Crowd Outlook

[Aluminum Falcon]

This reminds me of a quote from Dick Kinzel, the longtime Cedar Fair CEO. Dick had some definite successes. He orchestrated the Paramount acquisition; many folks thought that was overpriced but I think history has validated the decision. (He also bought Geaga Lake from Six Flags, a much less successful decision.) He was also one of those Old School guys who walked the park every day, and found it physically impossible to walk past trash without picking it up.

But, he was also a little backward looking when it came to a lot of the guest-facing parts of the experience. The food service, in particular, was lackluster. There were some bright spots, but mostly it was slow, over-priced and not very good. In a conference call discussing the impact of the recession on guest per-capita spending, he said they could price dining pretty much however they liked because, in effect people have to eat.

It took a while after his departure, but the chain has gotten much better at food service. Cedar Point in particular has really upped its game; they've built three major restaurants in the past four years, all of which are solid. It's still not cheap, but it is much faster, and much better quality.

Interestingly, the person who took over for Kinzel was Matt Ouimet, who had previously been the Disneyland Resort president.

I think what you're saying is valid, but when choosing to go to one of those parks, is food a consideration that would make or break whether or not you would go. I think for most, food is not a break for any theme park. The lower quality ones you wouldn't expect much, (I'm looking at you Six Flags) and the higher quality ones have so much more to offer.

 

[RivShore]

I don't think food is in the top 5 reasons for most people going to Disney, i would say that theming of restaurants is more important than food quality at this point. Could i be wrong about that, sure. am i wrong about it being out of peoples top reasons for visiting, nah

Ecept for the very large crowds that visit EPCOT and the many other food festivals, no?

 

[fatmanatee]

The food at Uni is generally pretty lackluster with a few exceptions, and as a bonus they don’t seem to care as much as Disney when it comes to dietary restrictions. It’s noticeable. They have a big chance to change that perception with EU.

 

[Aluminum Falcon]

Ecept for the very large crowds that visit EPCOT the the many food festivals, no?

I did think about that right after i posted. There definitely is a draw for the festivals, but i think it is pretty small in comparison. Disney typically uses festivals to entice people during its slow period, meaning that might be the extra little bit that gets people to book the vacation, but it's almost like an extra perk far from the driving focus for most.

I myself plan most my trips around food and wine, but there are 15 other reasons i choose that time of year. I love F&W, but even that food is meh in most cases compared to what i have at home.

 

[Brian Noble]

Disney typically uses festivals to entice people during its slow period

I think that was partly the point of Food & Wine. Now that the food booths are running all but a few months in the summer and a couple weeks during the changeover between Arts/Plants and FW/Holidays, that's less clear.

Now I think it has more to do with the fact that the booths print money.

 

[Bibbidi_Boo]

I think that was partly the point of Food & Wine. Now that the food booths are running all but a few months in the summer and a couple weeks during the changeover between Arts/Plants and FW/Holidays, that's less clear.

Now I think it has more to do with the fact that the booths print money.

It isn't even a few months in the summer, like a couple weeks. There are very few weeks a year now that don't have some sort of festival food booth.

 

[Aluminum Falcon]

I think that was partly the point of Food & Wine. Now that the food booths are running all but a few months in the summer and a couple weeks during the changeover between Arts/Plants and FW/Holidays, that's less clear.

Now I think it has more to do with the fact that the booths print money.

that's a good point, maybe it is becoming an expectation/ it may be such a money maker for Disney that they can't walk away at this point

 

[Tigger's ally]

that's a good point, maybe it is becoming an expectation/ it may be such a money maker for Disney that they can't walk away at this point

I think Disney had a great night time show ( Illuminations) and not a lot of rides. Most people liked the atmosphere at night around the lagoon and it was hard to fit all that came in the evenings in the existing restaurants . F&W was growing year after year and someone looked and said we can do this all year in varying degrees and of course nobody disagreed. And so it was done. Was it wise? Yes.

Now then, give us a great night time show once again to get us back where the masses will come and spend $$ in them booths and fill the restaurants. I love the feeling of a hopping WS in the evening hours.

 

[RivShore]

I will say that we have run into more than a few random DVC owners who plan their stays around F&W, especially if they have older/or no kids. Heck, I even know one person (cough, cough. lol) who decided to finally buy into DVC after his first visit to F&W.

 

[mickeyluv'r]

Exactly, i think there's a reason Uni dropped its parks where Disney was already successful. i suppose it can be argued that with the other smaller area parks you could make Central Florida a tourist destination without Disney, but no one park alone is enough of a draw IMO

Florida was a tourist destination long before Disney. https://flaglermuseum.us/history/flagler-biography

That's a big part of why Disney chose Florida.

Disney World was a game changer, but Florida was already a major vacation destination. Spring break was already a big deal by 1960.
Weeki Watchee was one of the nation's top tourist attractions as of the 1950's. Gatorland opened in 1949.
Ripley's Believe it or Not Museum opened in 1950. St Augustine was already home to the Castillo de San Marcos.
The Castillo is the oldest masonry fort in the USA, and is over 450 years old.
The Ponce de Leon Fountain of Youth Park dates to the 1860's. Silver Springs State Park also dates to the 1860's.
Indian River was also a draw: home to the top FL orange groves.
Kennedy Space Center was a significant tourist destination staring in 1964.
Florida officially adopted the name "Sunshine State" in 1970.
And of course, there's the Everglades.

Disney piggybacked off many pre-existing attractions.

Would Universal have chosen FL without Disney? That is a good question.

Sea World opened in 1973. It was predated by a long list of other animal attractions: Alligator Farm (1893), Monkey Jungle (1933), and the Serpentarium (1972).

It is entirely possible Sea World and Universal would have chosen to open parks in Florida if not for WDW.

Universal was already doing theme park entertainment before WDW opened. Universal Hollywood's backlot tours started in 1915, though the tour was discontinued for a long time, it was reborn in 1964. The first attraction was War Lord Tower in 1965. There was also a petting zoo. A 1968 Screen Actors Guild rule = the studio tour shifted significantly towards theme park experience, as they could no longer allow tours on live movie sets. Universal started adding theme park attractions in 1968, with several opening in the early 1970's.

Now of course that came after Disneyland, but it is very likely Universal would have developed without Disney. Coasters predate Disneyland by a wide margin. Leap the Dips - not the first coaster, but now the oldest in the US- dates to 1902.

 

[mickeyluv'r]

I don't think food is in the top 5 reasons for most people going to Disney, i would say that theming of restaurants is more important than food quality at this point. Could i be wrong about that, sure. am i wrong about it being out of peoples top reasons for visiting, nah

For you personally, maybe not.

For others, yes.

The Epcot Food and Wine Festival is a huge draw. It initially started at Disney Springs in 1981 as a one weekend event. Disney moved it to Epcot in 1996, and it ran from September 28- October 27.

This year it is slated to run July 15-November 19th. Disney would not have expanded it so much if it was not a draw. Food booths are now also a big part of the Art and Garden Festivals.

Next year, Disney plans to expand even further with the addition of the Communicore Plaza which will have a demonstration kitchen, a mixology bar, plus exhibition and gallery space.

More or less, a large portion of Epcot will be devoted to hosting festivals.

I think it is factual to say food is big part of why 'people' visit WDW.

 

[Tigger's ally]

I think it is factual to say food is big part of why 'people' visit WDW.

For repeat customers? Yes. But not for the once in a lifetime family travelers or the thrill seekers, or the commando parks people.

IN other words, it is factual to say both it is and it isn't.

 

[RivShore]

Florida was a tourist destination long before Disney. https://flaglermuseum.us/history/flagler-biography

That's a big part of why Disney chose Florida.

Disney World was a game changer, but Florida was already a major vacation destination. Spring break was already a big deal by 1960.
Weeki Watchee was one of the nation's top tourist attractions as of the 1950's. Gatorland opened in 1949.
Ripley's Believe it or Not Museum opened in 1950. St Augustine was already home to the Castillo de San Marcos.
The Castillo is the oldest masonry fort in the USA, and is over 450 years old.
The Ponce de Leon Fountain of Youth Park dates to the 1860's. Silver Springs State Park also dates to the 1860's.
Indian River was also a draw: home to the top FL orange groves.
Kennedy Space Center was a significant tourist destination staring in 1964.
Florida officially adopted the name "Sunshine State" in 1970.
And of course, there's the Everglades.

Disney piggybacked off many pre-existing attractions.

Would Universal have chosen FL without Disney? That is a good question.

Sea World opened in 1973. It was predated by a long list of other animal attractions: Alligator Farm (1893), Monkey Jungle (1933), and the Serpentarium (1972).

It is entirely possible Sea World and Universal would have chosen to open parks in Florida if not for WDW.

Universal was already doing theme park entertainment before WDW opened. Universal Hollywood's backlot tours started in 1915, though the tour was discontinued for a long time, it was reborn in 1964. The first attraction was War Lord Tower in 1965. There was also a petting zoo. A 1968 Screen Actors Guild rule = the studio tour shifted significantly towards theme park experience, as they could no longer allow tours on live movie sets. Universal started adding theme park attractions in 1968, with several opening in the early 1970's.

Now of course that came after Disneyland, but it is very likely Universal would have developed without Disney. Coasters predate Disneyland by a wide margin. Leap the Dips - not the first coaster, but now the oldest in the US- dates to 1902.

I think the discussion was more around would UO have been as successful as it is, with no WDW, not whether it would have be built in Central FL at all.

Yes Central Fl has been a tourist destination for a long time but that was centered on the coasts. The inland Orlando area was only attractive to developers because land was dirt cheap and it was kind of close to those established tourist areas. That probably means Universal might have chosen to build here, especially with a few other small parks in the area, but would it have been as successful without it's neighbor down the road attracting 50M people a year?

 

[Aluminum Falcon]

Florida was a tourist destination long before Disney. https://flaglermuseum.us/history/flagler-biography

That's a big part of why Disney chose Florida.

Disney World was a game changer, but Florida was already a major vacation destination. Spring break was already a big deal by 1960.
Weeki Watchee was one of the nation's top tourist attractions as of the 1950's. Gatorland opened in 1949.
Ripley's Believe it or Not Museum opened in 1950. St Augustine was already home to the Castillo de San Marcos.
The Castillo is the oldest masonry fort in the USA, and is over 450 years old.
The Ponce de Leon Fountain of Youth Park dates to the 1860's. Silver Springs State Park also dates to the 1860's.
Indian River was also a draw: home to the top FL orange groves.
Kennedy Space Center was a significant tourist destination staring in 1964.
Florida officially adopted the name "Sunshine State" in 1970.
And of course, there's the Everglades.

Disney piggybacked off many pre-existing attractions.

Would Universal have chosen FL without Disney? That is a good question.

Sea World opened in 1973. It was predated by a long list of other animal attractions: Alligator Farm (1893), Monkey Jungle (1933), and the Serpentarium (1972).

It is entirely possible Sea World and Universal would have chosen to open parks in Florida if not for WDW.

Universal was already doing theme park entertainment before WDW opened. Universal Hollywood's backlot tours started in 1915, though the tour was discontinued for a long time, it was reborn in 1964. The first attraction was War Lord Tower in 1965. There was also a petting zoo. A 1968 Screen Actors Guild rule = the studio tour shifted significantly towards theme park experience, as they could no longer allow tours on live movie sets. Universal started adding theme park attractions in 1968, with several opening in the early 1970's.

Now of course that came after Disneyland, but it is very likely Universal would have developed without Disney. Coasters predate Disneyland by a wide margin. Leap the Dips - not the first coaster, but now the oldest in the US- dates to 1902.

That is all well and good, I still don’t think that changes anything today. WDW is the tourist engine in central Florida, no matter what predated it, I still believe without it Uni wouldn’t be a driver by itself. I don’t think I’ve ever heard an argument saying that Disney “piggybacked” off successful businesses in the area already, and it honestly sounds a bit bizarre considering they modeled WDW off of an already thriving business model. To say that they had to copycat other businesses is banana land.

Pumping up Uni by saying Disney is unoriginal, and making it seem like any company could replicate their success by following tried and true business practices in the area comes off as a little nutty. Honestly what would have the greater impact on the region Disney closing up shop or Universal. You can run mental gymnastics all you’d like but the end result is still the same IMO,

 

[Aluminum Falcon]

For you personally, maybe not.

For others, yes.

The Epcot Food and Wine Festival is a huge draw. It initially started at Disney Springs in 1981 as a one weekend event. Disney moved it to Epcot in 1996, and it ran from September 28- October 27.

This year it is slated to run July 15-November 19th. Disney would not have expanded it so much if it was not a draw. Food booths are now also a big part of the Art and Garden Festivals.

Next year, Disney plans to expand even further with the addition of the Communicore Plaza which will have a demonstration kitchen, a mixology bar, plus exhibition and gallery space.

More or less, a large portion of Epcot will be devoted to hosting festivals.

I think it is factual to say food is big part of why 'people' visit WDW.

Outside of locals who frequent the parks, I don’t know of many who plan their trips based on food, they might try to plan a trip during certain times festivals happen, but not the reason they’re going on the trip. Locals which make up about 20% of WDW guests from what I’ve seen probably would plan trips solely around food, which makes perfect sense.

Essentially good food to me is a nice bonus if you will, not a driving force

 

[fatmanatee]

I don't think food is in the top 5 reasons for most people going to Disney, i would say that theming of restaurants is more important than food quality at this point. Could i be wrong about that, sure. am i wrong about it being out of peoples top reasons for visiting, nah

What are the top five reasons?

 

[Aluminum Falcon]

What are the top five reasons?

I would say for most
1. Vacation that accommodates the entire family
2. Immersive parks and rides
3. Resorts and amenities.
4. Park extras ie parades, fireworks, shows, ect
5. Escapism

I think you can add a lot of others, (nostalgia, right of passage for American kids, water parks, a chance to create memories, ect) and different strokes for different folks. I just don’t think you see food at any theme park, not just Disney as being a top reason to go. Shelling out $7k+ for a week at Disney for the food seems a bit much. It can be a nice adder, but not the reason you’re going IMO

 

[greeneyedchick]

Just a theory on my end, but I have felt like Disney thought they were close to hitting their annual capacity back in 15'-16'. They then added onto the parks to try and thin out crowds because of the cramming issue they were having. That only drew more guests to the parks which caused even more problems. Couple that with millennials learning how to game the system, and a new style of guests who do not have children but go anyway for the nostalgia and Disney had to raise prices and strip perks to try and make a more enjoyable experience for the people in the parks, and thin out the hoards of tourists coming in. Again just a theory

Or Disney could go back to having longer hours from 8am-2am. That would help a lot with crowding issues without requiring them to build more attractions. Sadly, they’re too cheap to do it

 

[Aluminum Falcon]

Or Disney could go back to having longer hours from 8am-2am. That would help a lot with crowding issues without requiring them to build more attractions. Sadly, they’re too cheap to do it

Or they may not have the staff capabilities to be able to run like that. I know that made problems for them in the past because they were running cast members ragged

 

[ChipnDale79]

I think Disney had a great night time show ( Illuminations) and not a lot of rides. Most people liked the atmosphere at night around the lagoon and it was hard to fit all that came in the evenings in the existing restaurants . F&W was growing year after year and someone looked and said we can do this all year in varying degrees and of course nobody disagreed. And so it was done. Was it wise? Yes.

Now then, give us a great night time show once again to get us back where the masses will come and spend $$ in them booths and fill the restaurants. I love the feeling of a hopping WS in the evening hours.

nothing like walking around that lagoon with the breeze coming off of it, with a fully belly, drink in hand, and listening to the background music from each country while waiting for illuminations to begin.