Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[dsnymnkyuncle]

Someone posted on this thread (I believe) that the payment comes (and maybe goes to?) Capital Technologies. Who knows what that means in PayPal's eyes. Capital Technologies, just by the name, IMO doesn't sound like a DVC point rental agency or a travel agency of some type, that's for sure.

For years those of us that rent our points privately have always wondered how David skirts the rules on PayPal about "timeshare transactions" being against their rules. I always just figured he brought PayPal so much money that he had some type of agreement with them to allow him to do these types of transactions. I still don't understand any of the payments, how Capital Technologies fits in the picture, or how any of this is allowed to happen without any type of Escrow account -- I'm sure I never will too.

You are correct about Capital Technologies. That was me and maybe others. That is the name of the company that paid me. The link led to Dave's web site I recall.

Keeping the funds in the general account, which is not segregated and must in fact be a personal account (at least in the US there is no hybrid business personal account that I know of) or a quirk of Canadian law.

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

And just where are you going to post the information
Is this a case of double secret probabtion?

The payments do come from Capitol Technologies and while I do have additional information on this setup, I will not post about it here other than to reiterate that David's is obviously tied to it.

 

[mustinjourney]

Because my intermediary agreement with David says:
7. The DVC Owner further agrees with the Intermediary to make full restitution to the Intermediary and a guest with an active reservation for any and all costs related to a cancellation of that reservation caused by or relating to the failure of the DVC Owner to honour the reservation or otherwise not comply with any obligation or responsibility of the DVC Owner under this agreement including, without limitation, any legal fees, costs and expenses associated with the collection of said costs.
8. The DVC Owner hereby agrees to indemnify Intermediary from and in respect of all losses, costs, damages and claims suffered or incurred by Intermediary as a result of the DVC Owner failing to fulfill any responsibility or comply with any obligation of DVC Owner hereunder.

David's obligations include:
4.f. Paying the DVC Owner for rented points used to secure reservations, at the price agreed with Intermediary, payable 70% after the reservation is made and 100% of the funds for the reservation have been collected by Intermediary from the guest, and the balance at the time of check-in.

I think I've mentioned this before, but there is something known as an "efficient" breach of contract, wherein you notify the parties involved that you are going to breach the contract and then you pay back the money you've received to the broker.

As far as the renter coming after you -- technically speaking, I don't see how they can sue you for anything. There is no "privity" between the owner and the renter. They'd have to go after David's and then David's would have to come after you. That just seems unlikely.

And as far as damages, when a contract is breached, the non-breaching party typically has a duty to mitigate their risk/damages. Right now -- park tickets, airlines, etc... can all pretty much be refunded. So I'm not sure how much someone could really be on the hook for. I suppose there is some risk there -- not sure what I would personally do -- but I don't see it as slam dunk that the owner loses and loses big.

Of course -- all of that is with respect to US law. What Canada does, I have no idea. So this could all be moot.

 

[mustinjourney]

I have looked into the crystal ball and I foresee that David’s will have problems fulfilling voucher rental request in the future to come.

yeah--that money is coming straight out of his pocket to the extent any point owners didn't return the 70%.

 

[meryll83]

So, he's issuing a partial cash refund of the 30% to renters (the 30% that some would argue he owes to the owner), and the voucher is only for the remaining 70%?

No matter how I do the math, it appears that he's using everyone else's money to solve the problem, but not giving up his cut. Maybe that's actually happening but, based on what his customers are reporting, it certainly doesn't seem so.

Oh, well done on at least getting a 30% refund! We’ve only been offered a voucher for the whole lot...

Anyone else been able to get even the 30% refunded?

 

[Sandisw]

I’m an owner with two rentals coming up through David’s. At first I was going to ask if I could contact the renter
but now I see why this would be unfair. If this was left to the individuals to sort out I would be offering my renters any booking until June next year, and would happily add another few points if necessary. Another owner may say the booking has to be before December and must be the same number of points or fewer. The fair way is to let all renters have 2 years to rebook, regardless of point expiry.

From the other side, I may have a flexible renter who is happy with whatever I can rebook whereas someone else has one that only want all their money back, which may have already been spent. This way, David’s is giving owners an option of refunding, rebooking, or neither.

I fully understand why they cannot pay owners in full and refund renters in full at the same time. This seems to be a very fair way of doing it.

Good points, but it didn’t have to be either or. If the owner and the original renter couldn’t come to an agreement to get rescheduled, then it moves to the voucher system.

I think that the more owners and renters who had worked it out...or at least been allowed to try, the better this situation would be, at least from the standpoint of owners feeling as though they were being an equal participant in trying to Make it right.

 

[ScubaCat]

I have looked into the crystal ball and I foresee that David’s will have problems fulfilling voucher rental request in the future to come.

If the business had the money, he wouldn't need to conjure vouchers out of thin air. A responsibly run business would hold the renters' money in escrow until check-in and final disbursement.

I have a renter checking in early January (my first rental ever; great start!! ). It's only 76 points and I received the 70% already, so if David's ceases to be a thing and doesn't pay me the 30%, I'll probably just let the renter keep the reservation since it's only a few hundred bucks I'd be out. I know I probably don't *have* to do that, but I have received more than the dues for the points already and there are 3 small kids in the party, so to me it's the right thing to do. But every situation is very different, so it's a case-by-case decision.

That said, it'd be a cold day in [unairconditioned club cool] before I ever refunded the 70% to David's...

 

[Choirmom]

I'm a renter and have a split stay (2 different reservations) in October. I'm concerned that even if the resorts are open, if David's goes under before October, that my reservations will be cancelled by the owner(s). In that case, I would pursue a charge back, but I will have no room booked. We have already purchased Halloween party tickets, park tickets etc. Would you recommend booking a cash reservation as back up?

 

[cmrdgrs]

I'm a renter and have a split stay (2 different reservations) in October. I'm concerned that even if the resorts are open, if David's goes under before October, that my reservations will be cancelled by the owner(s). In that case, I would pursue a charge back, but I will have no room booked. We have already purchased Halloween party tickets, park tickets etc. Would you recommend booking a cash reservation as back up?

Certainly wouldn't hurt to have a backup. Most cash reservations can be cancelled 5 days out. I'd check with the hotel you book with on their cancellation policy.

 

[Dracula]

I'm a renter and have a split stay (2 different reservations) in October. I'm concerned that even if the resorts are open, if David's goes under before October, that my reservations will be cancelled by the owner(s). In that case, I would pursue a charge back, but I will have no room booked. We have already purchased Halloween party tickets, park tickets etc. Would you recommend booking a cash reservation as back up?

Most likely, in case of David's bankruptcy, the owners would not cancel outright as their points would be devalued as well. They would either let you go on with your reservation, or will reach out to see if you can make up the part that David owes them ($4.35 per point). I guess what you do depends on the price of the cash reservation, cancelation fee on the cash reservation, and alternate plans like charging back only the $4.35 pp.

 

[Noodlez]

Good points, but it didn’t have to be either or. If the owner and the original renter couldn’t come to an agreement to get rescheduled, then it moves to the voucher system.

I think that the more owners and renters who had worked it out...or at least been allowed to try, the better this situation would be, at least from the standpoint of owners feeling as though they were being an equal participant in trying to Make it right.

Unfortunately, not all sites are as scrupulous as this! I’m on many social media DVC groups and the discrepancies would definitely get discussed. People with expiring points could get named and shamed for not rebooking. Once the renters had the owners details people could be bullied in to returning money they really don’t have right now.

As I mentioned, this is a recent change of feelings for me. I personally want to contact my renters, but I’m one of the lucky ones that can use my points for another year and I have a few to spare. Returning the paid amounts also wouldn’t have much impact on our lives. Those who would suffer are those who are already worrying about expiring points that are now too late to bank, and those who really needed the income from the rentals.

 

[Sandisw]

Unfortunately, not all sites are as scrupulous as this! I’m on many social media DVC groups and the discrepancies would definitely get discussed. People with expiring points could get named and shamed for not rebooking. Once the renters had the owners details people could be bullied in to returning money they really don’t have right now.

As I mentioned, this is a recent change of feelings for me. I personally want to contact my renters, but I’m one of the lucky ones that can use my points for another year and I have a few to spare. Returning the paid amounts also wouldn’t have much impact on our lives. Those who would suffer are those who are already worrying about expiring points that are now too late to bank, and those who really needed the income from the rentals.

Well, I just think Davids had a chance to make this entire situation a win win win for all parties.

Instead, he chose a plan that was unilaterally decided, and ons that shifts most of it to renters and more to owners.

So, he did damage to his business. I certainly won’t recommend him any longer, and won’t use him again, I think it will take him years to build it back up, if he can survive that long.

However, it is his business and he gets to choose to run it his way. We will see how his choices play out in the next year.

 

[ScubaCat]

Well, I just think Davids had a chance to make this entire situation a win win win for all parties.

Instead, he chose a plan that was unilaterally decided, and ons that shifts most of it to renters and more to owners.

The decision was made farther back when he opted not to hold the buyer's money in escrow until the end of the transaction. It'd be like going to close on a resale DVC deed where the title company couldn't disburse the seller's part because it spent some on overhead and were counting on new contracts behind yours to cover it. He should not have paid himself (the business) until the end of the contract. Then, this wouldn't be an issue. Clearly, he rode the float, and here we are with "vouchers", which are almost definitely not worth the digital paper they're printed on.

 

[lawboy2001]

Someone posted on this thread (I believe) that the payment comes (and maybe goes to?) Capital Technologies. Who knows what that means in PayPal's eyes. Capital Technologies, just by the name, IMO doesn't sound like a DVC point rental agency or a travel agency of some type, that's for sure.

For years those of us that rent our points privately have always wondered how David skirts the rules on PayPal about "timeshare transactions" being against their rules. I always just figured he brought PayPal so much money that he had some type of agreement with them to allow him to do these types of transactions. I still don't understand any of the payments, how Capital Technologies fits in the picture, or how any of this is allowed to happen without any type of Escrow account -- I'm sure I never will too.

Sorry, I know it is possible what you say has already been confirmed by PayPal, but if not, I really do not believe that a transaction to rent a room at a DVC resort is a "timeshare transaction." It is a vacation rental transaction.

 

[Amymouse13]

Sorry, I know it is possible what you say has already been confirmed by PayPal, but if not, I really do not believe that a transaction to rent a room at a DVC resort is a "timeshare transaction." It is a vacation rental transaction.

Well seems the intent may have been to obsure the nature of transaction. As someone said had it said David's vacation rentals might be problematic.

 

[Amymouse13]

Btw I think took Citi nearly a month to contact David's re chargeback. I'm not sure about boa as it's not my CC, it's my husband's biz one. He has until mid June to respond to Citibank.

 

[suemom2kay]

I don't personally begrudge anyone who has a good business idea and makes money and/or lives an extravagant lifestyle.

As an owner who rents their points privately, I do begrudge being chastised by David over the years, hearing him tout over and over again that he offers "safety." He offers what owners can't. He's never had a person lose money who has used his services, yadda-yadda-yadda-yadda. Really Mr. Broker? Time to put your money where your mouth is IMO. Oh, but you can't do that because you spent all the money on... yourself? And now you want owners and renters to bail you out on crappy terms?

I begrudge listening to his rhetoric over the years and now he refuses to help owners and renters salvage a bad situation by allowing people to contact one another. Instead he is a bottleneck to the solution and IMO has everyone held hostage under his terms on a product that he doesn't even have any ownership in or money invested in. Owners can't cancel and renters are being forced to accept ridiculous terms of new vouchers.

In the end, based on what I've read and my personal contact with multiple owners, more private owners have made renters "whole" -- brokers are not making anyone "whole" -- not by a long shot.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I opted not to use David's for my rentals because I didn't see any value in his service. I made about 5 smallish reservations for May through October. I've contacted all of my renters offering changes or refunds. Even if the resorts are open, I don't know who may have lost their jobs. We are very fortunate, I'm an ICU nurse so no shortage of work for me. My husband was furloughed for a couple of weeks and is back at it. None of my renters have cancelled but I am glad I gave them piece of mind. I'm also lucky because my use year is Feb so the timing is perfect for this mess. David's getting in the way of resolution is ridiculous. I wonder if it is even legal. Time will tell.

 

[suemom2kay]

and to use the voucher to rent points you have to give david a deposit. Why?

This one really baffles me. He says he'll return it after "verification" but will he? Or will he stall and drag them along.

If the 70% being returned by the owner is actually being used to "fund" the voucher, then it would be a wash if David's refunded the renter instead of giving them a voucher.

Remember in his new terms he can void the voucher at any time... I'm thinking he added that little line in there because he KNOWS he won't have the capital to fulfill these vouchers.

 

[suemom2kay]

Captol Technologies is owned by (wait for it)...David Mullett.

Never mind...

 

[cmrdgrs]

Sorry, I know it is possible what you say has already been confirmed by PayPal, but if not, I really do not believe that a transaction to rent a room at a DVC resort is a "timeshare transaction." It is a vacation rental transaction.

I don't understand what your trying to say here. Are you saying that you don't believe PayPal doesn't allow payments for a timeshare rental?

Quoted from a Q&A from the PayPal site:
services and real estate are actually ineligible. We'll gladly process the payment for you for simplicity's sake, but if there's any issues and you would need to open a dispute, we would not be able to make a determination on it.

OR

Are you saying DVC isn't a timeshare?