Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[Bearval]

I really don’t know - I believe someone posted all about credit cards and chargebacks in the thread awhile back - I’m just not sure if you could do one if you took the voucher but if they go under then maybe you could - because you would not be receiving what you paid for in the first place. But I’m no expert

I actually just googled it and that is what happened when Thomas Cook travel agency went bankrupt. People who paid for travel with credit cards were reimbursed if the disputed the charges.

 

[DisneyBB]

I really hope David doesn’t go out of business. I have two families renting from me through David. Originally they were going August and Sept but I asked them through David if they would like to change. They are now going in January. I will try and help them if David’s does go under. But my experience with him has been to opposite to others. He has been quick to respond and happy to work with me my renters.

 

[jennf]

I've been waiting a long time to post this as I was waiting on the final outcome.....

We had a split stay booked in March right at the beginning of the closure... I contacted Davids right away and David's agreed to refund me the first part of the trip (when he was still refunding if an owner refunded the $ back to him).

As we all know, issuing refunds to renters didn't last long and shortly after I received the first refund, I received an email that he couldn't refund the other portion of the split stay because they had not been able to reach/hear back from the second owner (I don't know if I believe that after reading through this entire thread from both owners & renters ).

At that point he offered the infamous voucher with all the new stipulations. Because of this helpful thread I decided not to respond to the voucher email and instead I put through a chargeback with Chase back in May.

Today, I just received a response back from Chase that we won. So glad that issue is resolved and in our favor....

The silver lining is that after this ordeal, we just had our offer accepted on our first resale contract so that in the future we have control of our own points if something like this happens again.

Thanks to everyone that contributed to the thread !!! I hope that others that went the chargeback route have the same outcome as we did and that for those that are using the voucher that everything works out for you as well.

 

[WDWEPCOT]

Wonderful News so happy for you!
Welcome Home Neighbor on your DVC purchase !

 

[YourEveryDayAdam]

If he goes bankrup can the people who took the vouchers still file a chargeback then? A few years ago I had a successful chargeback against a bankrup company, my understanding is the credit card company took the hit.

Yes, this is normal. For many reasons the liability chain goes all the through the credit card processing chain:
First the actual merchant is liable.
If they are bankrupt, out of business, etc. then the bank that they process the credit cards with is liable (An example of who this would be would be a company like PayPal, Venmo, etc...but for companies, not individual people)
Then the bank that issues your credit card is liable.

This is something that's actually baked in to US law for actual CREDIT cards, but Visa/Mastercard have both decided to extend those same protections to debit cards and visa/mastercard gift cards also.

 

[CarolynFH]

Yes, this is normal. For many reasons the liability chain goes all the through the credit card processing chain:
First the actual merchant is liable.
If they are bankrupt, out of business, etc. then the bank that they process the credit cards with is liable (An example of who this would be would be a company like PayPal, Venmo, etc...but for companies, not individual people)
Then the bank that issues your credit card is liable.

This is something that's actually baked in to US law for actual CREDIT cards, but Visa/Mastercard have both decided to extend those same protections to debit cards and visa/mastercard gift cards also.

But would the deadline to file a claim apply if the person accepts a voucher for a rental in 2020 (in lieu of a chargeback at that time) and then can't use it because the merchant goes bankrupt in 2021? In other words, are David's customers who have accepted vouchers now SOL if he goes bankrupt before they can use their vouchers?

 

[YourEveryDayAdam]

But would the deadline to file a claim apply if the person accepts a voucher for a rental in 2020 (in lieu of a chargeback at that time) and then can't use it because the merchant goes bankrupt in 2021? In other words, are David's customers who have accepted vouchers now SOL if he goes bankrupt before they can use their vouchers?

I am using this as my guide, and it follows my understanding: https://chargebacks911.com/chargeback-time-limit/
It depends on the policies of your bank, Visa, MasterCard, Etc.

To quote the limits for Visa for "Services Not Provided or Goods Not Received" disputes:

Under this reason code, if the delivery of goods or services can reasonably be expected after the actual transaction date--buying concert tickets a month before the event date, for example--chargeback time limits are calculated based on multiple criteria. First, the issuing bank must wait 15 calendar days before initiating a dispute. This time period starts on either

• The transaction date, if the date the expected goods/service delivery date was unspecified
• The date the Cardholder returned or attempted to return the merchandise (if the merchandise was returned due to late delivery)

Additionally, the dispute must be processed either

• Within 120 days of the last date the cardholder expects to receive the goods or services, not to exceed 540 calendar days from transaction; or
• Within 120 days of the date the cardholder was informed that the goods/services would not be provided, not to exceed 540 calendar days from transaction

Be sure to expand the quote to read the entire thing. I highlighted the relevant sections. Mastercard has similar exceptions to their time limits as well. Basically, the clock doesn't start ticking on Chargebacks for things like travel, hotels, concert tickets, etc. until you were to have expected to receive the goods/services up to a TOTAL maximum of 540 days. In the case of David's, that would basically be 120 days from the date of check in, up to about 1.5 years from the date you initially paid. Or 120 days from the date David's informed you that you wouldn't be able to check in, up to about 1.5 years from the date you initially paid.

You would be able to file your charge back up to 120 days after your latest anticipated delivery (check-in) date. So 120 days after your original check in date, or 120 days after your NEW check-in date if you rescheduled with a voucher. Again, up to a TOTAL maximum of 540 days (about 1.5 years).

The vouchers anticipated life span is 2 years or 3 years now? Obviously it's value from David's is anticipated to be valid WELL beyond the 1.5 years from the date the transaction hit your card that Visa/MasterCard protect you with Chargebacks. So it is very much possible that you would be left with a worthless voucher and no way to file a chargeback If David's goes bankrupt and you haven't checked in to the DVC room within 540 days of the charge hitting your card.

This is why my recommendation is: Don't accept the voucher. File the charge back and get your cash. It will always be good to buy a reservation later without any expiration date and from ANY vendor selling reservations...including Time Share Store, David's, another owner direct, or even Disney themselves...I anticipate there to be some REALLY good deals available direct from Disney to get folks to come back. Possibly even less expensive than the current going rental rates.

 

[YourEveryDayAdam]

LOL. The Deals from Disney have started! I just found out about Disney's Passholder 40% off for most DVC villas. So I did some comparison shopping:

SSR
Studio standard, direct from Disney is $1809.71 (taxes included). Cost from David's is $1,368
1 bedroom standard, direct from Disney for $2,469.21 (taxes included). Cost from David's is $2,698
2 bedroom standard is $3,583.61 direct or $3,572 from David's.

AKV
1 Bedroom standard view is $3,021.36 direct or $2,660 from David's.

BCV
Studio is $2,382.12 direct or $1,748 from David's.
2 bedroom direct is $4,860.01 or $4,446 from David's


So the cost benefit of going with David's is DEFINITELY diminished. It seems that David's still has better prices on Studios, but if you need something bigger, you can get good deals on 1BR or 2BR direct from Disney and not pay that much more than David's...or even get a better deal direct from Disney. Keep in mind that you will have all of Disney's baked in flexibility and protection of being able to cancel, as well as full daily house keeping!

 

[Best Aunt]

PP has an interesting point about comparing what Disney is charging versus what David’s is charging. But Disney isn’t doing full daily housekeeping these days:

https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/guest-services/housekeeping-service/

 

[Sandisw]

LOL. The Deals from Disney have started! I just found out about Disney's Passholder 40% off for most DVC villas. So I did some comparison shopping:

SSR
Studio standard, direct from Disney is $1809.71 (taxes included). Cost from David's is $1,368
1 bedroom standard, direct from Disney for $2,469.21 (taxes included). Cost from David's is $2,698
2 bedroom standard is $3,583.61 direct or $3,572 from David's.

AKV
1 Bedroom standard view is $3,021.36 direct or $2,660 from David's.

BCV
Studio is $2,382.12 direct or $1,748 from David's.
2 bedroom direct is $4,860.01 or $4,446 from David's


So the cost benefit of going with David's is DEFINITELY diminished. It seems that David's still has better prices on Studios, but if you need something bigger, you can get good deals on 1BR or 2BR direct from Disney and not pay that much more than David's...or even get a better deal direct from Disney. Keep in mind that you will have all of Disney's baked in flexibility and protection of being able to cancel, as well as full daily house keeping!

It is these types of discounts that will impact the rental market because for such a small savings...sometimes not even...it really makes the risk and lack of flexibility of renting less attractive.

Prices will need to come down I think to compete.

 

[Bearval]

It is these types of discounts that will impact the rental market because for such a small savings...sometimes not even...it really makes the risk and lack of flexibility of renting less attractive.

Prices will need to come down I think to compete.

Well i don't think his ad " save thousands " on your Disney vacation is correct now.

 

[Upatnoon]

Disney can move quickly to reduce rates to spur demand because they have far more information about what they need to do to fill rooms.

Eventually, the DVC rental market will catch up. It's more complicated for David's because he has to convince the people whose points he is renting to take less money.

 

[Bearval]

Disney can move quickly to reduce rates to spur demand because they have far more information about what they need to do to fill rooms.

Eventually, the DVC rental market will catch up. It's more complicated for David's because he has to convince the people whose points he is renting to take less money.

Would that happen to be the same people who fulfilled their portion of the contract but never received all of the funds promised?

 

[CraigInPA]

Disney can move quickly to reduce rates to spur demand because they have far more information about what they need to do to fill rooms.

Eventually, the DVC rental market will catch up. It's more complicated for David's because he has to convince the people whose points he is renting to take less money.

And that is the problem of the buyer/broker model David employs. He feels he deserves a 25% gross margin for acting as matchmaker and clearing house for the transaction. Whenever Disney heavily discounts, the savings he is offering gets smaller. In order to keep advertising those huge savings, he needs to shave his margin, get the owner to accept less, or both. If you eliminate him entirely from the equation, the savings magically re-appear with a swish of Tinkerbell's wand. So, the future of David's and other companies that use this model is to somehow come up with a competitive offering to Disney's discounting, whether it be additional perks, or heavy discounting. But, IMO, David's largest immediate and future competition is owners who no longer want to work with him (or any other broker), and choose to rent their points out directly.

 

[Upatnoon]

And that is the problem of the buyer/broker model David employs. He feels he deserves a 25% gross margin for acting as matchmaker and clearing house for the transaction. Whenever Disney heavily discounts, the savings he is offering gets smaller. In order to keep advertising those huge savings, he needs to shave his margin, get the owner to accept less, or both. If you eliminate him entirely from the equation, the savings magically re-appear with a swish of Tinkerbell's wand. So, the future of David's and other companies that use this model is to somehow come up with a competitive offering to Disney's discounting, whether it be additional perks, or heavy discounting. But, IMO, David's largest immediate and future competition is owners who no longer want to work with him (or any other broker), and choose to rent their points out directly.

There will always be owners who don't want to do any work and just want to give their points to someone to rent. Likewise, there will always people who want to rent points to save money, but fear dealing with an individual owner or don't want to do the work to find someone to rent from.

This leaves the door open for brokers if they can keep the price attractive enough, and market forces will eventually do that.

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

There will always be owners who don't want to do any work and just want to give their points to someone to rent. Likewise, there will always people who want to rent points to save money, but fear dealing with an individual owner or don't want to do the work to find someone to rent from.

This leaves the door open for brokers if they can keep the price attractive enough, and market forces will eventually do that.

Agreed, this does leave the issue of owners being liability for similar accommodations that I think was in the new contract.

 

[JayDubs]

I had a split stay booked in May through David’s. I disputed the charges with Capital One and just received confirmation (almost exactly 90 days from originally filing the disputes) that I had been successful in my chargeback and my case is now closed.

Including deposits, I had 4 charges on two separate Capital One credit cards. I was required to submit additional information (contracts and email correspondence). I was told in May that it would take up to 90 days and that’s almost exactly how long it took.

I’m so relieved I have this behind me and I’m wishing good luck to all of you still in the middle of the drama!

 

[CarolMN]

And that is the problem of the buyer/broker model David employs. He feels he deserves a 25% gross margin for acting as matchmaker and clearing house for the transaction. Whenever Disney heavily discounts, the savings he is offering gets smaller. In order to keep advertising those huge savings, he needs to shave his margin, get the owner to accept less, or both. If you eliminate him entirely from the equation, the savings magically re-appear with a swish of Tinkerbell's wand. So, the future of David's and other companies that use this model is to somehow come up with a competitive offering to Disney's discounting, whether it be additional perks, or heavy discounting. But, IMO, David's largest immediate and future competition is owners who no longer want to work with him (or any other broker), and choose to rent their points out directly.

While the Disboards has seen a definite uptick in usage, we mods have also had to issue a very large number of rejections - entirely due to people who do not read (or maybe do not understand) the rules before posting. That;s true for even long-term DIS DVC forum posters. Current rules have been in place since early 2011.

There's something to be said for working with someone who knows what he/she is doing - on both sides of the transaction.

 

[Dean Marino]

While the Disboards has seen a definite uptick in usage, we mods have also had to issue a very large number of rejections - entirely due to people who do not read (or maybe do not understand) the rules before posting. That;s true for even long-term DIS DVC forum posters. Current rules have been in place since early 2011.

There's something to be said for working with someone who knows what he/she is doing - on both sides of the transaction.

Well, there is yet another reason to be Leary of acting as an intermediate party, in DVC Rentals....

Lawsuits. Hundreds and hundreds of them. Were it me? I would strongly consider getting as far away from this business, as possible. But I'm not a mod.... just a DVC owner.

Ultimately - we donated the 2019 use year points that DVC intended to steal from us, to a lovely family able to DRIVE to WDW. "Rent your points" just got way too ugly - even with agencies. And I would suggest that others consider this approach.

One could "Rent", and face Litigation. Or? One could just offer those robbed points, FREE, to a wonderful family that can GET to WDW, and back HOME, in 2020 .

 

[New Mouse]

There will always be owners who don't want to do any work and just want to give their points to someone to rent. Likewise, there will always people who want to rent points to save money, but fear dealing with an individual owner or don't want to do the work to find someone to rent from.

This leaves the door open for brokers if they can keep the price attractive enough, and market forces will eventually do that.

Not after this debacle. I used to be in that crowd, but never again.