Covid And The Rest of Us

[godisney14]

https://www.statnews.com/2020/08/24...tion-documented-in-hong-kong-researchers-say/

So...this is interesting.
First time around, the patient had mild symptoms, similar to a regular cold. Second time, he was asymptomatic.

It's just one documented case, so it's hard to make any conclusions.
What it sounds to me is that this is similar to when people get reinfected by non-Covid-19 coronaviruses. The T-cell recognizes the virus into recruiting B cells and production of antibodies. The innate immune response is not needed to ramp up and cause symptoms--unless you are immunocompromised.
This also probably means that the patient was likely highly infectious even in the second time around while asymptomatic.

ETA:
Apparently, the patient had no meaningful detectable levels of antibodies after some time after the first infection. This was widely known to be possible from all the studies so far from around the world that showed decreasing levels of antibodies for those with mild/no symptoms. But, this patient did develop antibodies after the re-infection.

What this observation points to is that herd immunity is not a viable approach. (Not that it ever was).

 

[BadPinkTink]

There is very little non essential travel from Europe and many other countries to USA due to travel bans. It really does not matter what the CDC say about 14 days quarantine right now, as the USA Government is not allowing tourists to enter, Also The USA Government has suspended many work visas for the rest of 2020, so there is very little movement into USA of foreign workers.

Really the only people travelling are Americans who have duel citizenship. People like me, who have the money to travel to USA and have the vacation time are not being allowed into USA.

 

[quandrea]

I'm unclear why testing couldn't replace 14 day quarantine for everyone. Here in Canada for example, where tests are easy to come by and fairly quickly processed, why not a test upon entry and and isolation under approved conditions until the results come back? Anyone who tests positive and is not a Canadian citizen would be removed from Canada where practical. Citizens would be required to go into full lock-down until they either tested clear or were asymptomatic for 5 days.

Because the test is only accurate in that moment. A person might go on to develop a high enough viral load to test positive at a later time in the fourteen day quarantine period.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

There is very little non essential travel from Europe and many other countries to USA due to travel bans. It really does not matter what the CDC say about 14 days quarantine right now, as the USA Government is not allowing tourists to enter, Also The USA Government has suspended many work visas for the rest of 2020, so there is very little movement into USA of foreign workers.

Really the only people travelling are Americans who have duel citizenship. People like me, who have the money to travel to USA and have the vacation time are not being allowed into USA.

It actually does matter what the CDC says..they are after all the organization we, as Americans, use for health-based information. Policies, recommendations and more are all made with the CDC in mind though that is a very simplistic overview.

Them removing a 14-day quarantine from their recommended/required is actually quite a big thing. In lieu of that quarantine they are placing the emphasis on mask wearing, basic hygiene, watching out for symptoms, telling people they are a risk to their community once they come back home due to exposure, etc.

The borders restrictions that you speak of are not the control of the CDC. They may make recommendations though and as such removing a 14-day quarantine may actually serve to increase international travel desirability--that is if someone could go they may choose to now that there isn't a 2 week commitment required/recommended when they get back home (assuming their state or place of business does not have such requirement). And there are more Americans traveling international than just dual citizens. It's just far fewer presently due to the virus and restrictions in place for various countries.

 

[okeydokey]

I will totally get the vaccine once available and think everyone should, but I see this causing controversy.

https://shoredailynews.com/headline...coronoavirus-vaccinations-for-all-virginians/

 

[BadPinkTink]

For those who may not be aware this is the USA Governments restrictions on tourists, last updated in March.


https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/travelers/from-other-countries.html
With specific exceptions, foreign nationals who have been in any of the following countries during the past 14 days may not enter the United States. For a full list of exceptions, please refer to the relevant proclamations in the links below.

1. China
2. Iran
3. European Schengen area (Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Monaco, San Marino, Vatican City)
4. United Kingdom (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland)
5. Republic of Ireland
6. Brazil

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presiden...persons-pose-risk-transmitting-coronavirus-2/
Proclamation on the Suspension of Entry as Immigrants and Nonimmigrants of Certain Additional Persons Who Pose a Risk of Transmitting Coronavirus

January 31, 2020 - China
February 29, 2020 - Islamic Republic of Iran
March 11, 2020 - Schengen Area
March 13, 2020 - United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland

Again bring this thread BACK to the topic of Covid outside USA, this is why the CDC quarantine guidelines are meaningless to tourists right now. The USA Government has suspended entry for tourists.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Again bring this thread BACK to the topic of Covid outside USA, this is why the CDC quarantine guidelines are meaningless to tourists right now. The USA Government has suspended entry for tourists.

You seem a bit peeved about travel restrictions..IDK it comes off that way

With respects to the CDC I don't look at them for non-U.S. tourists coming TO the U.S. but information about U.S. Citizens traveling within the U.S. and OUTSIDE the U.S. (international would also be our Federal government's website related to warnings and advisories and passport, etc requirements).

So while it may be meaningless to you because you are in Ireland, it's NOT meaningless for tourists. I would assume you look for your health organization in Ireland for tourism recommendation or requirements for when you travel outside of Ireland..do you not? Why would you look to the CDC for tourism requirements as an Irish citizen?

Two way different things going on here. Border restrictions at the country level and health recommendations from the U.S. health organization as it pertains to Americans.

 

[BadPinkTink]

Don't want to get into a back and forth argument and cause the thread to be closed, so I'll just quote the the OP from the first post

There are obviously a lot of Covid-related threads discussing many different aspects of the pandemic but I'd like to hear from non-American DIS'ers on how it's going where you are. It seems for most of us that our situations are very different in scope than what's going on in the US and our comments and perspectives are largely irrelevant in relation to them.

 

[littlejimmy]

Don't want to get into a back and forth argument and cause the thread to be closed, so I'll just quote the the OP from the first post

Darn. So now all threads need to stay on topic of the first post? You mean, threads arent allowed to go in crazy directions anymore? That is so unfair. That is not the dis that we all know and love.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Don't want to get into a back and forth argument and cause the thread to be closed, so I'll just quote the the OP from the first post

Um excuse me, I am relating it to global. A poster not from the U.S. mentioned the CDC requirement being removed. If you can't see the implication that can have on international travel for U.S. citizens traveling to other countries contributing to global economy and potentially spread both international and domestically with this recommendation for quarantining when you get home removed then I don't know what to tell you because I certainly can.

You can also quote me if you'd like to I do know you have done that in that past. If you have an issue with me personally and what I am personally saying I would highly suggest you PM instead of trying to push me out of the thread because I am in the U.S. And also from the creator of this thread: "I hope we haven't deterred any American DIS'ers from participating in the thread - that wasn't the intention." I completely understand the OP is trying to get experiences and information from the rest of the world. They aren't trying to exclude Americans from discussions however and I have respectfully attempted to keep most of the conversation centered less on the nitty gritty of what goes on in the U.S. in favor of learning and discussing what is going on elsewhere in the world when I comment due to the thread topic.

You're right though no need to go back and forth; discussion on this particular aspect doesn't need to continue as information has already been put out there.

 

[Heigh-Ho]

Wow this thread is amazing! So much information it's almost hard to wrap your head around how different parts of the world are doing things. And learning a bit about the everyday lives, and the tidbits here and there about politics without going to far. Whew. Thanks for everyone joining in. I appreciate the welcoming feeling most people have had in this thread towards the few who are from the u.s. We care too about the world

 

[bavaria]

You seem a bit peeved about travel restrictions..IDK it comes off that way

With respects to the CDC I don't look at them for non-U.S. tourists coming TO the U.S. but information about U.S. Citizens traveling within the U.S. and OUTSIDE the U.S. (international would also be our Federal government's website related to warnings and advisories and passport, etc requirements).

And there are many people travelling as we discussed re Canada. Business travel, medical travel, international students, reunification, dual citizens, return from abroad are just a few examples of travel to the US.

Flyertalk.com is full of Americans holidaying in the UK, Turkey, Croatia, Maldives and the several countries open to Americans.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

And there are many people travelling as we discussed re Canada. Business travel, medical travel, international students, reunification, dual citizens, return from abroad are just a few examples of travel to the US.

Flyertalk.com is full of Americans holidaying in the UK, Turkey, Croatia, Maldives and the several countries open to Americans.

Just last week my mother-in-law casually mentioned the daughter of one of the ladies she plays cards with is going to Scotland in October and a few other countries that she couldn't remember. My first comment was "well I hope she's looked into all the requirements (meaning quarantines upon arrival, testing, etc) and travel advisories"

 

[bavaria]

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...g-less-deadly-in-europe-but-we-dont-know-why/
I cannot speak to the source but it does discuss recent trends in Europe and elsewhere...

 

[bavaria]

Wow this thread is amazing! So much information it's almost hard to wrap your head around how different parts of the world are doing things. And learning a bit about the everyday lives, and the tidbits here and there about politics without going to far. Whew. Thanks for everyone joining in. I appreciate the welcoming feeling most people have had in this thread towards the few who are from the u.s. We care too about the world

It is almost the only thread I post now, but it is good to gain perspective that it is not all doomsday coming.

And many of my circle who travel for work have been told business as usual whenever they can....

 

[MommyinHonduras]

Anyone coming has to have a negative test 72 hours prior to boarding, but Roatan and the rest of Honduras are open for tourists. With a negative PCR no quarantine, with a negative antibody test, you have to stay within your resort area for quarantine for 14 days (or until you fly out). Our first flight landed this past Saturday. I know many who own homes here and been wanting to come to stay for awhile, but not sure how many are wanting to travel here to dive and such for a week or more. Time will tell.

 

[ronandannette]

So, apparently the US CDC no longer requires 14 day quarantine on return from outside the country... various news sources report this but I cannot find an English source I care to link. It's interesting that they just removed the requirement from their website without the usual fanfare we see in America regarding us 'dirty furriners' (Sorry, in the old DIS days we were considered such by a few posters... )

Question for any non-US poster: has anyone read about outbreaks linked to flights? I see reports of possible exposure on flights listed all the time, but no reports of linked outbreaks or cases, just that one traveller later tested positive. I've talked to airline employees and airport employees in my circle over the past few months, and outside the US none of them have heard of any fellow staff being impacted by positive travellers.

It's especially interesting to me as crew are often not required to quarantine in places with a quarantine requirement. In the time of SARS, there was an outbreak from one positive passenger which is the seat map we often see published, but we have not heard the same news from COVID-19 as far as I can tell. I know that people think that planes are bad, but the HEPA filters are supposedly very good and while the fear mongering was in the media, the lack of outbreaks on planes doesn't seem to be.

With each passing day we seem to be getting less and less specific information about the nature of the cases being diagnosed, mostly now just the "numbers". My cynical side is leaning towards thinking this is because if we were truly being informed about how few cases are actually being transmitted through random community contact, it would be harder to maintain the levels of concern that are required to compel compliance to restrictions. But if we do just look at the "big picture" of the numbers alone, continued high-levels of alert are also counter-intuitive. In my city for example, with 502 active cases amongst 1.4 million people, the odds of randomly contracting Covid from one of them is so, so small...

Because the test is only accurate in that moment. A person might go on to develop a high enough viral load to test positive at a later time in the fourteen day quarantine period.

True, but the same could be said for the value of testing anybody asymptomatically at all right? Basically looking for a needle in a haystack.

Don't want to get into a back and forth argument and cause the thread to be closed, so I'll just quote the the OP from the first post

OP here. From my earliest intention, everybody is welcome to participate in this thread. The BIG difference is that on this thread, American DIS'ers are commenting in context to what the rest of us are discussing, rather than the numerous other threads where our perspectives are sort of rendered irrelevant and ignored because they are so different and diluted by the sheer numbers of American posters, many of whom really have no interest in things that don't directly affect them.

 

[bavaria]

With each passing day we seem to be getting less and less specific information about the nature of the cases being diagnosed, mostly now just the "numbers". My cynical side is leaning towards thinking this is because if we were truly being informed about how few cases are actually being transmitted through random community contact, it would be harder to maintain the levels of concern that are required to compel compliance to restrictions. But if we do just look at the "big picture" of the numbers alone, continued high-levels of alert are also counter-intuitive. In my city for example, with 502 active cases amongst 1.4 million people, the odds of randomly contracting Covid from one of them is so, so small...

True, but the same could be said for the value of testing anybody asymptomatically at all right? Basically looking for a needle in a haystack.

There were several YYC flights impacted (I know because I had a flight to YYC booked for next week and was interested) And yet, where are the cases from all these flights that had an 'exposure' ie one person tested positive? It doesn't seem that one person is spreading it around the plane, like we saw with SARS. I'm curious why that doesn't seem to be addressed in the various media, just the warning of the exposure. Why is nobody asking for follow up? I realise that there are privacy concerns, but if flights were big areas of exposure, I think that we would hear about it. Instead, it seems like in countries with resurgence, it's mainly bars, pubs, nightclubs, private parties resulted in new cases.

OP here. From my earliest intention, everybody is welcome to participate in this thread. The BIG difference is that on this thread, American DIS'ers are commenting in context to what the rest of us are discussing, rather than the numerous other threads where our perspectives are sort of rendered irrelevant because they are so different and diluted by the sheer numbers of American posters, many of whom who really have no interest in things that don't directly affect them.

Yes, yes, yes. It's so frustrating to read almost anything online in English, and find Americans posting 'oh, I WISH we had 1450 new cases!' etc and derailing into a rant about how the US is handling it. At least this thread is a place we can have discussion and I appreciate the Americans who are posting here.

I raised the fact that the US quarantine on arrival from abroad seems to have been dropped. That is important because it was in the context of global quarantines, and the variance, and how those are impacting the ability to open up travel networks, especially between 'safe' countries.

We are now reaching another important timeline.
1) Many companies are reaching the end of government assistance, and over the last week and into September are making permanent decisions re eliminating positions. So far I know hundreds of 'white collar' people impacted in finance, legal, architecture, healthcare, and other areas one may not consider as being impacted.
2) Many people are ready to confirm/cancel their winter/holiday travel plans. Every winter Europeans (and Americans, and others) flock to ski resorts like Whistler or Mont-Tremblant. Well, with the current situation, they cannot go unless something changes. So soon they need to book alternatives, whether that is Vail (for the Americans) or Ischgl or Verbier etc for the Europeans.

I agree with you that the message has changed to 'two more years'. In Germany, the salary replacement scheme was extended for two years. TWO YEARS.

 

[bavaria]

Somewhat answering my own question re flights!

- 102 passengers fly TLV - FRA 4h40min flight, on 9th March (before masks and any form of extra precautions)
- a tour group of 24 had contact with a person 7 days before the flight, who had later tested positive
- all 24 were tested on landing at FRA; 7 tested positive; 4 had symptoms on the plane; 2 developed symptoms later; 1 never had symptoms
- 71 of the remaining 78 passengers agreed to testing
- 2 tested positive; 1 had no symptoms, 1 had symptoms 5 days after the flight and subsequently tested positive
- it is not clear if the 2 who tested positive in the days after the flight caught it on the flight, or elsewhere (remember, this was a time of no quarantine, no restrictions in Germany)

So, from an entire plane load, with 7 positive people on board, there were only 2 'maybe' transmissions. (And apologies, but I've flown that flight many times, and it is a very 'active' and 'energetic' flight with a lot of passengers moving about the plane, socialising, and having a good time, so I doubt that there was much if any social distancing)

"I think it is remarkable that with seven index cases, only two possible cases of COVID-19 transmission occurred on a flight of a duration for over four hours with no mitigation measures in place," said Adalja. He's a senior scholar at Johns Hopkins University's Center for Health Security, in Baltimore.

Ciesek's group agreed, noting that ceiling-to-floor cabin airflow may have helped prevent widespread infection onboard, and "it could be speculated that the rate may have been reduced further had the passengers worn masks."

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/202...plane-one-flights-history-outlines-the-risk#2
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coron...-may-be-transmitted-onboard-flights-1.5069587

 

[elphaba91]

We'll have to disagree.

I do know that many/most people in Australia and NZ share your viewpoint. Do you think that it is because you are physically isolated anyways that there is more support for your countries' actions? If most people are used to being far, far away and don't feel the need to leave the country, I can understand a bit more why this forced isolation isn't that much different from the usual isolation due to geography.

I don't think that's the case at all. We Aussies LOVE to travel; we just think a 5 hour flight to Bali is short! I’ve travelled overseas 5 times in the last 6 years, with my international flights ranging from 11 hours to 16 hours. My sister had a big trip to the States (where her best friends live) and Europe planned. My aunt is a travel agent who normally does multiple trips a year. I have family in the UK and Uganda (with a baby arriving in both countries by the end of the year) who we can’t see. Not being able to travel overseas definitely isn’t a normal thing. At the moment I can’t go further than 5km from my house! That’s DEFINITELY not normal for us! I think that the majority of us just think that it is worth sacrificing our normal for the time being.