Credit cards with chips aren't completely secure

[sunshinehighway]

The more I read, the more I think he must mean that the daughter's friend has RFID as contactless (or proximity) payment is less common here at the moment. That is not to say that it doesn't exist, just not at all establishments.

However, as I mentioned earlier, I think there are probably a lot of facts missing from the story as he also mentioned the banks closing on a Friday, for the weekend. Pretty much every high street bank is open in the morning on Saturdays too

Maybe he's confusing the two but we don't have credit cards that only have a proximity chip. That's not really a widely used method of card payment. Any card that does have that type of chip would still have a magnetic strip.
The original article he linked could have been referring to a card with a rfid chip. The article actually mentions nothing about smart chips which is what the other threads were about.
It's just so odd to me that he has a bunch of people (some of whom live in the areas he is talking about) telling him his information is incorrect and he continues like nobody knows what they are talking about.

 

[mommasita]

Now you are trying to tell Canadians what the Canadian experience is? I think you watch too much tv.

 

[wilma-bride]

Totally off topic but I noticed you don't have anything in there for the monarch's birthday. In Canada we have Victoria Day to celebrate the Queen's birthday. I'm just surprised you don't have anything similar.

Government employees (of which I am one) get the Queen's Birthday as a privilege holiday, but it is not a public holiday. It is around the late Spring Bank Holiday at the end of May (it is my personal favourite Bank Holiday because I only have to take 3 days leave from work and I get a whole week off )

 

[Bonnie151]

I can also vouch for the fact that Morrisons uses chip and pin machines. I shop there at least once a week. I suspect the OP is not understanding the situation or possibly that this friend of her daughter has a defective card.

 

[bcla]

Maybe he's confusing the two but we don't have credit cards that only have a proximity chip. That's not really a widely used method of card payment. Any card that does have that type of chip would still have a magnetic strip.
The original article he linked could have been referring to a card with a rfid chip. The article actually mentions nothing about smart chips which is what the other threads were about.
It's just so odd to me that he has a bunch of people (some of whom live in the areas he is talking about) telling him his information is incorrect and he continues like nobody knows what they are talking about.

There are a lot of different payment schemes out there. Mobil had the SpeedPass system, which wasn't a widespread credit card but an RFID system that was connected with their house credit card.

Credit and debit cards are moving to more secure systems than the traditional passive magnetic strip in the back. They would use some sort of contact and/or contactless smart-card system. I know "chip and pin" has been mentioned as a generic term, but it's a trademark in the UK and Ireland and for specific areas where a PIN is actually required. I don't know of anywhere where a PIN is required for a credit card in the US except when one tries to use a credit card for a cash advance. The whole idea of the smart card systems would be that they're more secure than a magnetic strip and don't actually transmit your credit card number.

Additionally - I've got at least one card that can't be imprinted with an old fashioned imprinting machine. The number isn't even on the front - just my name in barely raised letters. I've actually had to use an imprinter once, when I wanted to cash out from a debit car via a "Visa cash transaction" at a bank. They still had an imprinter, and I got a hand-written receipt with a carbon form. I'd almost forgotten how messy those things were.

 

[tvguy]

There's nothing controversial about what you're posting (Canadian conversations aside) however the UK has a total of 8 public holidays per year (Christmas Day, Boxing Day, New Years Day, Good Friday, Easter Monday, May Day, Spring Bank Holiday, Summer Bank Holiday). Now that may well be more than the US but I very much doubt it.

As far as your comments about Morrisons and clerks being able to deal only with cash transactions, that is complete and utter rubbish, I'm afraid. Since cheques are being phased out here in the UK too, if you couldn't pay by card, you would have no other method of payment.

I never said anything about checks. Are you saying they don't take cash?

 

[tvguy]

Back to the topic I posted, which I stand by

Credit cards with chips aren't completely secure

 

[firecracker725]

Back to the topic I posted, which I stand by Credit cards with chips aren't completely secure

No one claimed they were?

 

[NHdisneylover]

Back to the topic I posted, which I stand by

Credit cards with chips aren't completely secure

I do not think a single person disagreed with that.

Most of us took issue with your further assertions that chip cards do not work well in the UK and magnetic strips are often taken but cards with chips cannot be taken at these same places (even though chip cards also have a strip), and your implication that the magnetic strip is safer than the chip (when, in fact it is the other way around; nothing is totally secure but chips are much more so than strips, and chip and pin is better than chip and sign)

 

[Bonnie151]

Ditto to what Hadley just said. The OP title is accurate. Everything after that has just been nonsensical

 

[bcla]

Ditto to what Hadley just said. The OP title is accurate. Everything after that has just been nonsensical

Nothing is completely secure. However, the traditional magnetic strip system is a horrible way since unencrypted credit card numbers can be sampled with skimmers.

The weak link is typically that the merchant has the credit card number on file somewhere. That's apparently where the Target breach came from - that someone had gotten into their database.

What I'd like is a system where the merchant has no idea what your credit card number is, but where they're dealing with one-time "keys" for specific transactions. The key should never be repeated, can only be used for that specific transaction for a specific merchant, and would be useless to a database because they're only useful for that one transaction. Maybe there can be a key for things like deposits or holds, but then merchant can use that key to return the funds later.

I would hope for a future where there is no credit card number per se, but an account number and encoded information that's accessed securely. Right now someone could take a picture of the front/back of a credit card and have everything needed to make purchases or clone the card to a blank. And when they ask for a photo ID, if it's a DL with a zip code, that's enough to transfer the number to a card for pay at the pump gas stations.

 

[Unas]

Back to the topic I posted, which I stand by

Credit cards with chips aren't completely secure

And then you went on your OT walkabout with tons of misinformation

 

[tlens]

I'm way past Chip and Pin. I'm trying to figure out what the "Canadian Experience" is because apparently, I'm missing it.

I gather I'm to be discussing this experience in light of the Provincial election in Ontario so if someone can fill me in....

 

[declansdad]

I'm way past Chip and Pin. I'm trying to figure out what the "Canadian Experience" is because apparently, I'm missing it.

I gather I'm to be discussing this experience in light of the Provincial election in Ontario so if someone can fill me in....

Apparently it's something like this:

 

[tvguy]

And then you went on your OT walkabout with tons of misinformation

Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I hope everything I posted that I represented as a fact is correct, and that something that was posted as an opinion is no being confused as being represented as a fact by me.

But more importantly I am back. No issues with my magnetic strip credit card in Manchester, Leeds, Edinburgh, Chesterfield, or Liverpool. The machines merchants have can read both chips and can swipe magnetic strip cards. However, talking to merchants in Edinburgh, and Manchester, both said the machines are "rubbish" (their choice of words). The pub in Edinburgh where we had lunch had 2 scanners that they use only for magnetic strip cards because the chip readers didn't work on them anymore.
So, to close it out, my daughter did just fine for 10 months in England, France, Denmark and Germany with a magnetic stripe credit card and debit card. (Fact) Her classmate did have issues with her chip card, but I suspect the issue wasn't with the card, but the individual card readers (opinion).
And my daughter's study abroad program and Wells Fargo bank still recommend that Americans travel abroad do so with magnetic strip cards (fact).

 

[SueM in MN]

Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I hope everything I posted that I represented as a fact is correct, and that something that was posted as an opinion is no being confused as being represented as a fact by me.

But more importantly I am back. No issues with my magnetic strip credit card in Manchester, Leeds, Edinburgh, Chesterfield, or Liverpool. The machines merchants have can read both chips and can swipe magnetic strip cards. However, talking to merchants in Edinburgh, and Manchester, both said the machines are "rubbish" (their choice of words). The pub in Edinburgh where we had lunch had 2 scanners that they use only for magnetic strip cards because the chip readers didn't work on them anymore.
So, to close it out, my daughter did just fine for 10 months in England, France, Denmark and Germany with a magnetic stripe credit card and debit card. (Fact) Her classmate did have issues with her chip card, but I suspect the issue wasn't with the card, but the individual card readers (opinion).
And my daughter's study abroad program and Wells Fargo bank still recommend that Americans travel abroad do so with magnetic strip cards (fact).

Don't know why I started reading this thread, but the last time I traveled in Europe was 2 years ago and I remember being asked for a pin with every transaction. I'm sure our card then was only magnetic strip because even now most of our cards are that way. I wonder if the girl's issue is the type of credit card she has or if she is using a debit card rather than an actual credit card. Our debit card is Visa and can be used wherever Visa is accepted, but some places don't do Visa.
She also may not have a pin set (it's been an option with our cards), her pin is too many numbers or contains numbers and letters instead of the 4 digits that European systems expect for pins.
I don't see anywhere that Well Fargo recommends traveling abroad with a magnetic strip card and, in fact, their web pages recommend a card with chip -based technology.


Wells Fargo's website says
"Improve your chances of being able to pay with credit cards by finding out which credit card brands are more popular in your destination country. Also be aware that other places may have additional criteria around credit card acceptance. In Europe, for instance, some merchants and machines may only accept “smart cards” encrypted with a chip or personal identification number (PIN), which most U.S. card companies don’t offer yet. This could limit the ATMs you can use, so it may be wise to carry a small amount of cash on you. Also look into the currency exchange rate so you know what you’re paying in U.S. dollars."

https://www.wellsfargo.com/financial-education/credit-management/credit-cards-abroad

They also have a page about debit cards that says nothing about magnetic strips for overseas trips:
https://www.wellsfargo.com/debit-card/travel-tips

And, in fact, they have a page about their credit cards where they say:
"Need a form of payment with broader acceptance worldwide? The Wells Fargo credit card with chip-based technology is a must for frequent international travelers and can be used at stores, restaurants, gas stations — anywhere that accepts Visa®. The credit card is also equipped with Visa payWave technology that allows you to simply wave the card in front of a reader — just look for the payWave symbol wherever you shop.

Wells Fargo credit cards with chip-based technology will provide you with added security and convenience when you make purchases in the United States or internationally, where chip-based technology is the standard. Chip-based technology makes the credit card more difficult to counterfeit, and in the event your credit card is lost or stolen, you should promptly report the loss and feel reassured knowing your account is better protected."

https://www.wellsfargo.com/credit-cards/features/chip-card/index

 

[Domo]

Both have huge flaws.

Back when we used to have magnetic strips, I signed myself off as Richard Branson just for a laugh in a Virgin Megastore. No-one batted an eyelid.

Equally, a miscreant could take note of your chip and pin number by standing behind you in a que, then by lifting your card they have a short window of opportunity where they can go on a spending spree.

 

[njmom47]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-...-ever-credit-card-fraud-in-us-history/4844814

Or maybe your cc # was one of the 160 million that a Russian guy hacked and sold. This article is a year old but I'm wondering how many people really are aware that the card doesn't have to physically be present to have your # compromised.

A quote from another article:
"The total of the 20 fraudulent transactions was $4,860.21, court documents show; some of the credit card accounts belonged to individuals in Connecticut, California, and as far away as Denmark and Germany, police said.

After speaking with a U.S. Secret Service agent, Lansdale police learned that the credit card account numbers were stolen by computer hackers, likely in Russia, who had accessed the system of a Spokane, WA-based supermarket company — URM Stores, Inc. — and then sold the numbers “to factions all over the world, including (in) the United States,” court documents show.

Investigators said Monvil allegedly used credit cards that had his name printed on the front, but the magnetic strips on the back of the cards contained the stolen account information."

If they are serious criminals, they will have matching ID for the credit card they created so asking for additional ID is rather a moot point for these types of situations.

Entire article here:
http://www.thereporteronline.com/ge...ckers-for-fraudulent-transactions-in-lansdale

 

[tvguy]

Don't know why I started reading this thread, but the last time I traveled in Europe was 2 years ago and I remember being asked for a pin with every transaction. I'm sure our card then was only magnetic strip because even now most of our cards are that way. I wonder if the girl's issue is the type of credit card she has or if she is using a debit card rather than an actual credit card. Our debit card is Visa and can be used wherever Visa is accepted, but some places don't do Visa.
She also may not have a pin set (it's been an option with our cards), her pin is too many numbers or contains numbers and letters instead of the 4 digits that European systems expect for pins.
I don't see anywhere that Well Fargo recommends traveling abroad with a magnetic strip card and, in fact, their web pages recommend a card with chip -based technology.


Wells Fargo's website says
"Improve your chances of being able to pay with credit cards by finding out which credit card brands are more popular in your destination country. Also be aware that other places may have additional criteria around credit card acceptance. In Europe, for instance, some merchants and machines may only accept “smart cards” encrypted with a chip or personal identification number (PIN), which most U.S. card companies don’t offer yet. This could limit the ATMs you can use, so it may be wise to carry a small amount of cash on you. Also look into the currency exchange rate so you know what you’re paying in U.S. dollars."

https://www.wellsfargo.com/financial-education/credit-management/credit-cards-abroad

They also have a page about debit cards that says nothing about magnetic strips for overseas trips:
https://www.wellsfargo.com/debit-card/travel-tips

And, in fact, they have a page about their credit cards where they say:
"Need a form of payment with broader acceptance worldwide? The Wells Fargo credit card with chip-based technology is a must for frequent international travelers and can be used at stores, restaurants, gas stations — anywhere that accepts Visa®. The credit card is also equipped with Visa payWave technology that allows you to simply wave the card in front of a reader — just look for the payWave symbol wherever you shop.

Wells Fargo credit cards with chip-based technology will provide you with added security and convenience when you make purchases in the United States or internationally, where chip-based technology is the standard. Chip-based technology makes the credit card more difficult to counterfeit, and in the event your credit card is lost or stolen, you should promptly report the loss and feel reassured knowing your account is better protected."

https://www.wellsfargo.com/credit-cards/features/chip-card/index

My credit card purchases last week were all swipe and sign. I don't have a pin or a chip on my credit card.
My only debit card transactions were at ATMs and those of course asked for a pin.
My daughter's classmate only had issues over the past year with her chip credit card. But not everywhere. She did have a pin for it, and it was 4 digits since the European system isn't set up for more than 4 digit pins.

 

[bcla]

I've seen a lot of setups where the smart card reader slot is open but did nothing. I've generally been told it doesn't work. I have seen terminals at Trader Joe's where the slot is there, but blocked with an insert. There may or may not be any electronics underneath.

It certainly sounds as if a lot of the newer equipment is designed with these in mind.