Cut back in hours true reflection of attendance?

[DancingBear]

Nope, just the power of realistic expectations.

I just think there is a tendency for folks to (1) think that everything was better in the old days, and (2) think that the grass is greener on the other side of the street.

Tendency (1) leads to ignoring the expansion of parks and of all sorts of entertainment options within WDW. It also ignores the rampant discounting of hotel rooms which was previously unheard of.

Tendency (2) ignores the fact that the other theme parks and entertainment options have also been cutting back and/or raising prices and otherwise decreasing value. Remember that in 2002 Universal and Busch Gardens/Sea World raised their prices 8-10 months before Disney did. Sure, Disney is expensive, but so is a week at the beach.

I remain very satisfied with the value of my Disney vacation.

 

[LSU Tigerfan]

The hours that WDW keeps its parks open is determined by how many guests they expect to be in the parks. WDW normally makes a lot of money, even without ticket sales, from its restaurants and shops.

Believe me, if Disney expected to have a reasonable number of people in the parks for a certain time of day, the parks would be open at that time.

International travel to WDW is way, way down and it's unrealistic to assume that WDW can make as much money with fewer visitors. I expect that those of you going in the next month will find very sparse crowds at the parks.

 

[MulanMom]

Originally posted by raidermatt

If Disney chooses to respond with further cuts, rather than find other more creative ways to attract guests, more guests will decide not to go. Its a vicious cycle that only Disney can stop.

They were cutting before the economy ever turned south, so that should clue us in on what their strategy is.

Well said raidermatt! We've noticed the cutbacks starting way back in the mid90s, both at the parks and with OKW. To us, it's approaching the point of ridiculous. Although, to others who were perhaps not watching as closely, it seemed to begin post 9/11.

I appreciate everyone's differing opinions. But I know best what my individual situation is, and for me, the latest cuts are basically what I refer to as a deal breaker. I'm not happy about getting to this point, believe me. I used to be a Disney loyalist with rose-colored glasses (those were the days! ignorance *is* bliss!). But as my Disney costs get higher and my return gets lower, both in terms of vacation value and stock value, I can no longer be passive. It seems the only way Disney mgmt. will listen is if I speak with my wallet.

We'll enjoy our upcoming vacation despite the cutbacks. However, whether we get a good value for our vacation investment remains to be seen.

Sharon

 

[Eeyore2U]

Originally posted by raidermatt
If Disney chooses to respond with further cuts, rather than find other more creative ways to attract guests, more guests will decide not to go. Its a vicious cycle that only Disney can stop.

They were cutting before the economy ever turned south, so that should clue us in on what their strategy is.

So, if I understand most of the arguments made here correctly, Disney should stay status quo or revert to when things were more to the consumers liking. The fact the the world today is not the same as a week ago, a month ago a year ago or 5 years ago makes no difference. I don't get it. I was there 2/23-3/1 and the place was dead. DEAD

We are a victim of our own expectations. For those who want to cancel based on a preconcieved notion of what the future will be, do it. You will most likely have missed a spectacular time.

Folk, this isn't about you, it's about a bigger picture. We may not like it but that's reality.

 

[JJS2K3]

To think that today the Parks operate in a vacuum is naive. While projected attendance and hotel bookings figure into operating hours, so does the corporate bottom line.

20 years ago Disney didn't own ABC or other money sucking enterprises. So 20 years ago Disney could keep parks open later in non-peak times and maybe lose a little because they knew they would make it up easily in the peak times. It kept people happy and kept the 'magic' alive - consumer good will. This kept people coming back and coming back. Keeping those hours intact made a bundle of money for them in the long run. Can't do that with today's 'Corporate Disney'.

People keep focusing on one part of the 'problem' - the hours. If it were just hours being cut it wouldn't be so bad, but it's not. Attractions being closed, refurbishments being stretched out, food portions and options being cut, tacky decisions like the coffee change, etc. - all of this slowly erodes the good will that took so long to build up. And no amount of money is going get that back.

It was mentioned that Universal raised their prices before WDW.

It's also been mentioned that the economy is bad, it's a different world, etc.

What wasn't mentioned is that USO/IOA still had an increase in attendance despite this. Does this mean that USO is a better place than WDW? Of course not. What it does mean is that it's not just about money.

It sounds almost silly but people need to feel wanted. You don't do that by cutting hours so close to arrival dates and cutting the amount of fries and chicken fingers you get in a basket and keeping attractions closed for no reason other than to save a buck. You don't keep loyalty by 'nickel-n-diming' people to death. NOT doing things like this is what separated Disney from the other theme/amusement parks.

Don't mean to tick anyone off, just my opinion and you know whatthey say about opinions

 

[eeyore0062]

What wasn't mentioned is that USO/IOA still had an increase in attendance despite this. Does this mean that USO is a better place than WDW? Of course not. What it does mean is that it's not just about money.

US/IOA also tends to attract more daytrippers and locals than tht Disney parks. Disney is a DESTINATION that depends on people not only coming for long amounts of time from around this country but from overseas. With so many people paralyzed by the threat of terrorists and war, tightened security at airports making plane travel more inconvenient and ever rising gas prices, people just aren't taking long, faraway vacations like they did in the 90's.

Hopefully, all of this unrest will be over soon (God willing) and we can go back to enjoying the freedoms, such as transportation, travel, etc as we used to... and hopefully the devout Disney fans will stand by them while they struggle to get through this!

 

[Eeyore2U]

Where is the proof that US/IOA's attendance is up? DS and a bud were there two weeks ago and it was empty enough for them to do both parks in less then 1/2 a day.

If it's up the only reason would be that was low in the first. An increase of next to nothing is an increase none the less.

 

[DancingBear]

Just when did WDW reach the high water mark which folks think is now eroding?

Was it before the opening of Animal Kingdom (April 1998)? Or before the subsequent opening of the Asia and Chester and Hester sections?

Was it before the introduction of FastPass (2000)?

Before Tower of Terror (1994)? Rock N Roller Coaster (1999)? Fantasmic (1999)?

Before Animal Kingdom Lodge (2001)? Wilderness Lodge (1994)?

New Illuminations show? Downtown Disney WestSide? Cirque de Soleil? Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh? Winter/Summerland mini golf? Eagle Pines golf course? Atlanta Braves spring training?

We visited the Boardwalk (1996) in our visit last December, looked at the extensive decorations, and listened to a high school chorus, a tuba band and a travelling piano player who were performing along the boards, took the boat launch around the lake, watched some of the Illuminations fireworks, had a free cup of hot cider in the lobby of the Yacht Club. None of these activities was directly putting a cent in Disney's pocket, just all part of the atmosphere. I just haven't experienced the big dropoff in value that others have expressed here.

 

[eeyore0062]

I just haven't experienced the big dropoff in value that others have expressed here.

Nor have I... I just think people tend to look back to the good old days with rose colored glasses, and then the present can't possibly measure up!

Does it bother me that the parks are only open the hours that they are... NO... park admission is based on the core hours.
MK-9-6
AK 9-5
Epcot 9-9
MGM-9-7

Anything above and beyond those hours I consider a freebie. Other parks, such as US/IOA and Seaworld, as well as BG-T don't have really long hours, but their ticket prices are comparible, so I just don't understand why it is always Disney that comes under fire for this.

Are we mad because during the economic good times of the mid 90's Disney could afford to keep the parks open, build new resorts and parks, etc, and now they can't. We have been spoiled... that is all. It is a new world, and like it or not, one that we will have to learn to live with, at least until the economy has a turn around. No one could have predicted this happening back then... Disney couldn't either. Now they have a few huge vacation destinations, a couple of TV stations, retail outlets and other things that all feed in, and they have to support them. Unfortunately, the parks have always been able to support the other ventures. Now that travel is at an all time low... the parks are having to pay the price for not only the other ventures, but the fact that they aren't bringing in the numbers, either.

I know that there are those who don't agree with me, and they are entitled to their opinions... but if you go to WDW or anywhere, for that matter and expect to be dissatisfied, you WILL be! Contrarily.... it you hold Disney up to unrealistic expectations, likewise you will find fault.

Go, have a good time. If you don't think you will, you certainly don't have to go... but don't ruin it for those who do.

BTW, why has this not been moved to either the debate board, or the Cutbacks, Comments and Complaints thread at the top of the Disney Trip Planning Forum?

 

[justhat]

To say that people will stop coming to WDW because the hours are cut is ridiculous. I would say about 50% of all visitors do not even know what the hours will be before they get there. We had friends who went to WDW and US/IOA over NYE who had no idea what time any of the parks opened or closed on any day. They stayed at HRH in Universal (they were there for the premiere of Emeril's Tchoup Chop, since one man is the manager of his New Orleans restaurants) and woke up each morning and decided which park to go to and got there whenever they were ready (usually around 10am). We met them a few times between 1/1 and 1/5 (their WDW days) and they didn't have any idea which park opened/closed when and thought it was incredible that we not only had this info on an index card in our backpack, but had it memorized too. They liked WDW (and had been there many times before), but loved US/IOA since they got to the front of each line as a resort guest. Also, we have family going in April and they can't even remember that they're staying at ASMu, let alone know that they could find out park hours in advance. Even if they did know, they probably wouldn't care, as I tried explaining making a room request and they sorta stared blankly and said they didn't care where they stayed. So while 100% of the people on this board know the hours are cut, etc., most others going to WDW do not know this so they will not be disappointed when they get there. Sure, they might think it's crowded (but after I was there President's Day, I don't think it will be too crowded), but they'll assume that's just how Disney is. So by Disney extending park hours, they will not have more guests come to WDW, just those who know past hours, like members of this board, but then again, those people will go anyway.

 

[PatriciaH]

Originally posted by JJS2K3
To think that today the Parks operate in a vacuum is naive. While projected attendance and hotel bookings figure into operating hours, so does the corporate bottom line.

20 years ago Disney didn't own ABC or other money sucking enterprises. So 20 years ago Disney could keep parks open later in non-peak times and maybe lose a little because they knew they would make it up easily in the peak times. It kept people happy and kept the 'magic' alive - consumer good will. This kept people coming back and coming back. Keeping those hours intact made a bundle of money for them in the long run. Can't do that with today's 'Corporate Disney'.

People keep focusing on one part of the 'problem' - the hours. If it were just hours being cut it wouldn't be so bad, but it's not. Attractions being closed, refurbishments being stretched out, food portions and options being cut, tacky decisions like the coffee change, etc. - all of this slowly erodes the good will that took so long to build up. And no amount of money is going get that back.

It was mentioned that Universal raised their prices before WDW.

It's also been mentioned that the economy is bad, it's a different world, etc.

What wasn't mentioned is that USO/IOA still had an increase in attendance despite this. Does this mean that USO is a better place than WDW? Of course not. What it does mean is that it's not just about money.

It sounds almost silly but people need to feel wanted. You don't do that by cutting hours so close to arrival dates and cutting the amount of fries and chicken fingers you get in a basket and keeping attractions closed for no reason other than to save a buck. You don't keep loyalty by 'nickel-n-diming' people to death. NOT doing things like this is what separated Disney from the other theme/amusement parks.

Don't mean to tick anyone off, just my opinion and you know whatthey say about opinions

GREAT post! Ahhhh.. I remember the days of late closings (even the first week of December), NO closed attractions, and construction during the day-unheard of!

 

[raidermatt]

I just think there is a tendency for folks to (1) think that everything was better in the old days...

Once again, these are real world comparisons to past hours. Nobody is imagining anything.

..Tendency (2) ignores the fact that the other theme parks and entertainment options have also been cutting back and/or raising prices and otherwise decreasing value.

Yet they continue to build new attractions at a greater per capita rate than Disney. Further, Disney did not become Disney by doing what Six Flags and Universal did.

I remain very satisfied with the value of my Disney vacation.

That's great, but nobody's personal vacation habits are in question. Clearly some are not satisfied.

Believe me, if Disney expected to have a reasonable number of people in the parks for a certain time of day, the parks would be open at that time.

Then please explain why hours in Oct-Dec '02 were shorter than in Oct-Dec '01, despite higher attendance?

With so many people paralyzed by the threat of terrorists and war, tightened security at airports making plane travel more inconvenient and ever rising gas prices, people just aren't taking long, faraway vacations like they did in the 90's.

Hours were being cut BEFORE the boom ended. This is yet to be addressed by anybody in this thread.

To say that people will stop coming to WDW because the hours are cut is ridiculous. I would say about 50% of all visitors do not even know what the hours will be before they get there.

So then why not cut them to 3pm?

Not knowing in advance does not translate into not noticing when you arrive.

For what its worth, WDW attendance was down 6.0% last year, Universal's was up 1.6%.

The number of visitors into Florida increased 8% in 2002 over 2001, and that was also a 4% increase over 2000.


Pointing out the reality that Disney is cutting value does not mean one cannot still enjoy a WDW vacation. It's merely pointing out the facts, and showing how Disney thinks as a company. I can understand still taking a trip to WDW and having a great time (I will), but I can't understand ignoring the fact that some are making a different decision, and that is not in WDW's best long-term interests.

When the philosophy is "cut what we can get away with", sooner or later, they WILL get to something you care about.

 

[JJS2K3]

To say that people will stop coming to WDW because the hours are cut is ridiculous. I would say about 50% of all visitors do not even know what the hours will be before they get there.

So while 100% of the people on this board know the hours are cut, etc., most others going to WDW do not know this so they will not be disappointed when they get there

"Ridiculous"? That's a fairly harsh term for what has otherwise been a civil debate.

Where did you get that "50%" number? Or "most others"?

Ahhhhh, forget it

 

[raidermatt]

So while 100% of the people on this board know the hours are cut, etc., most others going to WDW do not know this so they will not be disappointed when they get there

Since most WDW visitors are repeat visitors, they will compare what they get now to what they got when they last went. True, some have no clue. And yes, some will not remember exactly what the hours were last time they came. But they will remember that AK used to open earlier, so you could see the animals in the morning, and that they used to be able to see MK at night more often than they do now. And BB was open last time wasn't it? (never mind RC). Oh yeah, and what replaced 20k, the Sky Tram, TimeKeeper, CoP, Hunchback, etc? And when we got the Fantasmic Dinner Package, couldn't we order off the regular menu last time? I know I don't remember paying more for that...

It adds up...

 

[DancingBear]

Originally posted by raidermatt
Once again, these are real world comparisons to past hours. Nobody is imagining anything.

As somebody posted earlier (when I pointed out that Universal/IOA/Sea World's hours weren't any longer than Disney's), it's not just about the hours.

I see a lot of complaints on these boards about reduced hours, but then I see the "Just Back" post after post after post about how relatively little waiting folks are doing. I remember the big rash of complaints last year about the short hours the weekdays before Labor Day---turns out that week is really a light week because it's the end of the summer and some colleges and schools start back that week or before.

I also see Disney extending hours and offering additional Spectro, E-nights and Fantasmic! shows, apparently when they see bookings and anticipated crowds increasing.

I just don't really see a significant, on the ground impact of the cuts, whether before or after 9/11, on the experience of most guests.

 

[TRAPPED-PARENT]

Okay, the fact still remains that the park hours for my next visit later this month are shorter than previous visits.

What to do???

We have three days planned in the parks and we will go to the park with EE on each day, take advantage of e-night on 3/28 and will plan to park-hop over to Epcot on the other two nights as they close the latest.

We will also not do a sit-down restaurant in any of the parks as this would be expensive and take away precious time from our tour the attractions.

Like anything else in life, you have to find a way to take the lemons that life serves up and make lemonade!!!

Still love Disney and can't wait to see Mr. Sun!!!!

 

[B'rer Karen]

I agree with radiermatt that it adds up. It's not just one thing, it's the sum total. I just got back from 5 days at WDW and I noticed a lot of little things. Things that non-regulars might not notice, but as an APer, I did. And there is something that was bugging me that I don't believe has been brought up on this thread. Disney still classifies their resort rates as value, regular, peak, and holiday. I just went 3/6-3/10 and this was considered peak season, so I paid peak rates for my room. And yet I had value season hours. If it's true that the crowds are lower and they can't justify keeping the parks open later, then what makes it peak season and why am I paying for it? I also feel bad for anyone arriving this week. The 6-9 the crowds were really light, but Monday the skies opened up and there were people everywhere. At 3:30 on Monday ToT at MGM had a 90 minutes wait and there weren't any more FP's left. Yet MGM was closing at 7 just like it had the four days prior. To me, that's a problem.

Like any business, your best customers are your repeat customers. The repeat customers are the ones who notice the cuts most of all and if they get fed up enough, they will eventually stop coming back, or at the very least slow down the frequency with which they return.

I also understand that like any business, they have to do what's right for the business. But sometimes what's best for the business is to grow at a time when others are cutting back. It costs you in the short term, but in the long term you have customers for life. This is what Disney used to do and used to have, and, IMO, this is what they're losing.

Is it enough for me to stop going? No, not yet. But everyone has their breaking point and more and more people are getting there.

 

[raidermatt]

I also see Disney extending hours and offering additional Spectro, E-nights and Fantasmic! shows, apparently when they see bookings and anticipated crowds increasing.

When they are doing this, they have taken three steps back and are giving back one. You may see that as fair, but others don't.

Again, there are examples of periods where attendance has increased, like Oct-Dec '02 vs. Oct-Dec '01, yet hours still decreased. This flies in the face of the "hours go up when attendance goes up" argument.

I remember the big rash of complaints last year about the short hours the weekdays before Labor Day---turns out that week is really a light week because it's the end of the summer and some colleges and schools start back that week or before.

Is not that the hours are short, its that they are shorter than the same period from the year before, which is shorter than the year before...

Again, maybe it doesn't bother you to not be able to experience the MK after dark, but eventually, they will cut something you do care about. The point isn't "do the cuts affect me?", the point is the philosophy that is responsible for the severity of these cuts is the philosophy used to run the parks. Don't care about hours? OK. Don't care about the list of attractions closed without replacement? Ok. Don't care about the premium added for a limited menu for the FDP? Ok. Don't care that BB will be closed an extra three weeks? Ok. What about EE? Did you care when that was cut, and it was spun that you wanted CC?

Certainly you can see that there are some people affected by these things, and eventually, they will find something that even you care about.

 

[DancingBear]

Originally posted by raidermatt
Its not that the hours are short, its that they are shorter than the same period from the year before, which is shorter than the year before...

Again, maybe it doesn't bother you to not be able to experience the MK after dark, but eventually, they will cut something you do care about. The point isn't "do the cuts affect me?", the point is the philosophy that is responsible for the severity of these cuts is the philosophy used to run the parks. Don't care about hours? OK. Don't care about the list of attractions closed without replacement? Ok. Don't care about the premium added for a limited menu for the FDP? Ok. Don't care that BB will be closed an extra three weeks? Ok. What about EE? Did you care when that was cut, and it was spun that you wanted CC?

It's not that the hours have been cut, it's that the hours remaining are still enough, given attendance levels, to have a very positive park experience. So, they didn't manage the hours this way before--maybe they should have. It's just a change, not necessarily an overall "cut" in the experience.

Eventually, they will add something you do care about. Don't like the hours? OK. Don't care about the opening of a new park? OK. Don't care about the addition of the Fantasmic show (which you don't have to buy a dinner package to see)? OK. Don't care that Blizzard Beach was added (and included as an economical "plus" in the new parkhopper plus passes)? OK. Don't care about the restoration of EE (sheez, they don't even catch a break when they respond to customer complaints)? OK. Don't care about the addition of the Boardwalk (including the free entertainment there)? OK

I'm not blind to the subtractions. It's not like I wouldn't rather have longer hours all of the time, it's just that I also can't ignore all of the enhancements to the experience that have come along. And it seems that the capital investment purse may be loosening up, with Mission Space, Mickey's Philharmagic, and possibly some version of the whole Project Gemini thing.

Regarding B'rer Karen's comment, it may be true that the whole "Peak" and "Value" season thing is outdated. The recent use of codes, "comeback" rates, postcards, etc., indicates that marketing is also changing its focus to a more targeted approach in lodging pricing. Lodging as a whole appears to be much more heavily discounted than in the not-so-distant past. Yet another positive factor which seems to be totally ignored by the "it's all gone downhill" gang.

 

[raidermatt]

It's not that the hours have been cut, it's that the hours remaining are still enough, given attendance levels, to have a very positive park experience.

But this is not how a business can view the world, even the fantasy-laden WDW. Customers and potential customers exist along a continuum of "how willing" they are to spend their money on your product. At one end you have people who are very willing and would even spend much more, or accept much less. That's you and me.

At the other end, there are people who "wouldn't go if you paid me". Everybody else exists somewhere in between.

You and I are still going to go even if they do shorten hours, close some attractions, cut back entertainment, whatever. But many others who attend are closer to their breaking point than you and I. They go, but it doesn't take as much to get them to stop going, or go less frequently. There's a line in the sand, and they are close to it.

Every cut is enough to move somebody over that line. Bigger cuts move more people, smaller ones move less people. But they all push everybody closer to their line, and those that are already close are the customers Disney will lose.

Don't like the hours? OK. Don't care about the opening of a new park? OK. Don't care about the addition of the Fantasmic show (which you don't have to buy a dinner package to see)? OK. Don't care that Blizzard Beach was added (and included as an economical "plus" in the new parkhopper plus passes)? OK. Don't care about the restoration of EE (sheez, they don't even catch a break when they respond to customer complaints)? OK. Don't care about the addition of the Boardwalk (including the free entertainment there)? OK

The last park opened in 1998, is priced the same as the previous parks, added a day to the minimum hopper length, and has not been completed. EE was cut then restored. Nice wash. Further, when it was restored, Hunchback was shut down.

BB is also separately ticketed, and RC has sinced closed.

Fantasmic and the limited free entertainment on the BW are great. However, Fantasmic was added to a park that was opened incomplete to begin with, yet priced as a full park. The rest of the BW consists of things you pay extra for, unlike hours, shows and attractions that are cut.

There's just no way to make the limited adds balance out the cuts.

That doesn't mean you have to stop going, but there's no reason to deny its happening either.