DAS changes coming WDW May 20/ DL June 18, 2024

[Disturbia]

I would say the math probably isn't that far off if you break it down by attraction and ride capacity. Take a ride like Peter Pan - if 8% of park guests qualify for DAS at Magic Kingdom and we take the general estimated attendance of 57,000 guests per day that averages out to around 4,560 people. multiply by on average lets say 4 people the family can use for DAS and now you're at 18,240 people eligible to ride Peter Pan via DAS. Will all of them ride it? probably not...but even if they all wanted to (they couldn't) because the daily capacity for Peter Pan is below that threshold. In fact 12 rides at MK alone fall below the total estimated number of DAS eligible users and guests capacity for the ride, which in itself poses a potential problem (assuming that 8% of guests receive DAS is close to accurate).

And then there are kids like ours who would rather ride the carrousel than Peter Pan (apologies for any big Peter Pan fans!)

The math is definitely skewed by DAS abusers and Disney is trying to keep it working for kids with disabilities.

Also Genie+ didn’t sell out the first year or so it was introduced so there are clearly a lot more guests attending the parks as it now routinely sells out during the holidays even at double the price.

 

[DFelt1]

All I was trying to do is post some information to help people understand why they are changing things.

I'm not looking to pick a fight, my daily life is adversarial enough.

If this were to escalate to a legal dispute, I would be genuinely intrigued to see the concrete figures - could it be that the 8% doesn't encompass the entire DAS party? Is it possible that they are curbing G+ sales based on DAS usage (although this seems unlikely)?

The 70% of LL doesn't seem to match up with the actual experiences posted here. I'm observant when tapping in; I rarely see other DAS guests before or after me. It's just my experience, but that's all I have to give.

But until we have real numbers, I'm afraid of fueling people with something to point to (right or wrong) to explain why people who need an accommodation shouldn't be accommodated.

 

[Philsfan77]

And then there are kids like ours who would rather ride the carrousel than Peter Pan (apologies for any big Peter Pan fans!)

I hear ya...my boys don't particularly care about the Peter Pan attraction either...just picked that as it's a ride with known low ride capacity to provide the example

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I interpreted the post as If you want a similar experience to DAS, then you'll have to purchase Genie+. Jake, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Disney offers Genie as an option not Genie+ because a public accommodation, aka, theme park, aka Disney World or Disneyland, asking the disabled to pay extra is a no no. Guessing their lawyers or ADA compliance team let them know this.
Of course, people can choose to pay for Genie+ and Disney won't mind one little bit.

"Below is a list of options to assist guests in accessing attraction queues.

Rider Switch

Single Rider

Disney Genie Service

Disability Access Service

Stroller as a Wheelchair Tag

Navigating Queues with Service Animals"

I missed this comment but it was brought back around by the Mod so jumping off that comment now

If you actually click on Disney Genie Service it does not take you to Genie+ because (and this is on Disney's part for being confusing) Genie itself is a service that pre-dates Genie+/ILL. It was announced several years before the pandemic occurred actually IIRC as a concept but really wasn't mentioned a huge amount overall.

And if you click on Disney Genie Service this is what they are referring to


Originally Disney Genie was announced as sorta a different app to help you plan your day IIRC. The intent back then was to have Disney suggest attractions based on a guest's needs. That could be wait time or proximity, etc.

It's incorporated into the MDE app.

It's hard to find news articles now and even harder to find that on the DIS but I remember when they announced this type of service and I think the consensus on the DIS was that it probably wouldn't be the most helpful but that was coming from more veterans who didn't need the service as much.

 

[Disturbia]

It would make sense on the rides with the most appeal / longest lines.

Abuse or not, any DAS user is most likely to use DAS on those rides. They could also easily do 3 or 4 of the rides with 120 minute waits in a day, while still experiencing dozens of other attractions.

Any non-DAS user is unlikely to do more than 1 of those in a day, and they're in line the whole time.

This is not true. When I waited with my teenager we did 3 rides in 2 hours because the posted waits were grossly inflated after 6 pm to discourage people from going in the standby lines.

DAS would have most likely ridden 1 in the same time unless they could have sprint to the next one few mins before park close - wheelchairs and strollers are next to impossible to move around the parks nowadays during holidays.

 

[Jrb1979]

I'm not looking to pick a fight, my daily life is adversarial enough.

If this were to escalate to a legal dispute, I would be genuinely intrigued to see the concrete figures - could it be that the 8% doesn't encompass the entire DAS party? Is it possible that they are curbing G+ sales based on DAS usage (although this seems unlikely)?

The 70% of LL doesn't seem to match up with the actual experiences posted here. I'm observant when tapping in; I rarely see other DAS guests before or after me. It's just my experience, but that's all I have to give.

But until we have real numbers, I'm afraid of fueling people with something to point to (right or wrong) to explain why people who need an accommodation shouldn't be accommodated.

The 8% is just the DAS user and doesn't include their party. Til the change to 4 including DAS user, it was up to 6 but many times that number was higher. I'm not trying to say why people shouldn't be accommodated.

My point was to help people understand why they are making the changes. IMO they should have got rid of the pre booking and make it a hard limit of 3 guests per each DAS user.

 

[lanejudy]

Genie itself is a service that pre-dates Genie+/ILL. It was announced several years before the pandemic occurred actually IIRC as a concept but really wasn't mentioned a huge amount overall.

I think it all launched around the same time, including the DAS pre-registration. The announcement was in August 2021 but the roll-out may have been in October. I don't recall specifically. The first post of this thread has some links to some announcements.

 

[sprem96]

I'm not looking to pick a fight, my daily life is adversarial enough.

If this were to escalate to a legal dispute, I would be genuinely intrigued to see the concrete figures - could it be that the 8% doesn't encompass the entire DAS party? Is it possible that they are curbing G+ sales based on DAS usage (although this seems unlikely)?

The 70% of LL doesn't seem to match up with the actual experiences posted here. I'm observant when tapping in; I rarely see other DAS guests before or after me. It's just my experience, but that's all I have to give.

But until we have real numbers, I'm afraid of fueling people with something to point to (right or wrong) to explain why people who need an accommodation shouldn't be accommodated.

I myself (a DAS user) rarely see any DAS users generally in my lineups just before or just after me, and I usually go in August every year, a lot of times I don't experience very long LL queue lines in general for that matter, where people are claiming are very long at other times of the years. At my local theme park Canada's Wonderland, we are given disability papers to hand to employees at exits for our party of up to 4 people (so very easy to spot who is using that feature or not), generally, when I go on a ride when my return time comes up I don't see more than maybe 1 other family getting a return time as well, a lot of times my party is the only one there requesting it. I will make note that the rides that tend to be more heavily requested tend to be more child-friendly rides with lower capacities; which would make sense to use your return times on something that legitimately would give you the hardest time waiting for.

 

[nalababybear]

This is not true. When I waited with my teenager we did 3 rides in 2 hours because the posted waits were grossly inflated after 6 pm to discourage people from going in the standby lines.

DAS would have most likely ridden 1 in the same time unless they could have sprint to the next one few mins before park close - wheelchairs and strollers are next to impossible to move around the parks nowadays during holidays.

End of night wait times are gross inaccurate. We have DAS for DS. When we stay overnight, I will go to back myself and ride standby. True wait times are easily 1/2 of posted. Many 20min posted are almost walk on.

 

[jo-jo]

Indeed. That is not my question tho. Several folks here have claimed that if Disney doesn't guarantee them their DAS before their refund cutout date then they won't go on their vacations. I am wondering what happened in years past were the only place to actually request a DAS was in person.

In our case, we've only needed one in the last few years. Lots of health changes since 2018. We did one trip post covid without DAS with grandkids and DH didn't do many rides at all. After that trip, we tried for DAS. It's all the talk that it's only for this or that issue, that makes me worry.

And the cost is too high just to go for a resort stay. Some people loved them, but are able to be more active. Going out to see grandsons baseball/basket ball/ soccar games have become very iffy. Maybe we make two games a season. 7 years ago, we went out several times a week just to watch a practice and then the games on Saturday.

 

[Grim Grinning Ghostie]

Here is some numbers as the reason Disney had to change things.

8% of visitors are DAS
70% of a rides capacity is given to DAS
74-85% of LL users are DAS

15-26% of LL users are G+
10-25% of a rides capacity is given to G+

5-20% of a rides capacity is given to standby guests

8% of visitors get 70% of a rides capacity
92% of visitors get 30% of a rides capacity, which is unevenly given to G+ users

This is a huge problem and needs a radical solution, I’m sorry it’s causing heartache to some of the most vulnerable in our society but the company cannot function, nor is it fair to the rest of us, for this to continue.

Now I'm no brain scientist or rocket surgeon, but these figures seem a bit - 'ow you say - impossible.

 

[GoingSince1990]

The 8% is just the DAS user and doesn't include their party. Til the change to 4 including DAS user, it was up to 6 but many times that number was higher. I'm not trying to say why people shouldn't be accommodated.

My point was to help people understand why they are making the changes. IMO they should have got rid of the pre booking and make it a hard limit of 3 guests per each DAS user.

I suspect another issue is that parties including a DAS user will tend to be disproportionately large, due to the “hey, do you all want to come to Disney with us? We have DAS so you won’t have to wait in any long lines!” effect, where some people don’t want to “waste” any available slots in their allowed DAS party size. An effect that should be vastly reduced with a disability rider swap system in which only two members of the party get to use the LL, with everyone else in the party using the standby line.

 

[ClaraOswald]

Someone asked what people did before you could apply online....

We went to one of the green(?) umbrella people in the park and talked to a CM once we were there. So yeah...I don't understand people demanding to know if they will qualify before their trip because it's really only been this way for a couple years, as far as I know.

And talking about party sizes on DAS...I'm glad they will limit it to family or just a couple friends. Not sure it will help a lot, but it's definitely better than nothing.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I think it all launched around the same time, including the DAS pre-registration. The announcement was in August 2021 but the roll-out may have been in October. I don't recall specifically. The first post of this thread has some links to some announcements.

It def. did launch at the same time at WDW (a bit later at DLR) and you're right at WDW it was in October but Genie Service was a concept from several years prior pre-dating the whole Genie+/ILL. It didn't seem to get a whole lot of traction but it was actually announced at the D23 event in 2019 (I had to dig to find this information and I was incorrect about it pre-dating the pandemic by several years but it did pre-date it).

This is from a D23 blog
"This fall, the Disney Genie is coming out of the lamp and making magic at Walt Disney World Resort and Disneyland Resort. As first revealed during the Parks and Resorts panel at D23 Expo 2019, Disney Genie is a complimentary and convenient new digital service designed to create your best Disney day."

https://d23.com/wish-granted-disney...lt-disney-world-resort-and-disneyland-resort/

 

[RamblinWreck]

This is not true. When I waited with my teenager we did 3 rides in 2 hours because the posted waits were grossly inflated after 6 pm to discourage people from going in the standby lines.

DAS would have most likely ridden 1 in the same time unless they could have sprint to the next one few mins before park close - wheelchairs and strollers are next to impossible to move around the parks nowadays during holidays.

I can't speak for other people's experiences.

I have been to Disney World with someone who did not at all have to lie to get a DAS pass, but her disability had more to do with not being able to stand in hot lines in the sun than anything else.

With just the DAS, and no accompanying Genie+ or ILL's or anything like that, it's ludicrously easy for an otherwise able-bodied person to do everything in the entire park.

1. Put in for your first DAS pass
2. Go ride something (or somethings) that has little to no wait
3. Get in line for your DAS pass.
4. When you get to the end of the line, put in for your next one.

Anything that has a 45 minute wait or less becomes essentially an instant walk-on. By the time you finish the ride you're on and then walk across the park for your next DAS, it's time to get in the lightning lane already. It was unbelievably easy.

 

[RamblinWreck]

Someone asked what people did before you could apply online....

We went to one of the green(?) umbrella people in the park and talked to a CM once we were there. So yeah...I don't understand people demanding to know if they will qualify before their trip because it's really only been this way for a couple years, as far as I know.

This seems fairly obvious.

There's a new change being implemented and a huge number of people have no idea whether or not they will qualify, or what accommodations they will qualify for.

Prior to the online registration, you either had prior experience or at least the ability to find out what other people similar to you could qualify for. Neither of those exist now.

 

[PainInIL]

Now I'm no brain scientist or rocket surgeon, but these figures seem a bit - 'ow you say - impossible.

70% is based on total DAS party size, not on 8% of DAS visitors.

What makes these numbers "impossible"?

It is not the single DAS users that are using the capacity. It is the DAS parties of 4, 5, 6 or even larger that use up the capacity.

 

[migirl]

According to my daughter, who is doing the dcp now, all her roommates (also all cms) have DAS passes, and she said guests get them for seemingly innocuous reasons. She thought we should look into getting one because of her brothers’s sensitivity to noise (he just used noise canceling headphones in the parks and was fine).

 

[Jrb1979]

Now I'm no brain scientist or rocket surgeon, but these figures seem a bit - 'ow you say - impossible.

It's not really. Here is numbers from the 2020 lawsuit filed against Disney for GAC from
the US District Court in Orlando, the court noted that these data collected by Disney about Guest Assistance Card (GAC) use were both unchallenged by the plantiffs and convincing to the court (emphasis mine):

In a two-week study conducted by Disney's Industrial Engineering team in April 2013, the team found that GAC pass usage at five of the most popular attractions at Disney (the "GAC Study") was much higher than the percentage of guests in the park who held a GAC pass.

At that time, approximately 3.3% of guests at Disney used a GAC pass, yet the percentage of guests on the most popular rides who had a GAC pass and entered through the FastPass line was significantly higher than 3.3%.

The GAC Study showed that 11% of riders on Space Mountain, 13% of riders on Splash Mountain, and 30% on Toy Story Mania used a GAC pass to access the ride.

Disney's industrial engineers concluded that the small portion of the guest population who held GAC pass was consuming a substantial portion of the ride capacity.

For example, guests with a GAC pass were riding Toy Story Mania an average of ten times more than guests who did not have a GAC pass.

Cite: A.L. v. Walt Disney Parks & Resorts US, Inc., 469 F. Supp. 3d 1280, 1294 (M.D. Fla. 2020). The quote above is on the right-hand side of page 9.

So 3.3% of the people in the park were using 30% of Toy Story's ride capacity.

Disney said on Tuesday that use of the system has tripled in the last 5 years.

Okay, so if back in 2013, 3.3% of guests were using 30% of ride capacity at a popular ride, and use has tripled since then, you'd think roughly 33% to 90% of riders on popular rides were using DAS to
access the ride.

 

[Smugpugmug]

According to my daughter, who is doing the dcp now, all her roommates (also all cms) have DAS passes, and she said guests get them for seemingly innocuous reasons. She thought we should look into getting one because of her brothers’s sensitivity to noise (he just used noise canceling headphones in the parks and was fine).

That somewhat lines up with Len Testa's claim that the majority of DAS abusers are Disney employees, which shocked me when I first read that.