Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[Madame]

Full value voucher ?? Hmm vouchers have no value read the rules he listed
I believe (my thoughts ) the credit card co May thinks these vouchers are like airline vouchers and they are not - even airlines are a bit more flexible than this - you at least have a chance to use your airline voucher.

I think those filing a charge back are going to have to get very detailed (broken contract, forced to accept new contract, David’s ability to revoke/change said contract on a whim) if they want to see a reimbursement. That’s why many of us owners are angry - we are supposed to give the money back, & THIS is what renters are getting???

I knew the voucher system would make a chargeback harder. That’s exactly why the only consistent messaging coming from David’s to ALL owners is to not cancel the reservation - then renters would be due a refund. Owners, however, don’t want to be the party breaking the contract and perhaps subjecting themselves to further liability. This is so shady...

 

[WDWEPCOT]

I’m on both sides - I rented and rented out - I myself contacted one of my renters and David was onboard then he stopped speaking to my renter -?? Their new dates are coming up I guess I will contact them again and see what is going on if they were offered a voucher and accepted it ?? I’m holding no hope for my 30% and I have 2 more rentals this year
As for my rental - he flat refused to even deal with me nice ammunition for the charge back

 

[Henwen88]

Do you happen to recall what they charged to act as the intermediary for point transfers? I may end up with more points than I can use next year and definitely don’t want to do any rentals. But I’ve also been gun shy about transfers to strangers. An intermediary would take that worry away.

I actually transferred to a 'stranger' from an ad on the rent/trade board. We had a contract, did the whole 3 way call to MS to confirm points, paypal payment then immediate transfer. I agree that it was a bit scary knowing the finality of the transaction and ALL of the things that could go wrong though! I would also be interested in the fees for the board sponsor for transfers.

 

[tubtruck]

People saying the voucher has no value are inncorect. It has a value of what people initially paid for in points. It only has no value if not redeemed or if David goes out of business. At present he is still in business. The voucher is not dependent on anyone having the exact same owner provide the points, in the same way as cancelled flight voucher used on the same route will not have the same crew, plane or pilot.
As I mentioned many pages ago, my own experience of chargeback, I think it unlikely in the present circumstances that people will get a successful chargeback from their credit card company given David’s initial terms and their “over and above” offer of a voucher.

 

[McCrae]

Right, they believe the voucher program is a solution I'm sure.

I would be surprised if David's hadn't taken legal advice and are responding based on that. If they were not confident why would they respond so quickly? Time will tell.

Interesting to note that in Europe the EU has ruled that airlines can issue vouchers and are not required to make cash refunds.

 

[Bowen Family]

Another poster said: People saying the voucher has no value are inncorect. It has a value of what people initially paid for in points. It only has no value if not redeemed or if David goes out of business. At present he is still in business. The voucher is not dependent on anyone having the exact same owner provide the points, in the same way as cancelled flight voucher used on the same route will not have the same crew, plane or pilot.
As I mentioned many pages ago, my own experience of chargeback, I think it unlikely in the present circumstances that people will get a successful chargeback from their credit card company given David’s initial terms and their “over and above” offer of a voucher.
[/QUOTE]


Honest question. Do airlines include caveats like these when offering their vouchers:

1. David's Vacation Club Rentals reserves the right to change, add, modify, or eliminate any element of the Credit or any type of service or activity currently available with the Credit.
2. Credit represents full and final satisfaction of any and all obligations set out in the original Rental Agreement and David's Vacation Club Rentals is released from any further rights, obligations or performance of the original Rental Agreement.

Because these are my primary concerns with the voucher. These give David’s permission to keep or cancel the credit without cause, and by accepting these terms you’ve given them that permission without any recourse.

So let’s say my current owner rebooks or uses the points I’ve already paid for. They’re made whole. Great! I’m glad for them.

But I use my credit to book either a cash room or DVC res and the resorts close again. Or David’s just doesn’t have the cash in reserve or available points to make good on the credit. David’s keeps either the cash room refund from Disney, or if DVC, my original payment for my current res. And the renter gets what exactly? Nothing.

So how does all of this compare to airline vouchers? Because airlines offer a service they own. Much different scenario here.

 

[cmrdgrs]

Agree with this. I’d appeal to the credit card. What happens if David’s goes out of business? These vouchers will be worth nothing and you won’t be able to file with credit card because you will be out of the window to file claims (I think this window varies by credit card).

I would highlight the following:

1) terms of the voucher - the cancelation part in particular

2) that you have no new signed agreement with the original owner that rented you the points. This broker works off of agreements. Where is the new signed agreement.

IMO, the credit card company will not care about the argument the broker could go under.

 

[cmrdgrs]

Another poster said: People saying the voucher has no value are inncorect. It has a value of what people initially paid for in points. It only has no value if not redeemed or if David goes out of business. At present he is still in business. The voucher is not dependent on anyone having the exact same owner provide the points, in the same way as cancelled flight voucher used on the same route will not have the same crew, plane or pilot.
As I mentioned many pages ago, my own experience of chargeback, I think it unlikely in the present circumstances that people will get a successful chargeback from their credit card company given David’s initial terms and their “over and above” offer of a voucher.


Honest question. Do airlines include caveats like these when offering their vouchers:

1. David's Vacation Club Rentals reserves the right to change, add, modify, or eliminate any element of the Credit or any type of service or activity currently available with the Credit.
2. Credit represents full and final satisfaction of any and all obligations set out in the original Rental Agreement and David's Vacation Club Rentals is released from any further rights, obligations or performance of the original Rental Agreement.

Because these are my primary concerns with the voucher. These give David’s permission to keep or cancel the credit without cause, and by accepting these terms you’ve given them that permission without any recourse.

So let’s say my current owner rebooks or uses the points I’ve already paid for. They’re made whole. Great! I’m glad for them.

But I use my credit to book either a cash room or DVC res and the resorts close again. Or David’s just doesn’t have the cash in reserve or available points to make good on the credit. David’s keeps either the cash room refund from Disney, or if DVC, my original payment for my current res. And the renter gets what exactly? Nothing.

So how does all of this compare to airline vouchers? Because airlines offer a service they own. Much different scenario here.

The airlines are getting bailouts

 

[DisneyBB]

I would be surprised if David's hadn't taken legal advice and are responding based on that. If they were not confident why would they respond so quickly? Time will tell.

Interesting to note that in Europe the EU has ruled that airlines can issue vouchers and are not required to make cash refunds.

when did the EU rule on that?

 

[CraigInPA]

People saying the voucher has no value are inncorect. It has a value of what people initially paid for in points. It only has no value if not redeemed or if David goes out of business. At present he is still in business. The voucher is not dependent on anyone having the exact same owner provide the points, in the same way as cancelled flight voucher used on the same route will not have the same crew, plane or pilot.
As I mentioned many pages ago, my own experience of chargeback, I think it unlikely in the present circumstances that people will get a successful chargeback from their credit card company given David’s initial terms and their “over and above” offer of a voucher.

The voucher has value only if it can be redeemed. If you want to stay on a particular date, there has to be availability. If there is no availability, the voucher has no value. David's, and David's alone, tells you whether there is availability, which is a situation ripe for abuse. A certain number of voucher holders may never redeem the voucher based upon their own circumstances changing. A renter accepting the voucher, with the wording allowing David's to change the terms or cancel it at any time for any reason, is accepting a lesser product than what they initially agreed to purchase. These vouchers have a stated value of $0 because David's does not want to issue refunds. They are chits for product he sells, and can't be used or exchanged elsewhere. It's my theory that in the event of bankruptcy, the travel industry underwriting insurance may say these vouchers have a value of $0 because there is no other Canadian travel agency that will accept them with any value.

Having been in the payment card industry for 40 years, I can tell you that it is highly likely that chargebacks will be successful. Credit card issuers tend to side with their customers, not the merchants, unless that customer has a pattern of disputes. Beyond David's agreement, there exists consumer protection laws regarding paying for a particular product and it not being given that product. Despite David's insistence that the terms were "no refunds, no changes", he failed to deliver the reservation. He is in breach, and he needs to make good on that. The vouchers are not in the original agreement, and they are not out of the goodness of his heart, they are specifically designed to prevent people from issuing chargebacks. David's knows his company will likely lose every chargeback, so decreasing the number of chargebacks filed is the goal.

 

[cmrdgrs]

People saying the voucher has no value are inncorect. It has a value of what people initially paid for in points. It only has no value if not redeemed or if David goes out of business. At present he is still in business. The voucher is not dependent on anyone having the exact same owner provide the points, in the same way as cancelled flight voucher used on the same route will not have the same crew, plane or pilot.
As I mentioned many pages ago, my own experience of chargeback, I think it unlikely in the present circumstances that people will get a successful chargeback from their credit card company given David’s initial terms and their “over and above” offer of a voucher.

The original contract was signed with a particular owner. It is not just a contract with anyone - it is with a particular person, for a particular resort for specific dates. Where is the paperwork from the person I rented with on my reservation that was canceled assuring they will be able to rent to me again?

 

[CraigInPA]

when did the EU rule on that?

The EU, in the announcement that allowed the airlines to issue vouchers for future flights, specifically stated that they were doing this because of the high potential for the airlines entering bankruptcy if they did not.

In the US, the government has injected hundreds of millions of dollars into the airlines to keep them afloat and allow them to offer cash refunds.

 

[yankeesfan123]

https://online-learning.harvard.edu/course/contractsx-trust-promise-contract?delta=1
For anyone interested!

Its free.

 

[cmrdgrs]

If I were arguing for a chargeback I would focus on the original contract. No substitutions, no sublets, that the contract clearly ties you to a very particular owner.

 

[cmrdgrs]

https://online-learning.harvard.edu/course/contractsx-trust-promise-contract?delta=1
For anyone interested!

Its free.

But, this is more fun. After you take it let us know what you find out

 

[chicagodisneyguy]

Apologies if I missed it, but are there any reports of anyone that has successfully USED their voucher to book something...either a DVC stay or cash stay?

 

[yankeesfan123]

But, this is more fun. After you take it let us know what you find out

I’m already a lawyer but I need continuing education credits so I might take it anyways!

 

[yankeesfan123]

Apologies if I missed it, but are there any reports of anyone that has successfully USED their voucher to book something...either a DVC stay or cash stay?

I doubt there will be any issues at this early stage in actually being able to “book” using the voucher. But I could be wrong.

Personally, I’m more concerned about actually booking the room and resort I actually want, and then what might happen in David’s goes under if I don’t use the voucher for a year or two.

 

[fancymouse]

I hope this is okay to ask here, but I've looked elsewhere for how other brokers are handling the situation and seen nowhere near as much specific information. Are other big brokers handling their rentals differently? On a different platform someone mentioned that another big broker is giving refunds (I tried to name the broker, but the system seemed to think my post was spam, so I removed the name?? Sorry I am new to this). This sounded incorrect, but I wan't sure. I would think that all brokers would be in a similar situation, but if anyone has any insight on if there are other ways it was being handled I'd love to know! People on other platforms seem quick to make it sound as if one company is better than another right now, but to me they all seem similar (at least in this situation).

We rented points through David's for November, so I have been actively following this thread partially out of invested interest and partially out of curiosity. This is such a complicated situation all around!

 

[Bowen Family]

Apologies if I missed it, but are there any reports of anyone that has successfully USED their voucher to book something...either a DVC stay or cash stay?

I’ve been following this and other threads pretty closely to try and gauge which way this voucher system is going. My totally unofficial scoreboard so far from the posts I’ve read:

Rebookings: no reports yet

CC Chargebacks: multiple claims filed. Seems June will be the earliest we’ll see outcomes.

CC Travel Insurance claim: one recent report it was denied on basis of voucher, but option to re-file within 1 year if voucher not used.

Anyone else have a different tally? Maybe this should become its own thread...