Criminalizing Home Schooling in CA

[Caradana]

Huh, I don't have a college degree, and I know all of what you listed above. And if I didn't, I know where to go to find the info to learn it. Or where to find a tutor for a specific subject.

And why only mom's potential? What about dad? Or grandparents? Aunts and uncles? Etc. Just in my circle of friends and family, I have people with masters or doctorate degrees in math, chemistry, engineering, music, English, nursing, business, finance, education, etc.

If you know all of that, I give you credit - because even you must know that you are in the vast minority of non-college grads who can take a derivative and balance a chemical equation - and I want to tell you that I feel for whatever situation kept you from college, because you exhibit a lot of academic potential that went unrealized.

Hire pros to educate your kids. The good news is, the pros are free - welcome to the American educational system. It blows my mind that there are people in the world who hire professionals to install decks and wallpaper living rooms, but not to to educate their own children, perhaps the most valuable asset they've ever quote-unquote 'owned.'

 

[sha_lyn]

This much I know to be true:
When mom doesn't know how cells work, the kid doesn't learn biology.
When mom can't take a derivative, the kid doesn't learn calculus.
When mom has never balanced an equation, the kid doesn't learn chemistry
and when Mom has never heard of Marx, the kid can forget about philosophy.
When mom can't figure out a proof, the kid doesn't learn geometry,
When mom thinks Napoleon is a dessert, the kid doesn't learn world history.
When mom is too busy couponing and websurfing to lyricize on Tennyson, the kid isn't going to get English literature, and
When mom thinks economics is learning how to cook and sew, we can throw that entire discipline into the homeschooling dumpster.

The kid is only going to learn to the limits of mom's potential.
I would like to see Mom showing at minimum the fortitude to get a college degree. If it's a teaching degree, even better, but I would hope for at least concrete proof that mom can stick with higher education for four years before she decides to take someone else's education into her hands.
This is why we respect, admire, and hopefully in the future, properly pay accredited teachers.

My $0.02.

P.S. I think the California Supreme Court will overturn this ruling.

Oh yes.... In your world home-school text books, computer programs, co-op classes, etc do not exist. We sit in our caves scrawling on the wall with a piece of coal, only being able to teach what we have retained.


Then again you don't believe the state records regarding our local elementary school. I provided inks to articles stating the school lost accreditation, and was then placed on probation. I provided links to state records of standardized test scores. I provided links to state statistics showing the number of students from our ele that required remedial or special education in middle and high school. However none of that mattered to you. According to you I am full of BS because you had a classmate that attended a different ele/middle school/high school in our county. Not to mention said classmate graduated before DS even entered into the system. Somehow the problems were either all my fault or all in my head, since a different school in our county produced an Ivy League student.

 

[sha_lyn]

I don't think anyone else has brought up this particular thought...
If all the home-schoolers went back in to the public school-systems, the burden of additional students placed back onto those systems would probably be overwhelming.

Schools in our county often open with enrollments of 110-140% of capacity. Those that haven't opened with over capacity enrollment, reach it within 2 years. While I don't have the statistics, my educated guess would be that between 3-4 thousand students home-school in our county alone.

 

[kimluvswdw]

I homeschool and do not have anything higher than a high school diploma, unless you count Real Estate School. I will say that since my kids started homeschooling they are so much better than they were in school. They scored 96% statewide. In school they never came close to that. I was amazed that my daughter was in the 7th grade and didn't know her multiplication tables, what a adverb was, or much else. I love the progress they are making. I get sick and tired of people who don't homeschool thinking that the homeschooled children are learning less, because they are taught at home. The parents have no right to judge the parents of homeschooled children. The state will know whether they are learning by their test results that they get at the end of the year. Here in Virginia testing is a must. The tests are given to us to give from a school and are returned to them to be graded. Parents are not allowed to grade them. Just my 2 cents.

It has been shown that many homeschooled children score higher on college entrance exams.

 

[Topper]

Personal attacks are not necessary

 

[tiggersmom2]

Schools in our county often open with enrollments of 110-140% of capacity. Those that haven't opened with over capacity enrollment, reach it within 2 years. While I don't have the statistics, my educated guess would be that between 3-4 thousand students home-school in our county alone.

I would say you are on the mark. I know in my county, in GA, there are thousands of home-schoolers. We are in a huge home-school group in middle georgia and our kids are always testing far, far above their public school cohorts.

 

[TinkerbellMama]

Hire pros to educate your kids. The good news is, the pros are free - welcome to the American educational system. It blows my mind that there are people in the world who hire professionals to install decks and wallpaper living rooms, but not to to educate their own children, perhaps the most valuable asset they've ever quote-unquote 'owned.'

This post smacks of ignorance. Please understand me...this is not a personal attack, I am NOT calling it stupidity, but ignorance of the reality of homeschooling AND the state of public education in America. No offense, but I am more highly educated than the vast majority of teachers in any school system, public or private. I also have a more well-rounded education. And a higher IQ. Not bragging...those are just the facts, and MANY of my homeschooling friends can say the same. My husband is an extremely smart and dedicated guy. I fail to see how the two of us wouldn't add up to better instructors, focusing solely on our ONE child's education, than a stranger with fewer qualifications other than classroom management (which we won't need). Seriously...I hate to go there, because it does sound snotty, but you really kinda asked for this type of response. The research shows that dedicated, loving parents of ANY educational level, who are committed to educating their children in a home-based environment, tend to do a better job than teachers in a classroom setting. This is because they have more flexibility, intimate knowledge of the child(ren)'s personality/learning style, a MUCH better teacher:student ratio, and the best motivation possible. I can tell from all of your replies so far that you know very little (or nothing at all) about such studies...anecdotally supporting my earlier assertion that the people who are the most against homeschooling are the least likely to know diddly-squat about it!! No teacher ever would or could have more invested in my son's future than I do. PERIOD.

If this seems rude or mean, I'm sorry...but you have insulted and attacked a lot of people who are doing their very best to ensure their children have a QUALITY education. The "pros" may be free, but they are inadequate, in my eyes. You couldn't pay me a million dollars to accept a public school education for my child, because he deserves better. I know many people who feel differently, who think their public schools are fantastic and their kids are doing really well there. AND I FULLY SUPPORT THEIR RIGHT TO MAKE THAT CHOICE. I don't denigrate them and tell them how they don't care about their kids' education, because first of all, that simply isn't true. They have simply made a different decision than my family. That's fine with me! Oftentimes, however, the sentiment is not reciprocated. And for the record, my husband does know how to install a deck and wallpaper a room. It has nothing whatsoever to do with his chosen profession, but he's good enough with home improvement/repair that family members often hire him to do such work for them. And he does an INCREDIBLE job! Maybe you just have very little faith in the intelligence/skill of most people, or is it just the dedication of homeschooling parents you question?

Rant over!!!!

 

[Nikel]

If you know all of that, I give you credit - because even you must know that you are in the vast minority of non-college grads who can take a derivative and balance a chemical equation - and I want to tell you that I feel for whatever situation kept you from college, because you exhibit a lot of academic potential that went unrealized.

Hire pros to educate your kids. The good news is, the pros are free - welcome to the American educational system. It blows my mind that there are people in the world who hire professionals to install decks and wallpaper living rooms, but not to to educate their own children, perhaps the most valuable asset they've ever quote-unquote 'owned.'

What kept me from finishing college was realizing how big of a waste of time and money it was for my chosen profession. Oh, and realizing that some fancy degree wasn't as important as I thought it was. When I'd turn in a solid C quality paper, and get it back with glowing comments and an A, obviously academic standards aren't all that.

Plus I don't learn well in a classroom setting, unless it is a very small classroom. Most things I learn at a faster pace than everyone, and then I get bored. And if it's something that I'm having a harder time grasping, I can't move on. It frustrates me. My ds is like that. He started reading this fall (actual books, not just random words), but he won't be able to start kindergarten until fall of 2009. My dd that turned 3 this year, is already reading words. DS is also adding and subtracting. They know shapes, including ones like decagon. They know about mixing colors, etc. Basically, kindergarten will be a bore. If he's like me, all of it will be, except for a few very very rare classes/teachers (for me - AP world history my sophomore year and AP calculus my sr year, that's it) FWIW, my friend that's graduating in May with her masters in early childhood education and knows my children, agrees with me in my decision to homeschool, at least until he levels off a bit academically.

 

[momto2girls]

If you know all of that, I give you credit - because even you must know that you are in the vast minority of non-college grads who can take a derivative and balance a chemical equation - and I want to tell you that I feel for whatever situation kept you from college, because you exhibit a lot of academic potential that went unrealized.

Hire pros to educate your kids. The good news is, the pros are free - welcome to the American educational system. It blows my mind that there are people in the world who hire professionals to install decks and wallpaper living rooms, but not to to educate their own children, perhaps the most valuable asset they've ever quote-unquote 'owned.'

I homeschool my children. Yes, I do have a college degree. In fact, I have two BAs and a Master's degree. However, I feel like I would be well-qualified to teach with much less than I have. I truly feel that most homeschoolers provide their children with an excellent education. And most accept and understand any limitations that they might have and find ways to fill in those gaps.

My children are young, but I hire experts to teach them in art and music, two areas which I feel they could benefit with other instruction. And as they get older, I will certainly hire private tutors for any courses that I feel would benefit them. Not all professionals are in the "free" American educational system.

 

[tiggersmom2]

This post smacks of ignorance. Please understand me...this is not a personal attack, I am NOT calling it stupidity, but ignorance of the reality of homeschooling AND the state of public education in America. No offense, but I am more highly educated than the vast majority of teachers in any school system, public or private. I also have a more well-rounded education. And a higher IQ. Not bragging...those are just the facts, and MANY of my homeschooling friends can say the same. My husband is an extremely smart and dedicated guy. I fail to see how the two of us wouldn't add up to better instructors, focusing solely on our ONE child's education, than a stranger with fewer qualifications other than classroom management (which we won't need). Seriously...I hate to go there, because it does sound snotty, but you really kinda asked for this type of response. The research shows that dedicated, loving parents of ANY educational level, who are committed to educating their children in a home-based environment, tend to do a better job than teachers in a classroom setting. This is because they have more flexibility, intimate knowledge of the child(ren)'s personality/learning style, a MUCH better teacher:student ratio, and the best motivation possible. I can tell from all of your replies so far that you know very little (or nothing at all) about such studies...anecdotally supporting my earlier assertion that the people who are the most against homeschooling are the least likely to know diddly-squat about it!! No teacher ever would or could have more invested in my son's future than I do. PERIOD.

If this seems rude or mean, I'm sorry...but you have insulted and attacked a lot of people who are doing their very best to ensure their children have a QUALITY education. The "pros" may be free, but they are inadequate, in my eyes. You couldn't pay me a million dollars to accept a public school education for my child, because he deserves better. I know many people who feel differently, who think their public schools are fantastic and their kids are doing really well there. AND I FULLY SUPPORT THEIR RIGHT TO MAKE THAT CHOICE. I don't denigrate them and tell them how they don't care about their kids' education, because first of all, that simply isn't true. They have simply made a different decision than my family. That's fine with me! Oftentimes, however, the sentiment is not reciprocated. And for the record, my husband does know how to install a deck and wallpaper a room. It has nothing whatsoever to do with his chosen profession, but he's good enough with home improvement/repair that family members often hire him to do such work for them. And he does an INCREDIBLE job! Maybe you just have very little faith in the intelligence/skill of most people, or is it just the dedication of homeschooling parents you question?

Rant over!!!!

Jumping up and down and giving a standing ovation to Tinkerbellmama

I am so sick of people thinking we are "hurting" our kids, when the test scores and data show the opposite. I don't want to toot my own horn, but darnit, I will. I have TWO college degrees and my husband does also. My mother has a doctorate degree and my father is a dentist(we ALL chip in with their education, so it is relative)....my kids will be just fine, and they will EXCEL.

I think people turning their noses up at home-school, should rather be focusing on the degradation of public schools in this nation.

 

[Planogirl]

I can see why academics as they are wouldn't work for everyone. However it is a bit frustrating when a person works hard for their college degree and it doesn't seem to be necessary.

It's all way too complicated and makes me very grateful for our good school system here.

 

[luvsJack]

Having a college degree does not make someone capable of teaching. It is a piece of paper that says you "may teach" it does not say you "can teach". Working in a community college with people with many degrees from a BS to a PhD has taught me that education does not necessarily have anyting to do with intelligence and it takes intelligence to teach.

I do believe that people who homeschool thier children should be held to some type of standard. Here they only have to sign a piece of paper saying their have a curriculum, no testing, nothing after that. I believe the children should have to take a final each year to make sure they are on grade level and/or are getting any services needed. I do not homeschool, but that's just a personal choice. I have seen kids that were homeschooled that did wonderfully and I have seen kids that were "homed" not "schooled" and could not read by 4th grade. It has to do with the parent, not the degree he/she does or does not hold.

 

[chris1gill]

I have often wondered how parents taught subjects they weren't well skilled in, for some of us, that's foreign language... I have a degree in Computer Science with minor in Business, I have extensive writing skills. My Husband has two four year degree's one in Physics, one in Electrical Engineering. I have some post grad work in teaching, all of our son's early teacher's agreed I would be an advocate and strong teacher, as they had seen the work I'd done with him already.... I agree that all the degree's in the world do not help if you cannot relate to your child on this type of academic level. However, in the first school we went to, most of those teacher's could not teach their subjects for a variety of reasons, many of which were no fault of their own.

If there was anyone competent to teach her children, it was me, I look back at our public school days and kick myself, I could have done so much better. I look back at our private Independent school that we moved over to, and those teachers were cream of the crop. If they couldn't teach their subject in total depth and breadth they did not stick around... Those years we spent in that school were fantastic... But I know my sons first 3 years would have been best served by being homeschooled at home as opposed to learning bad work habits in public school and nothing more, anything academic he'd already learned at home, and most of it on his own with his own curiousity....

I think there is some justification to require homeschooling parents to prove they can teach the subjects for which they are required... For foreign language we would have obviously hired a private tutor had we gone the homeschooling route. I know this, because we were going to homeschool until we were fortunate enough to find the private school we moved over to.....

But I think this is a very obvious flaw with homeschooling... many can do it successfully, it is the others I worry about.

 

[N.Bailey]

I know I'm coming in at the end of this conversation, but I absolutely support a parents right to choose. I just wish there were some measures in place to catch the kids that do seem to slip thru the cracks. I could use my niece as one example. The girl doesn't have the social skills to answer a telephone. She's now 19 and I question what life has in store for her. It truly makes me sad. Around 2 years ago or so, she spent a few days with us and got into the Nintendo game, Animal Crossing. We all like the game in my family, so we'll sit and watch someone else playing it from time to time. This child was so embarrassed of her reading skills that she wouldn't read the text that came across the screen aloud (and I didn't push the issue, instead I just read it aloud). No matter what, no one was going to talk any sense into my BIL. His kid was NOT going to any public school and that was that.

I truly believe these types of cases are the exception rather than the rule, though. While I wouldn't even make the attempt myself, I know many parents who have home schooled their children and they exceed the standards of the public school system on just about every level.

I also know that I am fortunate enough to live in an area where my children go to a pretty good school. Not everyone is so lucky and not everyone can afford private schooling. I wouldn't want to send my children to a school where crime seems to be the order of the day (though it can happen anywhere at anytime). I just don't think a state should have any say in where the child is educated, as long as they are educated.

 

[MrsPete]

This much I know to be true:
When mom doesn't know how cells work, the kid doesn't learn biology.
When mom can't take a derivative, the kid doesn't learn calculus.
When mom has never balanced an equation, the kid doesn't learn chemistry
and when Mom has never heard of Marx, the kid can forget about philosophy.
When mom can't figure out a proof, the kid doesn't learn geometry,
When mom thinks Napoleon is a dessert, the kid doesn't learn world history.
When mom is too busy couponing and websurfing to lyricize on Tennyson, the kid isn't going to get English literature, and
When mom thinks economics is learning how to cook and sew, we can throw that entire discipline into the homeschooling dumpster.

You're right. It isn't so much that a parent who lacks a teaching degree is incapable of learning these things from books, or that he or she cannot find someone else to teach them, it's more a matter of not being aware of them.

I teach high school English, and I know that subject backwards and forwards. If we're talking math, of course, I'm proficient, but I don't have a good grasp on what's necessary to prepare for geometry or physics -- not at the level that should be taught to a colllege-bound student. Sure, I can read a book and refresh my memory as a student learns the material, but I lack the background knowledge to add in enrichment activities to make the subject come alive.

I'll give an example: Reading much of anything online will tell you quickly that the average poster doesn't have a great grasp of commas, aspostrophes, and pronouns (and please don't fall back on the tired "no one cares on a message board"). Furthermore, many posters seem to think that "alot" is a word, many confuse simple words like "advise" and "advice", and they don't recognize that the verb "get" is substandard English. Obviously, these people are CAPABLE of learning how to use commas, and they could easily learn to use these other words properly, BUT THEY WON"T because they aren't aware that they're using them wrong! One doesn't correct what one doesn't recognize as a problem! So it's awfully easy for them to pass them on to another generation.

Writing, of course, is just one example. Similar arguments could be made for other aspects of education.

My thoughts on this new legislation are two-fold: While I'm not a big fan of homeschooling, I don't think we should curtail people's rights to raise their children as THEY see fit. At the same time, I think states should have some standards to make sure that kids receive a well-rounded educational program and that the basics are met. The state does have a vested interest in this: first, it's good for everyone if our citizens are literate and have a working knowledge of basic subjects -- setting some standards helps assure that this will happen; second, many of these homeschool kids will enter public school in high school, and no one wants to see them behind their peers -- and we know that while some of them will receive wonderful educations filled with outstanding enrichment activities, others will complete a Walmart-purchased workbook and say, "I finished 4th grade math."

 

[da-winnie-pooh]

I had a very intelligent friend who was certified to teach math and English. She taught biology.

Now, I could rant and rave about how she wasn't qualified to teach science and this was in a "good" public school. I do know that many public school teachers have an "emergency" teaching certificate because they can't pass the EASY state tests. Yeah, they're easy, I took them, I passed.

But, she did fine teaching biology (to 40+ students per class ) because she had the textbook and stayed ahead of her students, just as home educators do. If she didn't know the answer, she found it, just as home educators do.

My dd was reading at age 3, I could have put her in kindergarten at 5 where she would have sat in a chair and heard, "This is A. Apple starts with A." So, now she's in 8th grade and tests at the post-high-school level in all subjects, except math. She picked out a science textbook at a garage sale when she was about 5 and read it. She wouldn't have had time to do that if she'd been cutting out pictures of objects that start with A for "homework."

She now uses a DVD curriculum and is learning a lot. She's also using a math curriculum that was originally designed for learning-disabled kids and is rapidly catching up (she's at grade level, she's just capable of doing much better).

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but there is so much mis-information out there about homeschooling vs. public schools.

My dc and their homeschooled friends are doing just fine and it doesn't seem to make much of a difference whether or not Mom has a degree. Just that Mom and Dad are willing to work to educate the kids!

 

[MrsPete]

I know I'm coming in at the end of this conversation, but I absolutely support a parents right to choose. I just wish there were some measures in place to catch the kids that do seem to slip thru the cracks. I could use my niece as one example. The girl doesn't have the social skills to answer a telephone. She's now 19 and I question what life has in store for her. It truly makes me sad. Around 2 years ago or so, she spent a few days with us and got into the Nintendo game, Animal Crossing. We all like the game in my family, so we'll sit and watch someone else playing it from time to time. This child was so embarrassed of her reading skills that she wouldn't read the text that came across the screen aloud (and I didn't push the issue, instead I just read it aloud). No matter what, no one was going to talk any sense into my BIL. His kid was NOT going to any public school and that was that.

Sadly, these kids can be found in all types of educational settings. I agree that they are the exception rather than the rule, but THEY are why the state needs to enforce standards for all children's educations.

 

[sha_lyn]

I do believe that people who homeschool thier children should be held to some type of standard. Here they only have to sign a piece of paper saying their have a curriculum, no testing, nothing after that. I believe the children should have to take a final each year to make sure they are on grade level and/or are getting any services needed. I do not homeschool, but that's just a personal choice. I have seen kids that were homeschooled that did wonderfully and I have seen kids that were "homed" not "schooled" and could not read by 4th grade. It has to do with the parent, not the degree he/she does or does not hold.

I really don't know where I stand on the issue of "what should be required of home-schoolers". Part of me feels that standardized testing is an OK, non- intrusive means of tracking. However what bothers me is what type of results would be required to "pass". I will use both of my children as an example:

DS attended PS K-6. He had high-average to above average scores prior to our moving. His scores gradual feel 3-6 grade, with most of his 6th grade scores falling in the low-average range, with 1 or 2 below average, and spelling remained high-average.
His scores slowly began to improve once we began homeschooling, but didn't recover from his ele experience for a couple of years. If a flat min score was set, would DS be required to return to a PS that had lower averages than his scores?

DD attended a private pre-K. Her birthday is 3 weeks before the cut-off for PS. DD was also tiny for her age. Had she entered into K on the schools schedule she would have been the youngest and smallest in her class. She lacked the fine and gross motor skills that her pre-K teacher felt DD needed to attend K. Had she attended public K, she very likely would have been held back. Would our decision to "hold her back" while home-schooling force her in public or private school if laws were more strict? That first yr of home-schooling I tested her for K and she was on the low end of normal. I did not test her again until last spring, when we finished up 3rd grade (but according to the school calendar she would be 4th grade). She scored higher than average on most portions of the test, with a couple of scores being in the high-average range. Would stricter requirements require me to test her at a 4th grade level instead?
DD would have been labeled with a reading disorder/remedial reader in PS K-2. However she was still lagging behind due her fine and gross motor skills. I also believe much of it was lack of confidence and motivation. Once we found something she was interested in reading, her reading improved greatly. Once she realized she could read, she wanted to read. She went from slightly below grade level, to slightly above grade level in 1 year. Now 1 yr later I would say she is about a yr above grade level.

 

[MrsPete]

I had a very intelligent friend who was certified to teach math and English. She taught biology.

Now, I could rant and rave about how she wasn't qualified to teach science and this was in a "good" public school. I do know that many public school teachers have an "emergency" teaching certificate because they can't pass the EASY state tests. Yeah, they're easy, I took them, I passed.

But, she did fine teaching biology (to 40+ students per class ) because she had the textbook and stayed ahead of her students, just as home educators do. If she didn't know the answer, she found it, just as home educators do.

Sure, an intelligent person can stay a step ahead of the students and "make do", but a teacher who has taught the subject for a couple years has a number of advantages over that person:

He knows that students have found Chapter 4 difficult in the past, so he plans extra lessons to help the students find their way through the difficult parts. He knows this BEFORE the students find themselves wallowing in terms they don't know and BEFORE they all fail the first quiz.

He has already run through the project that goes with Chapter 6 a couple times, and he knows that the first year he made it "too easy"; thus, he's added in another more challenging portion, and now it's a great compliment to the book work.

He already knows the material himself, so he doesn't have to take time to learn it; this allows him more time to put together differentiated lessons for the students (some remedial vocabulary for the slower students and an extra credit presentation for the advanced students).

Sure, a teacher (or homeschooler) can learn alongside the students, but the teacher who's been through it a couple times already is going to have the upper hand. Know why I teach Shakespeare so well? Ditto for a number of novels? I teach them well because I've practiced! Does that mean I couldn't teach other things? Of course not, but my students learn more (and make better grades) during my "tried and true" lesson.

 

[sha_lyn]

You're right. It isn't so much that a parent who lacks a teaching degree is incapable of learning these things from books, or that he or she cannot find someone else to teach them, it's more a matter of not being aware of them.

The average "Joe" isn't aware because they have no need to be. However, one can not be active in the home-school community (be it IRL or online) and not be aware of most, if not all, of what is available.