Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

Lots of great information on this thread with lots of opinions.

My gut is telling me to contact my renters and ask them what they want to do. I would love to Reschedule them myself or even refund the 70% directly to them. However my head is saying that I would open myself up to no end of problems. Mine is time sensitive so I need to act or lose my points and potentially my money.

David has said it is ok to contact the renters but should I copy him in to ensure there is no breach?

I know it’s a risk to breach, so I would make sure that everyone is in on the conversation and that you get acknowledgement from all once things are done.

I have an August rental and have decided not to breach. As we get closer, I may contact the renter to let them know the reservstion is secure, regardless of whether or not I get my final payment,

But, if resorts are open, I will let the reservation stay and will no change it, even if it means I lose the 111 points because I don’t want to be in a position to say I have to refund.
 
I agree with what is right to do here, in a moral sense. But David told me the exact opposite. David does not want me to contact the renter (trip reservation at the end of May).

Yet David told me precisely that if my reservation is cancelled by Disney and David can not re-rent the points by the end of my use year then I lose the 30%. David has stated repeated the renter will not get any cash refund.

Of the three parties only David has no claim on the 30%. Yet in writing and in public David has proclaimed he is keeping it.

It is so confusing. I was told ok to contact and that if I refunded it would towards the travel voucher. I would rather the renter got refunded. But I dont think I am the one in control of this and just want to ensure I don’t, by accident, cause more issues that some how negates the contract.

So from some of the answers here. Even if the points are expiring David is still asking for the money back?
 
Assuming the Rental Broker's survive this, I fully expect that going forward they will have a policy in plain to rent points in the first 8 months of their current use year; and keep reservations fully refundable. Those points would all be in a state in which they are able to be canceled and bankable. Payment terms would probably have to be 100% at check in, held in escrow.

Maybe they will have a section, for distressed points which will be non refundable. With distressed points being any point that would not be bankable if reservation cancelled.

Ultimately, I expect the rental market to take a huge hit. Owners aren't going to be interested in possibly losing points.

If fully refundable, renters would be cancelling if a better deal came along. Plus nothing upfront, I doubt owners would want their points tied up with no payment.
 
It is so confusing. I was told ok to contact and that if I refunded it would towards the travel voucher. I would rather the renter got refunded. But I dont think I am the one in control of this and just want to ensure I don’t, by accident, cause more issues that some how negates the contract.

So from some of the answers here. Even if the points are expiring David is still asking for the money back?
IMO what you are being asked for is a fraud. It is a possible outcome a renter does not want the voucher but loses a charge back. If David has the 70% back and does not issue refunds, as Dave has stated, then Dave has his commission and he has all the owners money and lost nothing. Then he is using the owners money and/or the renter's money to 'fund' other vouchers and/or his salary.
 

I know it’s a risk to breach, so I would make sure that everyone is in on the conversation and that you get acknowledgement from all once things are done.

I have an August rental and have decided not to breach. As we get closer, I may contact the renter to let them know the reservstion is secure, regardless of whether or not I get my final payment,

But, if resorts are open, I will let the reservation stay and will no change it, even if it means I lose the 111 points because I don’t want to be in a position to say I have to refund.

Why wouldn’t you get your final payment? If the resort is open then the contract is complete.

The other worry I have is if the renter wants a resort that is too far out to book, will David agree to a open contract that allows me to wait to book? Or will the renter have to choose something that I can book now? It would be so much easier to do my own thing.
 
IMO what you are being asked for is a fraud. It is a possible outcome a renter does not want the voucher but loses a charge back. If David has the 70% back and does not issue refunds, as Dave has stated, then Dave has his commission and he has all the owners money and lost nothing. Then he is using the owners money and/or the renter's money to 'fund' other vouchers and/or his salary.
Quite this is one of my concerns for the renter.
 
Assuming the Rental Broker's survive this, I fully expect that going forward they will have a policy in plain to rent points in the first 8 months of their current use year; and keep reservations fully refundable. Those points would all be in a state in which they are able to be canceled and bankable. Payment terms would probably have to be 100% at check in, held in escrow.

Maybe they will have a section, for distressed points which will be non refundable. With distressed points being any point that would not be bankable if reservation cancelled.

Ultimately, I expect the rental market to take a huge hit. Owners aren't going to be interested in possibly losing points.
David’s has already amended their renter’s agreement to include a force majeure. No refunds, even in the event of an act of God, pandemic, etc.

https://dvcrequest.com/dvc-owners/sample-guest-invoice
12. In the event of a Force Majeure (as defined in this paragraph), each party shall be excused from any future performance of obligations under this agreement; provided, however that if Intermediary has collected 100% of the funds for the reservation from Renter, Intermediary will provide to Renter a Credit which is limited in value to the amount paid for the reservation which is _______________ US Dollars on such terms and conditions as determined by Intermediary in its sole discretion, as soon as is reasonably possible after the condition(s) constituting the Force Majeure event is/are notified by Intermediary to Renter and Owner. A Force Majeure is an event beyond the Intermediary’s reasonable control which renders performance of a rental reservation with respect to Owner’s rented points impossible or substantially impaired, including without limitation, acts of God, acts of government, embargoes, war, riot, epidemic, pandemic, natural disaster, governmental order restrictions and Disney Vacation Club closures or cancellation of reservations.

So, it appears that he will continue to offer vouchers with vague terms of use to renters under these conditions. He will not offer a complete refund. And he will continue to screw owners.

Bye bye, David. Good luck getting any owner to allow you to tie up their points for up to 11 months and then tell them “So sad, too bad. I’m covering my own *** but I’ll hang yours out to dry”
 
/
If David's said the contract is frustrated, would owners be in violation of contract if they worked directly with renter??? There is no contract... So is everything he is saying outside the contract lol
 
Hi everyone!

I have a reservation with David's DVC in May and I contacted them earlier this month to see if they can get in touch with the owner to reschedule my trip to a later date. I'm a nurse right in the epicenter of COVID 19, therefore I knew the situation was looking bleak and Disney would not be up and running in May. They sent me a canned email response just like their replies on Facebook. I know they are inundated with cancelled reservations from March and April, so the chances of them of working on my May reservation is slim to none, but I gave them a head ups to try to work things out with the owner this way they don't lose any points.

Should I initiate a CC charge back the day I'm supposed to check-in? I used my Chase Sapphire back in October and their site does not mention anything about a charge back time frame. I also prepaid my dining plan with Disney gift cards. How will I get that money back?
 
I agree with what is right to do here, in a moral sense. But David told me the exact opposite. David does not want me to contact the renter (trip reservation at the end of May).

Yet David told me precisely that if my reservation is cancelled by Disney and David can not re-rent the points by the end of my use year then I lose the 30%. David has stated repeated the renter will not get any cash refund.

Of the three parties only David has no claim on the 30%. Yet in writing and in public David has proclaimed he is keeping it.
While the renter would not get a cash refund from David, he would be getting a credit voucher (with some onerous terms, but still a credit voucher). And yes, if the contract is deemed frustrated, it would seem David is entitled to retain the rest of the 30% due to the owner, and use it to fund his travel voucher scheme. The owner would have the recourse to take David to court in Canada, but I doubt it is worth the trouble and the expense for $4 per point. It is an unfortunate situation, and a zero-sum game - everyone has to share in the loss.
 
I've read some more stuff and done some more research since I last posted. I've altered my opinion of things slightly:

Renters:
Do a chargeback if you can. Especially if David's is refusing a refund. Get made whole. In my opinion, these vouchers he's offering are funny money in every sense of the word. Take the cash and use it to rebook your dream vacation on your own terms. Chances are good you're going to see a LOT of really great deals coming up for travel outside of David's. You can negotiate a MUCH better deal with MUCH better terms. The global economy is going to be in recession. Good deals on vacations and travel are going to be plentiful. If you are within your 120-day to 180-day window that your credit card allows a chargeback...do it. I believe your chances of success are high. Even if David's goes out of business/bankrupt you are still very likely to get your money back. (See my previous post in this thread about how charge backs work)

Owners:
I am not a lawyer, and this is a complicated mess. This is not legal advice. In my opinion, David's is probably correct when he says the contract is frustrated. The legal theory originates in English Common Law and it has equivalents in both US and Canadian law. The theory is called The Doctrine of Impossibility: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossibility

Essentially, because David's contracts didn't have a force majeure clause in them, then that usually means the Doctrine of Impossibility applies. Basically, it states that if it later becomes impossible for one or more parties to a contract to fulfill their obligations, then the whole contract becomes void. Canada has a similar legal theory called The Doctrine of Frustration. Reference: http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/96166_01

If this contract were governed under US law, then the Doctrine of Impossibility would void the contract as a whole, and David's could then sue the owner for unjust enrichment for the amount of money that David's paid the owner. It is pretty cut and dried as a matter of US law...There are few exceptions to this, and I don't think any of them would apply in this situation.

But it gets VERY interesting! The contract between DVC owners and David's covered under Canadian Law! Here is the relevant "Frustrated Contract Act" that applies in Canada: http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/96166_01

It boils down to the same GENERAL principle... if a contract cannot be fulfilled by one or more parties to the contract because of an unforeseeable event, then the whole contract is cancelled. If parts have already been fulfilled, then those parts can stand. Payment under the contract is not considered one of the "obligations" in respect to partial fulfillment of the obligations....so just because David's has paid you, it's not considered to have partially fulfilled the contract. Basically, cash can be undone...you can just pay the other guy back...but goods and services are a lot harder to undo.

BUT...there is a BUT....



I have bolded the section that I think is relevant here...be sure to expand the quote above to see the whole thing

Others on this board have said that David's website has explicitly stated that the owner WILL get paid whether the renter checks in or not. If that's true, then I believe that becomes an implied term of the contract.

Part of it will also depend on what David's did previously in regards to cancellations beyond the control of both the renter and the owner...hurricanes come to mind. What did David's do in those situations where a renter couldn't check in? I know there have been a couple hurricanes that prevent people from checking in while David's has been operating. If he previously ate the loss and paid owners while refunding the renter, then it could create a history of providing insurance and likely makes David's the one on the hook.

Another question is what are other rental brokerage services doing? Are they effecting an insurance against these losses? If so, David's could get swept up in it.

Those are all questions for a judge to decide.

IF the judge decides that there is implied insurance in what David's offered, then David's would likely owe the owner for the full obligation. i.e. the owner did everything on their end...and David's provided an insurance that the owner would be paid. The owner would still get paid. There is a chance that the judge will say that the owner gets to keep the 70% but David's doesn't have to pay the remaining 30% since the contract is frustrated.

IF the judge decides that the whole contract is frustrated, and voids the whole thing...i.e. there is no implied insurance...this would reverse everything...including any payments that anybody has made...including the payment from David's to the owner. However... then we go on to the Restitution portion of the law:



You could claim restitution for your partial performance under the contract. You booked a reservation and did the things you were required to do that you could still do. The restitution must only consist of reasonable expenditures. You cannot take in to account the loss of profits or if you get paid any insurance money. Additionally, the court would take in to account any benefits which remain with the party claiming restitution (i.e. you got your points back...what is the state of those points...etc)

IMO, IF your points are in a reasonably good position...they are bankable, not at risk of expiring, etc...then you likely owe David's all of the money back, and can't claim any damages...you MIGHT be able to claim that the points are now worth less than they were originally because a banked point is not as flexible as a current use-year point...etc...But basically: If DVC made you whole on points, then you don't get to claim restitution on those "expenses" because there weren't any.

If your points are in one of those weird states where you could still deposit them in to RCI but no longer bank them, then you might be able to make some sort of quasi claim...at least you could claim the booking fees for RCI..I'm not sure but you'd be on shaky ground here. You might be better off not depositing them in to RCI and letting them expire so you could claim what I theorize below...

IF your points are in a distressed state...i.e. they are expired, can no longer be banked, were banked points that will expire before the resorts open, etc. or are otherwise generally lost..then you can likely make a claim against David's for costs:

this means that you could claim reasonable "losses" of your costs on those points. Probably equal to your cost of purchasing those points for that year from DVC (purchase price of points, divided by number of years in the contract), plus reasonable interest on that money (time value of money), plus the annual dues for those points. You might be able to add some reasonable cost of your time in booking the reservations, managing, etc...All told, i'd guess you'd get about half the TOTAL money that you would've otherwise been paid by David's for any points that would be lost.

Again...it's a jumbled mess, and largely depends on your INDIVIDUAL circumstances as an owner.

At least, that is all my humble opinion as someone who is not really well versed in Canadian Contract Law. In reality, you should probably talk to a lawyer if it DOES come to that. I will say it again: I am not a lawyer and I am not giving legal advice. I am just a law/contract nerd who watches a lot of REALLY boring YouTube.

Now with that very interesting Legal hypothesis out of the way...let's get a bit more practical...Let's talk about the feasability of David's actually going after an owner for the money that was paid by David's to the owner. I am not suggesting that anyone do anything with this information, or take any actions based on my opinion here. You should definitely consult with a lawyer to get real advice. This is just a thought experiment I am working through in my head.

David's ability to actually recover money from an owner he has paid is probably pretty low. It's already been discussed that it's very likely David's has been paying owners through the "send cash to friends/family" function of PayPal. If that's true, then that pretty much means that he will be unable to forcibly reverse the transaction via PayPal. That would've been the "quick and easy" way to get his money back, if it would've been successful. He will likely actually have to file a law suit and collect on that law suit to get his money back.

Let's get a bit realistic about actually filing suit against hundreds, if not thousands, of owners. A lawyer that is advocating for David's is not going to take these cases pro bono. David's would be required to pay any filing fees up front for all of these suits. He would also have to pay his lawyer for their cost of preparing and filing the suit up front. All told, probably a few hundred dollars each...

Once he files the suit, he has to provide process service to the individual's he is suing. The people in Canada are probably relatively easy...just hire a process server and get it done. For the folks in the US, that likely becomes a much more difficult process. International process service is going to cost more. Again these are all expenses that David's pays up front.

Now that process service has happened, the court sets a hearing date...But guess what...the whole world has been shut down for months because of COVID! The courts are going to be very back logged. It will likely be many many months, if not a year or more before a court date rolls around. And that all depends on when courts reopen, and what changes they make to going through cases, and if those changes slow down their ability to handle cases.

Court date rolls around, you as the owner don't show up...so David's gets a default judgement. That would likely equal any money he's paid you plus the court costs and interest on that money. Great...he's now got a piece of paper that says you owe him money. Now he has to collect.

If you're in Canada, it's likely much easier...I don't know the ins/outs of Canadian judgement collections, but he can likely garnish your bank account, garnish your wages, and seize any assets you own.

If you're in the US, it's going to be MUCH harder. He would then have to file ANOTHER case in a US court to get his Canadian judgement recognized in the US. It's relatively straight forward, but he would have to hire a US attorney to do it, and that attorney would have to be local to the owner. Again, additional expense that David's has to pay upfront...likely another few hundred dollars...I think there may be process service as well in this step again...All of this will take time, backlogged courts closed because of COVID, etc...It could take ANOTHER 6-12 months. And at the end of that...he's got a piece of paper from a US court that says his piece of paper from a Canadian court is valid in the US. He now needs to collect on it.

Collecting on a judgement can be a difficult thing. You are generally allowed to garnish wages, bank accounts, file liens on property, etc. But he first has to know where you bank accounts are, where you work, and/or if/where you own property. In theory, he could attach to your DVC membership and file a Lien against that...that would only ever become relevant if you sold your DVC...It wouldn't prevent you from actually using it. But again, in order to find all of this information out, he would need to hire someone to find that information. All at his expense. Now, if he finds money, he can deduct his costs in collecting that money from his proceeds used to pay off your judgement to him...so if he's successful, you ultimately pay for all of these expenses. But if he's not successful in collecting money, then he's out the extra money.

All told, in his worst-case case (US owner, who stonewalls him) it would likely be 2-3 years before he would be able to collect any money by force and it would likely cost him about $2000, up front, to go about it. All of that time/hassle/expense to collect on what is likely about $1500-$3000? I don't believe that the cost/benefit analysis here would add up for that to be a feasible route for David's to go down.

David's can send some scary letters, demand that you pay him, those actions are cheap...but, in my opinion, actually forcing an owner to pay him back is going to be a long and expensive process with a low chance of successfully collecting money.
In this situation, even if as an owner I thought the right thing to do was to return the money, I STILL wouldn’t help fund David’s voucher scheme. I would demand the ability to directly pay my renter in exchange for a release of liability from both renter and broker.

Otherwise, sue me.

At the end of the day, my offer to repay is still far better than the expenses for Court. If I were gonna repay, it’d be on my terms and go back to the renter or not at all.
 
In his latest contract, #7"Credit can be used for any service offered by David's Vacation Club Rentals including but not limited to Point Rentals, Cash Bookings at Disney owned resorts, Cruise Bookings or Adventure by Disney bookings.", he is offering renters to do a cash booking with Disney. If this is truely a cash reservation, then it should be refundable per Disney. But he states that this is nonrefundable as well. So, in the case of another closure (eg, pandemic), Disney would allow Davids to cancel the reservation, then he pockets the money!! I can't imagine this is legal in any country, especially Canada. If he really has the money to make a cash reservation for you, then he should allow you have the same benefits as other Disney guests.

Also, -“In the case of Point Rentals, upon requesting a reservation with your credit code, you will be asked to authorize a new deposit. Once the code has been confirmed, your deposit will be refunded and the reservation process will continue. " I have already paid him a lot of money for him keep, why would I pay more money to check to see if they can find availability?

Too many issues with his new contract! Ugh!
 
Should I initiate a CC charge back the day I'm supposed to check-in? I used my Chase Sapphire back in October and their site does not mention anything about a charge back time frame. I also prepaid my dining plan with Disney gift cards. How will I get that money back?

I have the same card and initiated a charge back yesterday for my April reservation. I will let you all know how it goes.
 
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Updates for those interested in chargebacks: I called and filed a dispute last Tuesday. I still hadn't received any email stating that my case was open, so I called back (I'm using a Signature VISA credit card). I actually somehow managed to get the exact same customer service rep on the phone again and asked him if he was the only person working (since I had to hold for about 20 minutes). He stated that my case is still being investigated and it takes anywhere from 30-90 days to full resolve. They will send the confirmation via snail mail but he stated that the charges are now put on hold and to not pay them on my CC. Obviously that doesn't help as I paid my money to David's back in September and fully pay off the CC every month. He did state that most communication for charge backs is via mail and if anything else was needed I would be contacted that way. He appologized that I hadn't recevied my letter yet, but did mention that there's been a lot of chargebacks lately. I'm hopeful this will get resolved positively for me as I still haven't even received the email offering a credit from David's yet.
 
Email from David about refunds


As you know we act as an intermediary between DVC owners and guests. As we have a contractual obligation to pay your DVC booking owner for the use of their points, we therefore have a no-refunds policy, as once the funds have been paid to the DVC booking owner, they are no longer in our control to be able to provide a refund. Due to the complexity of the point system and the fact that Owners may have to bank or borrow points in order to secure your reservation, cancellations, upgrades and date modifications are not permitted. We understand that through no act or omission of yours, ours, nor the DVC booking owner this reservation no longer exists.
Due to the incredible impact of the COVID19 pandemic, we have been forced to step outside of our policy in order to be more accommodating to the affected travelling families that had secured reservations that now have been cancelled by Disney due to the closure of Disney Resorts. While some owners have been eager to help, not many are in the position to issue refunds. Those who have offered points back, may have restrictions on those points that make them less than attractive for future travel.

In direct response to the COVID19 pandemic, with the assistance of our legal partners and as a token of our goodwill in alignment with Travel Industry Standards, we have come up with a program that gives guests time and choices in travel, when it is safe for them to do so. This Travel Credit will enable the guest to apply it towards another rental at a Disney Vacation Club Resort, or apply it towards other travel venues that we offer such as Disney Cruise Line, Adventures by Disney, Regular Disney Resort Bookings and Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines, subject to the guidelines and conditions of the Travel Credit. This travel credit has been extended to guests who have not been successful in arranging alternate dates using the points of their original DVC booking owner, and have not otherwise been compensated.
We have begun rolling out the travel credit terms and conditions and have sent this to you in a separate e-mail.
Please let us know if you have any additional questions or concern.
 
Why wouldn’t you get your final payment? If the resort is open then the contract is complete.

The other worry I have is if the renter wants a resort that is too far out to book, will David agree to a open contract that allows me to wait to book? Or will the renter have to choose something that I can book now? It would be so much easier to do my own thing.

At this point, I don’t trust this company at all, I am resolved to lose it and quite frankly, have no desire to make any type of concessions,

That means, no rescheduling either, If I was doing this privately, I’d be more willing to help out. But I refuse to deal through Davids anymore, which means no variance from the contract I have.
 
Please be aware that there are several owners on this thread who have clearly mentioned that they might re-rent the returned points and keeping their 70%. Some of these owners might be giving you advise even though they are not legal experts!

Really? Several? I've been following along pretty closely and haven't seen this, but I admit that I could have missed it. I can certainly understand your frustration if you've seen several owners posting this and I realize that you acknowledge you've seen owners trying to help as well. From what I've seen, the owners are trying to understand legally what they're obligated to do while clearly acknowledging that they want to help the renters in any way they can. At the end of the day, it isn't right for any party to take a loss in this situation, but unfortunately, its clear that many will.
 
You say that but last week we rented points with them for next February - the points went live one day, the agreement was secured the next day and I had received 70 of the money in my account the next day.

If money was a problem, surely they wouldn't have passed me the 70% of my agreement so quickly?

I'm concerned with what im reading on here but my experience has been pretty positive so far. I just hope the hotels are open by February 2021! Haha.

assuming David’s is NOT around when your 30% is due. What would you do? I’d also assume that you would also know well in advance if he wasn’t.
 
Really? Several? I've been following along pretty closely and haven't seen this, but I admit that I could have missed it. I can certainly understand your frustration if you've seen several owners posting this and I realize that you acknowledge you've seen owners trying to help as well. From what I've seen, the owners are trying to understand legally what they're obligated to do while clearly acknowledging that they want to help the renters in any way they can. At the end of the day, it isn't right for any party to take a loss in this situation, but unfortunately, its clear that many will.
Yep, several and not just on this thread. As I mentioned that I believe most owners are willing to help. If you have read my other posts, I have acknowledged that some owners might not be in a position to help (eg, losing points), but others are, so I wanted to make sure that all new owners in this thread to know that just because some owners are very active on this thread, does not mean that they are legal experts and she shouldn't assume that their words are actual facts.
 
If that is the model, I think he will have trouble finding as many owners who will engage with him,

If I decide to rent again, I won’t be using him. And, if I wanted to, I certainly wouldn’t in a refundable situation.

Id rent on my own and take less.
Sandy, you can rent on your own just fine. Posting for less than what David charges will still be more than he paid you. I like having a conversation with my renter even before the contract is signed. I want them to feel comfortable with me and explain/answer any questions they may have. Makes the whole process so much better..They always have my number to reach me any time. You can do it!!
 












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