Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[starry_solo]

I remain open-minded and sympathetic, if there is another way that the renter and lender could share in the loss caused by the intermediary’s default, let me know. This is also purely hypothetical, David is not bankrupt yet. But I don’t see a good reason why an owner needs to go through with a rental at 50% of the market value, just because the broker is broke.

why don’t you just send the renters the portion of the money back that you have?

 

[Sandisw]

To clarify - David only passed over 50% of the market value of the points, and points that were blocked for 10 months, and in holding, don’t have nearly the same value as “fresh points”. So, yes, once David defaults, if the renter is not willing to do chargeback and rerent, I would have the points back and the 50% as compensation for losing money on the first reservation and now other points in holding status. And the renter should have all the money back.

So, you are not concerned about breaching those other contracts? If you cancel, you are obligated to return the money

Obviously, David’s would have to sue you, I get that if he defaults on one contract, you would want out of the others, but not sure I understand why you think you get to breach and still keep money?

 

[Sandisw]

I remain open-minded and sympathetic, if there is another way that the renter and lender could share in the loss caused by the intermediary’s default, let me know. This is also purely hypothetical, David is not bankrupt yet. But I don’t see a good reason why an owner needs to go through with a rental at 50% of the market value, just because the broker is broke.

I don’t think you need to go through with it, but I don’t think you should keep the money when you are the one breaking the contract

 

[Grnl706]

I remain open-minded and sympathetic, if there is another way that the renter and lender could share in the loss caused by the intermediary’s default, let me know. This is also purely hypothetical, David is not bankrupt yet. But I don’t see a good reason why an owner needs to go through with a rental at 50% of the market value, just because the broker is broke.

Good for you I guess?

 

[Amymouse13]

Yeah. That's fraud. Good luck if your renters or David's decide to sue you. Posting here is pretty much stating your intent to defraud, so you should hope none of the parties follows along here and know your identity. Cancel your reservations now and return the money if you have no intention of honoring them. Anything else is violating your contract and pretty scummy.

Maybe David's is hiring?

 

[BWV Dreamin]

If a owner has received any payment for points for a reservation, And that reservation can not be honored due to an act of God, that renter should be refunded the money if the points are returned to the owner. Period. Where is the integrity here? This is part of the risk when one decides to “rent” their points. I don’t know how people can live with themselves.

 

[Bing Showei]

I would love to keep the reservations in place, but having 5 more reservations with David's through the end of 2020, I am not ready to take that big of a loss. So here's my plan:
1. Once David's 30% is due for the first reservation, I will send him a payment reminder
2. Three business days later, I will send David a notice of default and will advise that I will cancel the other reservations
3. Three more business days later, I will reach out to the 4 remaining renters to advise of David's default, explain their reservations need to be canceled, and suggest to them to initiate a credit card chargeback. If they choose to, they can re-instate their reservation by sending over 50% of the reservation cost. This is a fantastic saving for the renter, plus an additional choice - if they pass, I will have some points in holding status, which are still better than renting them out at $10/point.

If you feel this strongly about it, why not cancel those future reservations and send David’s their money back? No future reservation at this point will go into holding.

If you’re just holding onto the money to see if you could double-dip, I hope any renter who comes across a self-proclaimed, blood-sucking DISboard member on the Rent/Trade board does their due diligence and looks at their posting history.

 

[Dracula]

I don’t think you need to go through with it, but I don’t think you should keep the money when you are the one breaking the contract

I think David breaks the contract first when and if he defaults on the residual payment for the first reservation. I understand the second renter is innocent of David’s default, but the second renter has chargeback as a recourse, whereas the owner would be left to lose on all subsequent reservations.

 

[Dracula]

If you feel this strongly about it, why not cancel those future reservations and send David’s their money back? No future reservation at this point will go into holding.

If you’re just holding onto the money to see if you could double-dip, I hope any renter who comes across a self-proclaimed, blood-sucking DISboard member on the Rent/Trade board does their due diligence and looks at their posting history.

Because canceling any reservation before David is in default would be breaking my contract with David. I had multiple successful contracts with David and I hope he avoids bankruptcy and stays in business so we can do more in the future. This is all very hypothetical, assuming David would become insolvent.

 

[Dracula]

If a owner has received any payment for points for a reservation, And that reservation can not be honored due to an act of God, that renter should be refunded the money if the points are returned to the owner. Period. Where is the integrity here? This is part of the risk when one decides to “rent” their points. I don’t know how people can live with themselves.

I agree that not receiving some of the money is part of the risk an owner takes when renting through an intermediary. But, is there any risk the renter also takes when renting through the same intermediary? Does a credit card company assume a risk when processing payments for a travel agency, and gets paid for it? And, if all these parties take a risk, is there a good reason why the entire loss should be borne by the owner? I would like to understand what is the owner’s share of the loss - but 100% of the residual payment does not seem fair.

 

[Dracula]

Quick personal story here, last year we had dinner with friends that told us how they are saving money to one day take the kids to VGF, where they supposedly got married. In turn, we introduced them to DVC and explained the rental business, and how David’s is market leader, has been quickly finding us customers etc. We also suggested that we do business among us, avoiding David’s commission - but since VGF is not one of our home resorts, and it is in fairly high demand thus risky to book at seven months, they went ahead with David’s and rented almost 600 points to go to VGF the first week of May with parents, in-laws, the whole clan.

Fast forward to April 2020, both my friend and my spouse, like so many others, have been furloughed. He is understandably anxious about the $11k+ reservation, and would rather cancel or at least reschedule for 2021. And we are so relieved for not having done business with our friends - if these were expiring points, it would have been a very difficult conversation as to what needs to happen next. I guess they would need to decide whether to do a chargeback or accept a credit voucher - I know what I would do but would rather not offer them any more advice.

 

[yankeesfan123]

Quick personal story here, last year we had dinner with friends that told us how they are saving money to one day take the kids to VGF, where they supposedly got married. In turn, we introduced them to DVC and explained the rental business, and how David’s is market leader, has been quickly finding us customers etc. We also suggested that we do business among us, avoiding David’s commission - but since VGF is not one of our home resorts, and it is in fairly high demand thus risky to book at seven months, they went ahead with David’s and rented almost 600 points to go to VGF the first week of May with parents, in-laws, the whole clan.

Fast forward to April 2020, both my friend and my spouse, like so many others, have been furloughed. He is understandably anxious about the $11k+ reservation, and would rather cancel or at least reschedule for 2021. And we are so relieved for not having done business with our friends - if these were expiring points, it would have been a very difficult conversation as to what needs to happen next. I guess they would need to decide whether to do a chargeback or accept a credit voucher - I know what I would do but would rather not offer them any more advice.

Yea you should probably not offer anyone your advice anymore.

 

[Sandisw]

I think David breaks the contract first when and if he defaults on the residual payment for the first reservation. I understand the second renter is innocent of David’s default, but the second renter has chargeback as a recourse, whereas the owner would be left to lose on all subsequent reservations.

I still don’t agree that the breach on his part of contract number 1, would give an owner the right to breach the rest and not return the funds,

You can certainly decide to do it, but there is no justification in my book that makes It right,

 

[meryll83]

So I emailed again and asked for a refund on our rental now we’re less than a week from when we were due to check in, and here’s the response I’ve received.

Any advice on what to do next? I really want to pursue a refund, and had been planning to look at doing a credit card chargeback, as the logistics of rescheduling are difficult for us, plus I have concerns over the integrity of the business...

Interestingly they almost imply they’re not even going to ask owners for anything in this latest email - nice for the owners if that’s the case!

There is some contradiction here, as they’ve previously indicated to me they could reach out to the owner to try and reschedule with another family... but again at this point they mentioned “some sort of credit”.

So is what they’re offering now fair and reasonable, and a chargeback claim would get rejected? Any help or advice would be much appreciated, thanks!

- - - - - - -

“I apologize for the delayed response.

I have extended our conversation to members of senior management and at this point the best resolution we can provide is to pursue the travel credit.

As you know we act as an intermediary between DVC owners and guests. As we have a contractual obligation to pay your DVC booking owner for the use of their points, we therefore have a no-refunds policy, as once the funds have been paid to the DVC booking owner, they are no longer in our control to be able to provide a refund. Due to the complexity of the point system and the fact that Owners may have to bank or borrow points in order to secure your reservation, cancellations, upgrades and date modifications are not permitted. We understand that through no act or omission of yours, ours, nor the DVC booking owner this reservation no longer exists.

Due to the incredible impact of the COVID19 pandemic, we have been forced to step outside of our policy in order to be more accommodating to the affected travelling families that had secured reservations that now have been cancelled by Disney due to the closure of Disney Resorts.

In direct response to the COVID19 pandemic, with the assistance of our legal partners and as a token of our goodwill in alignment with Travel Industry Standards, we have come up with a program that gives guests time and choices in travel, when it is safe for them to do so. This Travel Credit will enable the guest to apply it towards another rental at a Disney Vacation Club Resort, or apply it towards other travel venues that we offer such as Disney Cruise Line, Adventures by Disney, Regular Disney Resort Bookings and Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines, subject to the guidelines and conditions of the Travel Credit. This travel credit has been extended to guests who have not been successful in arranging alternate dates using the points of their original DVC booking owner, and have not otherwise been compensated.

As this credit program is still in its infancy, we do not have all of the details to disclose yet. I assure you that as soon as this information has been released I will pass this information along.

I know that this is not the answer that you were hoping to hear. Please know that we are doing everything we can to deal with all affected reservations, which now total over 2000. I welcome any further questions or concerns but will otherwise be in touch as soon as possible.“

 

[Sandisw]

So I emailed again and asked for a refund on our rental now we’re less than a week from when we were due to check in, and here’s the response I’ve received.

Any advice on what to do next? I really want to pursue a refund, and had been planning to look at doing a credit card chargeback, as the logistics of rescheduling are difficult for us, plus I have concerns over the integrity of the business...

Interestingly they almost imply they’re not even going to ask owners for anything in this latest email - nice for the owners if that’s the case!

There is some contradiction here, as they’ve previously indicated to me they could reach out to the owner to try and reschedule with another family... but again at this point they mentioned “some sort of credit”.

So is what they’re offering now fair and reasonable, and a chargeback claim would get rejected? Any help or advice would be much appreciated, thanks!

- - - - - - -

“I apologize for the delayed response.

I have extended our conversation to members of senior management and at this point the best resolution we can provide is to pursue the travel credit.

As you know we act as an intermediary between DVC owners and guests. As we have a contractual obligation to pay your DVC booking owner for the use of their points, we therefore have a no-refunds policy, as once the funds have been paid to the DVC booking owner, they are no longer in our control to be able to provide a refund. Due to the complexity of the point system and the fact that Owners may have to bank or borrow points in order to secure your reservation, cancellations, upgrades and date modifications are not permitted. We understand that through no act or omission of yours, ours, nor the DVC booking owner this reservation no longer exists.

Due to the incredible impact of the COVID19 pandemic, we have been forced to step outside of our policy in order to be more accommodating to the affected travelling families that had secured reservations that now have been cancelled by Disney due to the closure of Disney Resorts.

In direct response to the COVID19 pandemic, with the assistance of our legal partners and as a token of our goodwill in alignment with Travel Industry Standards, we have come up with a program that gives guests time and choices in travel, when it is safe for them to do so. This Travel Credit will enable the guest to apply it towards another rental at a Disney Vacation Club Resort, or apply it towards other travel venues that we offer such as Disney Cruise Line, Adventures by Disney, Regular Disney Resort Bookings and Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines, subject to the guidelines and conditions of the Travel Credit. This travel credit has been extended to guests who have not been successful in arranging alternate dates using the points of their original DVC booking owner, and have not otherwise been compensated.

As this credit program is still in its infancy, we do not have all of the details to disclose yet. I assure you that as soon as this information has been released I will pass this information along.

I know that this is not the answer that you were hoping to hear. Please know that we are doing everything we can to deal with all affected reservations, which now total over 2000. I welcome any further questions or concerns but will otherwise be in touch as soon as possible.“

IMO, I would initiate a charge back, unless you want to be able to rebook through this company down the road.

I don’t know how easy or hard it will be now that he has come up with a plan. But, you are correct in that they are no longer going to reach out to owners to try and reschedule.

 

[meryll83]

IMO, I would initiate a charge back, unless you want to be able to rebook through this company down the road.

I don’t know how easy or hard it will be now that he has come up with a plan. But, you are correct in that they are no longer going to reach out to owners to try and reschedule.

The chargeback being on the basis that I’m not getting what I paid for?
(Which was a specific accommodation rental at a specific time)

 

[Sandisw]

The chargeback being on the basis that I’m not getting what I paid for?
(Which was a specific accommodation rental at a specific time)

Yes, that is the argument. But you couldn’t do it until the reservation has actually been canceled and no longer available. if you go that route, I would certainly inform them after you proceed.

Like I said, I have heard of a successful one, but that is not to guarantee all CC will view it the same way,

Others May chime with with better advice, I have a renter checking in in August and I am already assuming the 30% I am owed won’t be sent,

 

[Dracula]

The chargeback being on the basis that I’m not getting what I paid for?
(Which was a specific accommodation rental at a specific time)

Correct - you can file a dispute with the credit card company and indicate that you have not received the goods or services promised. You will likely get an immediate refund, but may need to submit additional paperwork and explanations as to what actually happened in the coming weeks. This is for you, as a renter, the best option as you recover your expense and can book anything else in the future. But, as others have mentioned, there is no guarantee of success and the credit card company may determine the services were in fact provided - in which case you should still be left with the voucher. And if a lot of renters choose this option, David's is sure to go into bankruptcy, which would render the vouchers of all renters who accepted them worthless. It would basically be a run on the bank.

In principle the voucher terms sound very good, you should be able to use it on many choices - just not quite as good as the cash. However, I am not sure how accepting a voucher may impact your ability to pursue a credit card chargeback in the future, and in case of David's bankruptcy, the voucher would be worth zero.

 

[meryll83]

Correct - you can file a dispute with the credit card company and indicate that you have not received the goods or services promised. You will likely get an immediate refund, but may need to submit additional paperwork and explanations as to what actually happened in the coming weeks. This is for you, as a renter, the best option as you recover your expense and can book anything else in the future. But, as others have mentioned, there is no guarantee of success and the credit card company may determine the services were in fact provided - in which case you should still be left with the voucher. And if a lot of renters choose this option, David's is sure to go into bankruptcy, which would render the vouchers of all renters who accepted them worthless. It would basically be a run on the bank.

In principle the voucher terms sound very good, you should be able to use it on many choices - just not quite as good as the cash. However, I am not sure how accepting a voucher may impact your ability to pursue a credit card chargeback in the future, and in case of David's bankruptcy, the voucher would be worth zero.

If the refund is more or less immediate from a chargeback, but then the claim goes in favour of David’s, the bank would then ask me to repay them?

I may yet accept the credit, as I want to give all parties the benefit of the doubt, but I am concerned about the value of the credit voucher.
I suppose if David’s went bust, I could then try and claim via my travel insurance?

 

[yankeesfan123]

I’d love to hear success stories of chargebacks... is that worth starting a new thread for? Just like to know the sort of process people had to go through.