C's get degrees but

[Hrhpd]

You have a very narrow view as to what makes a great employee. As for your last statement, I highly doubt companies such Apple, Google and Disney are only looking for the A students.

Don't know about that field, but do know that companies such as Ball Aerospace, when hiring new engineers, will not look at resumes of new college grads with GPA's under 3.5. Many of the Petroleum companies have even higher standards. (2013 ChemE kid with heavy Petroleum focus who was applying for jobs at Biotech and Petroleum companies.)

99% of the companies required a 3.5 - 3.8 minimum GPA.

Average starting salary for a Petroleum Engineer is well into the 90-100,000 per year. The C students are not going to get those jobs. Which I believe was the original question of the OP. Will a "C" average get a good job? Usually not in the engineering field.

Also, having watched an engineer in college for the past 4 years, there was no regurgitating of information on tests. In fact, one of the major stressors of the students (I heard the gripe sessions while study groups were at our house) was that the problems on the tests usually covered material not taught. To get an A on those tests, they needed to be able to apply learned concepts to a completely different situation. Only those who completely understood the concepts and could think outside the box were the ones who got A's.

The ones who only memorized and regurgitated were the ones who got the C's or worse because they did not understand the why or how, only knew the memorized formulas and how to apply them to the examples in class. They could not take the information and manipulate it to solve other problems.

 

[declansdad]

Don't know about that field, but do know that companies such as Ball Aerospace, when hiring new engineers, will not look at resumes of new college grads with GPA's under 3.5. Many of the Petroleum companies have even higher standards. (2013 ChemE kid with heavy Petroleum focus who was applying for jobs at Biotech and Petroleum companies.)

99% of the companies required a 3.5 - 3.8 minimum GPA.

Average starting salary for a Petroleum Engineer is well into the 90-100,000 per year. The C students are not going to get those jobs. Which I believe was the original question of the OP. Will a "C" average get a good job? Usually not in the engineering field.

Also, having watched an engineer in college for the past 4 years, there was no regurgitating of information on tests. In fact, one of the major stressors of the students (I heard the gripe sessions while study groups were at our house) was that the problems on the tests usually covered material not taught. To get an A on those tests, they needed to be able to apply learned concepts to a completely different situation. Only those who completely understood the concepts and could think outside the box were the ones who got A's.

The ones who only memorized and regurgitated were the ones who got the C's or worse because they did not understand the why or how, only knew the memorized formulas and how to apply them to the examples in class. They could not take the information and manipulate it to solve other problems.

And the point many people have been making is that there is more than engineering out there for people to find careers. No one is disputing that there are some fields that probably do look at GPA but they are not the only jobs out there and GPA is not always a good indicator of effort or ability.

 

[eliza61]

It has been a while since I was in college or grad school but I do not recall a single test that was straight regurgitation of what was taught. Often, they were papers as finals or essay questions. A scenerio was described and you needed to apply what you learned in the class to interpret or solve for the issue at hand.

It is all academic as a C average resume would never have reached my desk for review. They would immediately be discarded. I have no problems with that. I want the kids out of college who got As in Finance to be creating the financial models for my clients and the ones that got As in English to be writing my decks and copy. Not the C students.

For management/executive positions, all top employers (Apple, Google, Goldman, Mckinsey, Disney, GE, etc.) are looking for the A students and not considering the Cs. While their may be some exceptions to the rule (never discount the power of a KILLER cover letter), that is the way things work.

Once again not sure I agree with that, most management/executive positions (let me say I can only speak to google and GE, I work for Dupont so I've been in industry events with these folks) are not looking at transcripts. They are looking at experience. by the time you move up to executive in GE, not sure about Disney the last thing they are asking for is your transcript.
I highly doubt when Michael Eisner, Robert Iger, or Bob chapek went for their positions they were required to send in transcripts.

Do people in finance put their grades on their resume? I've never seen a resume with grades on them.

Now some one mentioned the petroleum industry. My husband was an executive with Sunoco when he passed away, he started out as an environmental engineer with BP and I can assure you he had a number of C's.. I know 1/2 of the employees at the Sunoco refinery in south Philadelphia where the operators are making 70-100K a year with h.s. diplomas

Ellen Kullman (my ceo also worked for GE) and basically she started out entry level and got to management by excelling.

Now I'm a chemist. not sure how my grades played into the hiring decision as like I've said I've never been asked for a transcript. I've moved up in my company the same way I guess many people do, by working hard, doing my best and getting promoted over the years. but I've worked for major chemical companies, a nuclear power plant and a refinery (its how dh and I met). I've also pumped gas and worked for Macys on 34st.

Now I will say I'm over 50 so maybe when I started out in the job market things were different.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we have quite a number of US presidents (I know maybe not the best example. lol) who freely admitted they were not the best students?

 

[tasha99]

Don't know about that field, but do know that companies such as Ball Aerospace, when hiring new engineers, will not look at resumes of new college grads with GPA's under 3.5. Many of the Petroleum companies have even higher standards. (2013 ChemE kid with heavy Petroleum focus who was applying for jobs at Biotech and Petroleum companies.)

99% of the companies required a 3.5 - 3.8 minimum GPA.

Average starting salary for a Petroleum Engineer is well into the 90-100,000 per year. The C students are not going to get those jobs. Which I believe was the original question of the OP. Will a "C" average get a good job? Usually not in the engineering field.

Also, having watched an engineer in college for the past 4 years, there was no regurgitating of information on tests. In fact, one of the major stressors of the students (I heard the gripe sessions while study groups were at our house) was that the problems on the tests usually covered material not taught. To get an A on those tests, they needed to be able to apply learned concepts to a completely different situation. Only those who completely understood the concepts and could think outside the box were the ones who got A's.

The ones who only memorized and regurgitated were the ones who got the C's or worse because they did not understand the why or how, only knew the memorized formulas and how to apply them to the examples in class. They could not take the information and manipulate it to solve other problems.

When I took computer science classes, the tests were like that (I washed out as a senior because you had to have a 3.5 in CS classes to stay in the major). One thing though--there were tests where 20% was passing, and an A was less than 50%. It was pretty unnerving. My stepdad was a nuclear engineer, and he said when he got his degree, there were tests where everyone agonized--and the highest score was in the 30-40 percent range. Makes it very hard to know how well you did when all the grades are so drastically curved.

 

[sonnyjane]

When I took computer science classes, the tests were like that (I washed out as a senior because you had to have a 3.5 in CS classes to stay in the major). One thing though--there were tests where 20% was passing, and an A was less than 50%. It was pretty unnerving. My stepdad was a nuclear engineer, and he said when he got his degree, there were tests where everyone agonized--and the highest score was in the 30-40 percent range. Makes it very hard to know how well you did when all the grades are so drastically curved.

Who benefits from a class that produces such horrible test scores? My organic chem class was the same way - a 60% was an A. With that class all I wanted to do was pass. I'm a smart person, but that class was so foreign to me it might as well have been taught in Russian. I did the homework, study groups, went during office hours, but the tests were just bonkers and clearly I wasn't the only one without a grasp of things bc the curve was so outrageous. I think I ended up getting a C+ or B- (too lazy to look it up) but I never got anything higher than a 50% on any given exam. How is that ok?!?!

 

[snarlingcoyote]

Who benefits from a class that produces such horrible test scores? My organic chem class was the same way - a 60% was an A. With that class all I wanted to do was pass. I'm a smart person, but that class was so foreign to me it might as well have been taught in Russian. I did the homework, study groups, went during office hours, but the tests were just bonkers and clearly I wasn't the only one without a grasp of things bc the curve was so outrageous. I think I ended up getting a C+ or B- (too lazy to look it up) but I never got anything higher than a 50% on any given exam. How is that ok?!?!

It covers up poor teaching pretty darn well.

 

[sonnyjane]

It covers up poor teaching pretty darn well.

Yeah exactly!

 

[eliza61]

Who benefits from a class that produces such horrible test scores? My organic chem class was the same way - a 60% was an A. With that class all I wanted to do was pass. I'm a smart person, but that class was so foreign to me it might as well have been taught in Russian. I did the homework, study groups, went during office hours, but the tests were just bonkers and clearly I wasn't the only one without a grasp of things bc the curve was so outrageous. I think I ended up getting a C+ or B- (too lazy to look it up) but I never got anything higher than a 50% on any given exam. How is that ok?!?!

Which is the basic problem with trying to determine a good employee on the basis of grades alone. An A from one teacher could mean 10 different things to 10 other teachers. Heck my organic Chem classes had 300 people in it, the final exam was given in an auditorium with stadium seating, people paid other students to take the test. They were getting A's without even knowing what was on the test. LOL

 

[tinkerbellandeeyor]

And the point many people have been making is that there is more than engineering out there for people to find careers. No one is disputing that there are some fields that probably do look at GPA but they are not the only jobs out there and GPA is not always a good indicator of effort or ability.

That I agree with

 

[Art 1]

My Son just graduated from college. He has a good degree but was a lazy kind of student, mostly because he worked so much. But he is lazy when it comes to school work. Does just what needs done. He does have an excellent job history though as he worked full time for Apple while going to school full time and was well thought of by them throughout his area, Apple relied on him for certain things. He has had 3 companies going back and forth with him upping the other offers. Finally he signed on with one of them. None of the places asked for his grades. He has the degree that they want and a past history of being a hard worker.

 

[taitai]

And the point many people have been making is that there is more than engineering out there for people to find careers. No one is disputing that there are some fields that probably do look at GPA but they are not the only jobs out there and GPA is not always a good indicator of effort or ability.

I disagree with this. I think grades are a VERY good indicator of effort and ability. Does a student have a mastery of the subject? Is the student a hard worker? Is it the only indicator? No. However, it is a very, very good one. In terms of culling through resumes of undergrads (which is what the OP asked about), it is probably the single BEST indicator.

 

[christineann]

Many employers look at grades as a starting point. Smart employers will also check out references as well.

My employer received a resume from a paralegal who had recently moved to SC from the midwest. She appeared to be top notch with glowing references. Fortunately, HR called the senior partner who had written the recommendation. The recommendation was a forgery on his letterhead. She had been fired for being incompetent and cheating on her timesheet.

Another business owner I know called the state college listed on an employee's application (she said she had a business degree). She had never been enrolled there. Unfortunately, he didn't check until after she embezzled over $10,000 in 5 months from the business.

Employers, check those references!

 

[declansdad]

I disagree with this. I think grades are a VERY good indicator of effort and ability. Does a student have a mastery of the subject? Is the student a hard worker? Is it the only indicator? No. However, it is a very, very good one. In terms of culling through resumes of undergrads (which is what the OP asked about), it is probably the single BEST indicator.

See below.

Which is the basic problem with trying to determine a good employee on the basis of grades alone. An A from one teacher could mean 10 different things to 10 other teachers. Heck my organic Chem classes had 300 people in it, the final exam was given in an auditorium with stadium seating, people paid other students to take the test. They were getting A's without even knowing what was on the test. LOL

 

[taitai]

Presumably, the overwhelming majority of resumes come from applicants who did not cheat in college by having others take their tests.

 

[declansdad]

Presumably, the overwhelming majority of resumes come from applicants who did not cheat in college by having others take their tests.

Wasn't talking about the cheating part.

 

[eliza61]

Presumably, the overwhelming majority of resumes come from applicants who did not cheat in college by having others take their tests.

Im sure they do, but your being obtuse on purpose, the point is many employers are finding that test grades make poor indicators of ability.

Many, many colleges are moving away from SAT scores as being the prevailing matrix by which they choose their students. They realize that some thing as simple as not getting a good nights sleep or having test anxiety can seriously flaw the results.

As others proved above if your grades are skewed high or low, then the very definition of an A does not give a good indication of mastery of any thing.

Now as I said, my experience is in the chemical industry but it could apply basically to any field, we put more emphasis on a "well-rounded" individual. Without fail the Phd's who came in emphasizing their glowing grades made horrible horrible bosses. no people skills, no ability to teamwork, no ability to show initiative and they consistently get stuck in one place.

grades don't always show mastery of subject. As I mentioned, I went to the univ of Pitt. science and engineering classes were often huge so basically if you could regurgitate the material you would do well. Hardly an benchmark of "subject" matter

My dh worked for refineries (some one mentioned petroleum industries). they 1000% valued operator experience and promoted within. Sure we got engineering coops from University of Penn and Drexel, top engineering schools but what they found out, the people with the know how, the people who KNEW the systems were the operators with high school diplomas who had beenon the job DOING the work.

Personally I think people use grades for one reason and one reason only. simply because now in this crummy job market where every opening has 200 applicants it's a quick way to thin the herd. Not because the A student was oh so much more stellar.

Like I said, just my experience in two of the industries I'm familiar with.

We don't ask for transcripts so it's a moot point for me. We have many, many fellows, research assistants, primary investigators, engineers who just in talking mention they were not the best students for various reason and have contributed to the company a gazillon times over. When we advertise the type of employee we want we usually use words like talented and creative. that talent can come from a variety of different ways.



It's all good though, just wanted the "C" students out there to know. You are not doomed to a life of working at Mcdonalds. There are many, many places where your talents and contributions can be appreciated without having to send in your transcripts.

 

[disneylovin24]

Do they land jobs?

I know so many people who use this saying, and therefore don't take school seriously.
They would rather drink and skip than excel.

I can't lie, there are classes that are struggles, and I've gotten a C or 2, but there are just some classes that are impossible to no do well....like a dance class where all you do is show up and attempt!

I figure if anything, at least I know I did my best, and I learned disciple.

I think it all depends on the field. I'm a communications major and I know employers want to see what you did outside of the classroom more than what you did in it as long as you passed. Some majors however I can see why employers want to see good grades.

It also depends on the school. I think C's at say a Harvard will probably still give you a good chance to get a job.


Also - don't assume bad grades are because of drinking and partying. I had a rough first year of college grade wise and did none of that. Classes were just tough and it was a big adjustment.

 

[disneylovin24]

I disagree with this. I think grades are a VERY good indicator of effort and ability. Does a student have a mastery of the subject? Is the student a hard worker? Is it the only indicator? No. However, it is a very, very good one. In terms of culling through resumes of undergrads (which is what the OP asked about), it is probably the single BEST indicator.

Trust me, this is incorrect.

I am a VERY handworker and I understood a lot of the stuff taught to me in college but my grades are not the best. I have a few A's and B's but also a few C's. The C's were honestly just results of hard classes and professors. I go to a top 50 school in the country and it's just that hard sometimes.

 

[disney1990]

My DD is a RN at a top hospital in DC. They didn't want transcripts - only proof that they passed their boards.

 

[sonnyjane]

I find it interesting that anyone can say, either way, that "most" employers do or so not ask for transcripts. We can all say whether or not "most" employers we have worked for asked, but I can't imagine that any of us is qualified to say that "most" employers in the US do or don't ask. How would we know that?