Criminalizing Home Schooling in CA

I don't believe the OP was stereotyping home schoolers. She was just commenting on one family.

What's wrong with making sure parents are capable of teaching various subjects? Maybe states will come up with a home schooling certification.
The thing that is wrong is that the State isn't any good at it and should not be considered the expert. When you suck at something, you shouldn't demand to be in charge of telling others how to do it.

Another thing that is wrong is that this is America and people should be free to do as they please with their children.
 
What are in place for private schools?
My question exactly.

Our district is a good one and we moved here for that very reason. I personally think that ALL kids should get top notch education whatever the method used and I believe that some kids are falling through the cracks again whatever method used.
 
The thing that is wrong is that the State isn't any good at it and should not be considered the expert. When you suck at something, you shouldn't demand to be in charge of telling others how to do it.

Another thing that is wrong is that this is America and people should be free to do as they please with their children.
Within reason I agree with you. But we don't allow any kind of abuse or neglect. I personally think that a poor education could be a form of neglect.
 

What are in place for private schools?

depends on the state and the private school. the school my kids attend actualy has higher educational requirements for their teachers than many states (including the one we live in).
 
Within reason I agree with you. But we don't allow any kind of abuse or neglect. I personally think that a poor education could be a form of neglect.
Then we should prosecute the administrators of the Cleveland Public Schools. :thumbsup2
 
2) in most states private school teachers are not required to hold teaching degrees, pass any testing, much less rigorous testing... etc. IMHO it would be ridiculous to have more strick standards for home-school parents than what are in place for private schools.

It depends on the school.

I've found that the bad private schools don't require degrees and certification. These schools deal with the same issues and have the same poor test scores as the local public schools. Oh, the student teacher ratio is a joke. ONLY 30:1 in grades 2-8 or 25:1 Pre-K-1.

The good schools demand require degrees and certification. Their student/teacher ratio is lower. The kids tend to do score well on standardized testing.
 
Having a credentialed teacher does not assure a quality education.

But I do think that there should be a way to assure the kids are achieving their grade appropriate benchmarks.

I also believe that that a reasonably intelligent parent without a degree can educate their child through middle school, but if the motives for the child being homeschooled is not to academically advance the child, but to socially indoctrinate the child (think Jesus Camp) I see more potential for harm than good.

I think for a parent to educate their child after middle school would take major outsourcing of math and science.
 
There are plenty of folks who wouldn't need to "outsource" (get help) to teach their kids. I can teach my kids more Science than the schools can. And I do. :) I can also teach them all high school math, with the exception of Calculus. And I could get a book and teach myself Calc if I wanted to teach them how to do it.

One of my son's friends had the following notation on her first college paper: "Your writing style betrays a public school education." Kind of sums it all up.
 
I was addressing state laws/requirements only. I am well aware that private schools can set standards for their teachers.
There are many of the opinion that Home-schoolers should be held up to certain standards. I was pointing out that in many states, private schools are not held to such standards. I stand by my opinion that it would hypocritical for a state to have stricter requirements for home-schoolers, than what they have for private schools.
I will go further to say that I find it hypocritical for any individual to hold the opinion that HS'ers should be held to state(district etc) required standards that are higher than that of private schools.
 
Since I know a lot of homeschoolers will click on this thread...here ya go!! ;)
I'll leave the issues raised in the OP alone!! :lmao:

Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 7:44 PM
Subject: From HSC Legal Re: Controversial California Legal Decision

I have been astonished about the hype about this case. So many have
been making sensational claims that parents will be criminally
prosecuted, etc.

Please rest assured about a number of things. First, the law, other
than this court's interpretation, hasn't changed. Parents involved in
a truancy prosecution might face criminal charges, but only after a
rather lengthy series of hearings and court orders, and only if the
parents failed to comply with the orders. It would be a criminal
contempt charge, which isn't nothing but doesn't land you in Pelican Bay.

We have never known conscientious parents ever to be prosecuted under
truancy laws to the point of contempt charges. It's highly unlikely.

The media also appear to be saying that no one can teach their
children without a credential. I am not certain that the holding is
that broad, and I also doubt it would survive legal challenge.

The holding really applied to private ISPs (there are persistent
mistatements, that began with fact statements in the case, that the
family was enrolled in a charter. Obviously a school with the name
"Christian" in it wouldn't be a public charter. It was a private ISP).
It could be read by someone reading broadly as applying to any
situation where the child is not continuously in the presence of a
credentialed teacher.

The court started on a very slippery path of appearing to think that
some situations were OK and others weren't, effectively trying to
enact an entire code of regulations for governing this situation from
the bench. He hasn't been given the constitutional authority, of
course, to do this.

How do we get rid of this case?

There are a number of paths. One is seeking actual review by the
Supreme Court. HSC and at least several of the other major groups'
legal teams aren't in favor of that. Even if you could get the court
to accept your petition (they only take 3-5% of cases), the chances
that it will be decided the way you want aren't real good. It's a very
dangerous road to take, because if the Supreme Court were to affirm
the appellate court ruling on either of the main points
(constitutional or statutory), there aren't many options left. The
constitutional argument, of course, could be appealed to the US
Supreme Court, but the statutory case about the proper interpretation
of the California Education Code could not. California Supreme Court
is the last stop on that road. If that happens, then you have two bad
choices that I'll discuss below.

There is another much easier choice, and it's the one we want, as well
as the one being trumpeted in the HSLDA petition. You ask the
California Supreme Court to depublish the opinion, or, in other words,
have them say that while this might have been the right result in this
particular case involving this particular set of facts, the court
finds that the reach of the opinion is overbroad and should not become
law for the entire state. That is the choice we all (meaning HSC and,
I believe, the other groups) want.

You get this by filing a letter with the Supreme Court in compliance
with the applicable rules of court. While anyone can file one by
stating their interest, we DO NOT think it is an appropriate use of
grassroots activism. We DO NOT want every HSC member or HSLDA member
or grandmother or irate citizen dashing off their letters to the
Supreme Court. There are sober, measured, legal arguments to make
about why depublication is appropriate, and those arguments are made
after researching the applicable standards, etc. The Supreme Court
will not be swayed positively by public outcry. In fact, it could
backfire, and backfire badly.

If the Supreme Court affirms on the statutory points, then the two bad
choices are to either seek legislation or to do nothing and hope that
a further case is brought that can involve a better set of facts and
better explanation of the issues (and reaching a better result). Both
are very dangerous. Legislation isn't the answer because of the
extraordinary strength of the teachers' union. It is unlikely we will
see any legislation ultimately pass that gives us the freedom we have
today. And the second choice is dangerous. I know lots of families
that would make terrific test case defendants -- they're
conscientious, they actually get their kids educated, they follow the
laws. But we don't get to pick who the family is. As a friend of mine
said, we couldn't have gotten a worse set of facts for this case if we
had a contest.

We are trying to get one or more of the fanciest law firms in the
state to help us on taking the fangs out of this case. We know what
we're doing. Please let us do our jobs.

I would be personally, professionally, and, as a representative of
HSC, globally grateful if everyone on this list would calm down and
ask others to calm down. Specifically, I would ask people:

a. Not to write to the Supreme Court or any court.

b. Not to talk to their legislators or make any public statements
about a need for legislation.

c. Tell their neighbors, friends, lists, groups both of the above and
to educate them about the choices available and about how panic isn't
necessary, marches on Sacramento aren't necessary, etc.

I wish this were the type of situation where we could put the fury,
passion and energy of the members of this list to good use. Trust me,
if we end up having to go the legislative route, we will have that
situation at some points. But this isn't that type of situation, and
too many folks stirring things up hurts instead of helps.

Thanks for listening.

Debbie Schwarzer
HSC Legal Team Co-chair
 
I think for a parent to educate their child after middle school would take major outsourcing of math and science.

depends on what you consider "major outsourcing".
There are many resources out there to provide advanced math/science or other classes. For example a few options are: local private tutors,distance education programs, well written home-school student guides, video classes, auditing or fully enrolling in local community college classes, co-op classes
 
2) in most states private school teachers are not required to hold teaching degrees, pass any testing, much less rigorous testing... etc. IMHO it would be ridiculous to have more strick standards for home-school parents than what are in place for private schools.

Honestly, I had no idea that private schools didn't require even a teacher's certificate. Frankly, that's disturbing to learn that.

Another thing that is wrong is that this is America and people should be free to do as they please with their children.

Not giving your children a basic education is tantamount to child abuse, as you are setting them up for a life of failure. Yes, I realize that you feel you can teach your children with no problem. But so might the person in the "worst case scenario" that someone mentioned earlier. So might someone that believes the earth is 10,000 years old and that man used to ride dinosaurs to work every day.

Bottom line, it is in the state's interest - society's interest - to ensure all children receive a basic education. That is more true in today's high-tech world and economy than has ever been the case in the past.
 
There are plenty of folks who wouldn't need to "outsource" (get help) to teach their kids. I can teach my kids more Science than the schools can. And I do. :) I can also teach them all high school math, with the exception of Calculus. And I could get a book and teach myself Calc if I wanted to teach them how to do it.

I think that is admirable, but I seriously doubt most parents that are not college educated would be up for the task. Frankly the college education does not assure anything either.
 
Then we should prosecute the administrators of the Cleveland Public Schools. :thumbsup2

What about the parents?

Are they making sure their child attends school each day?

Are the kids prepared for school?

Are the parents available and supportive?

Is there someone in the home to assist with homework/studying?

Do the parents value education?

If the parents had to decide between paying a tutor or buying the latest sneakers, Ipod, cell phone... which would they pick? (I know plenty of sorry parents that would skip the tutor, then complain when their child fails)
 
I also believe that that a reasonably intelligent parent without a degree can educate their child through middle school, but if the motives for the child being homeschooled is not to academically advance the child, but to socially indoctrinate the child (think Jesus Camp) I see more potential for harm than good.

ITA....The only home-schoolers I have met (IRL or online) that concern me are those who home-school for strict religious beliefs. However they will always have the legal option in most cases to set up religious private schools to circumvent any home-school laws that would prevent their "religious agenda".

I must admit that I used to be wary of certain homeschool "methods". I have a good friend that started using the term radical unschooler a couple of years ago. I was a bit concerned that she might not be meeting the academeic needs of her children. I've started spending a lot of time with her kids recently through several activities. I must say that her children are ahead of most of their peers, both homeschooled and public schooled.
 
Bottom line, it is in the state's interest - society's interest - to ensure all children receive a basic education. That is more true in today's high-tech world and economy than has ever been the case in the past.

I swear, I will just make this one ITSY BITSY comment and then I'll be silent!! :rotfl:

This was the exact argument used to force public schooling on the nation. And the overall standard of general education/literacy/numeracy started going down the tubes almost right away. Look it up if you want; it's unfortunately true. People have this concept of a bunch of illiterate, innumerate, ignorant folks sitting around unproductive and clueless in the days before compulsory schooling. Not even remotely accurate!! And if you think the public school system in America, "ensures all children receive a basic education," then I don't know what to tell you. That's just utterly untrue, by any stretch of the imagination...unless your definition of basic includes very low standards!!! :upsidedow I'm just sayin'.

Oh, and one more TEENSY WEENSY thing (I know, I lied--sorry!!:lmao: ). I love how the people who are most against homeschooling or want to see it regulated to the hilt are the people who know the least about it (and Constitutional law, as well)!! Without fail!! And I say that as someone who researched homeschooling professionally for a while.
 
Would any homeschool advocate deny that there are some homeschoolers not up to the job just as some schools aren't? What about those people, should they just be ignored?
 
Would any homeschool advocate deny that there are some homeschoolers not up to the job just as some schools aren't? What about those people, should they just be ignored?

No, and no. Again, as with all things political, you're not making a logical argument when you say, we want to prevent X by doing Z, so if you're against Z, you must be for X!!! Um, there are many other ways to try to prevent X, most of them much better for many, many reasons. Yet most people will insist there is only one way--theirs (and it's usually immoral or illegal, on some level). I just can't wrap my mind around the way that works out in people's minds. OH MY GOD I JUST CAN'T STOP POSTING!!!!! :rotfl2:
 
What about the parents?

Are they making sure their child attends school each day?

Are the kids prepared for school?

Are the parents available and supportive?

Is there someone in the home to assist with homework/studying?

Do the parents value education?

If the parents had to decide between paying a tutor or buying the latest sneakers, Ipod, cell phone... which would they pick? (I know plenty of sorry parents that would skip the tutor, then complain when their child fails)
Frankly, I'm so tired of the schools' many excuses for failing to educate the children - and especially tired of them blaming the parents - that I don't even argue it any longer. I will stipulate that the schools believe that it is everyone's fault but theirs that they don't do their job.

But, if they feel the job is impossible, they should close the doors and give back all that tax money, especially since the worst districts are sucking up more money than the best ones. We can buy a few busses and send those city kids to better schools or spend even less money and send them to the even better private schools and be done with it.
 

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