Court to Disneyland-Study Use Of Segways

[com_op_2000]

Check out this article:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...gways-by-park-visitors-20120718,0,57035.story

 

[SueM in MN]

Thanks.
I had just seen this article and was coming to post a link, but you bet me to it.

 

[aubriee]

Wow, since Disney can not ask for proof of a disability can you imagine all the people that would rent a Segway to get around the parks? To tell you the truth, I'd be tempted. I've done the Segway tour at Epcot twice and loved riding one, but we did have about an hour's instruction. I really wanted to buy one after I got home, but have no place to ride one. Can you imagine all the people that would rent them, having no idea how to ride one. Wow, talk about an accident waiting to happen. Imagine all the drunks trying zig zag through Epcot during Food & Wine Festival. There's no way Disney could make sure only the disabled, experienced riders used them. The would have to allow anyone with one in. Can you imagine all the inexperienced people trying to zip in and out of the crowds at the parks joy riding? Rental companies would make a fortune with them.

 

[fredkap]

The ADA portion of the decision should be read from page 7 on. http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2012/07/18/1055792.pdf
Disney was told that Segways could limit the speed of Segway users to that of a motorized wheelchair but that any "safety requirements must be based on actual risks and not on speculation, stereotypes, or generalizations about individuals with disabilities." The court used some strong language against Disney. The court stated "we are disappointed to see such a retrograde position taken by a company whose reputation is built on service to the public."

 

[Schmeck]

The would have to allow anyone with one in. Can you imagine all the inexperienced people trying to zip in and out of the crowds at the parks joy riding?

Of course anyone can use one - mobility devices have never been limited to those with disabilities. That's an entitlement assumption people make all the time on this board. If I want to use a Segway, a wheelchair, an ECV, crutches, etc, I can. Now, if there were special services offered to people using these devices, then proof would have to be given for the disability, as per Section 12182 of the ADA, or it would be illegal to give those services.

As there is no benefit to using these devices, there is no limit on who is allowed to use them.

 

[toddinboston]

i am a civil engineer and i design alot of public facilities for handicapped accessibility such as sidewalks, ramps, building access, etc so i am truly sympathetic to those who are disabled...but here's my problem with the disneyland ruling...disney resorts are probably the most handicapped accessible resorts on the earth, literally everything is accessible...but some people still demand MORE...just being accessible isnt enough, they want accessibility on THEIR TERMS...they "need" their segways...and if they can't have them inside of a CROWDED park with little kids zipping around, then they're going to sue...sorry, but i think its a bad idea. the parks are just too crowded to accomodate a motorized machine that can go 12+ mph...

and when some child gets run over by one, guess who gets sued?...Disney...can't win...

 

[aubriee]

Of course anyone can use one - mobility devices have never been limited to those with disabilities. That's an entitlement assumption people make all the time on this board. If I want to use a Segway, a wheelchair, an ECV, crutches, etc, I can. Now, if there were special services offered to people using these devices, then proof would have to be given for the disability, as per Section 12182 of the ADA, or it would be illegal to give those services.

As there is no benefit to using these devices, there is no limit on who is allowed to use them.

That is exactly my point. Someone who needs to use one at home would obviously have their own and know how to use it safely. My problem would not be with those people. My problem would be that there would be no way to restrict Segway use just to those people that know how to drive one. If they get approved to be used at WDW, you know rental companies will jump on the bandwagon and anyone over the age of 16 y/o will be able to rent one. The majority of those people will have absolutely no idea how to ride one and alot will use them as just toys to see what they can do, showing out on them, injuring someone in the process. My eldest GD will turn 16 y/o in Sept. She's a good kid, but there is no way she could handle a Segway all day moving in and out of crowds. However, if they can be rented you can bet she'd want to try one for a day. For that matter, alot of people will rent one having no idea how tiring they can be to ride. The first Segway tour I did at Epcot, had an elderly couple in the group. She had alot of trouble during the training phase and instructors almost didn't let her go out. Her husband kept insisting she'd be OK though, When we got over to China, we had to duck under branch to go down the path. She panicked, actually let go of the Segway and dove off, letting the Segway fall. The CM was not happy with her, but she got back on and continued. By the time we got halfway around WS she was exhausted. We all took a break in Italy as a scheduled part of the tour. The rest of us stayed on the Segways and just had free time riding around, but she had to get off and rest. We then had to stop to allow her to rest again in Morrocco and then again in the UK. We didn't think she was going to make it around WS and back to FW. We were there very early before WS opened for the public. If it had been crowded there is no way that poor woman could have not hit someone. She was almost crying with pain in her legs and you could tell was not thinking clearly by the time we got back. Imagine if it had been during the F&W festival and a bunch of drunks who had never ridden one rented Segways to get around WS. It's an accident waiting to happen. If Segways are ever allowed in Disney parks then Disney should be allowed to make sure that the person on them knows what they're doing. However, because of the ADA laws they can't. They have to allow anyone who wants one in, whether that person knows how to ride one or not. The only time they'll be able to stop someone is after a CM saw that person doing something dangerous at which time it'd be too late for the person or persons that guest injured.

 

[aubriee]

oops, duplicate

 

[fredkap]

There are 54 million disabled Americans, it is an open enrollment group yet it is hard for everyone to get along with one another.

The San Diego Zoo, Walmart, Target and many other high traffic public accomodations have pemitted Segways by thse with qualified disabilities. Among the disabiled using Segways are amputees, those with MS, spinal cord injuries to name just a few. The amputees have it best as they only have to wear shorts and the geneal public understands. The ones that have the most difficulties are the young and healthy looking individuals for which a Segway makes their disability become invisible. The safety of a Segway used by a qualfied user that goes pedestrian speed does not seem to be a problem with this group, rather it is those that have used one at EPCOT and are worried that every 16 year old will want to sneak in and hot dog with one. How many will want to rent one if they cannot go faster than 3 mph? How difficult would it be for Disney to show extra scrutiny to anyone arriving that doesn't have a copy of their state issued disability placard? How many people will arrive per week desiring to use a Segway?

I firmly believe that those on this site care about all persons with disabilities. Many of you know that I am with an organization called Segs4Vets that has donated over 1,000 Segways to severely injured returning servicemen from Iraq and Afghanistan. Some of our recipients have lost their pelvic bone and find it excruciatingly painful to sit. Does that mean that they shouldn't enjoy Disney with their 5 year old child? I urge all of you that haven't to read the court's opinion from page 7 on, it is well written and quite eloquent.

Many of the arguments made by those that feel that Segways should be banned could easily have been made towards ECVs and similar arguments were made to ban motorized wheelchairs 30 years ago.

My goal in writing here is not to start a flame war, rather it is to be recognized that we are your friends not enemies.

Thank you.

 

[aubriee]

The ones that have the most difficulties are the young and healthy looking individuals for which a Segway makes their disability become invisible. The safety of a Segway used by a qualfied user that goes pedestrian speed does not seem to be a problem with this group, rather it is those that have used one at EPCOT and are worried that every 16 year old will want to sneak in and hot dog with one. How many will want to rent one if they cannot go faster than 3 mph? How difficult would it be for Disney to show extra scrutiny to anyone arriving that doesn't have a copy of their state issued disability placard? How many people will arrive per week desiring to use a Segway?


My goal in writing here is not to start a flame war, rather it is to be recognized that we are your friends not enemies.

Thank you.

That's just it, Disney can not let just the disabled use them. They are not allowed to question why a Segway might be needed. Anyone that wants one would have to be allowed in with one, including people that have no idea how to drive one. Disney would not be allowed to require someone to show a state issued disability placard.

I have ridden a Segway twice and yes they are fun to ride. I am one that would definitely have no problem renting one for the parks, both for fun and to keep from walking. If I take my 16 y/o GD down there, I would love to have the opportunity to spoil her for the week, by letting her use a Segway to get around the parks everyday (though I do wonder how they would transport/secure them on the Disney buses). You say how many would want to use a Segway if it didn't go over three miles/hour. They are still fun to ride, no matter how fast they go, plus if they are suddenly allowed in WDW, you know rental companies are going to jump on the band wagon. Whose to say how fast theirs will go and Disney will have no way of knowing until they see someone in the park going faster. If people are telling the rental companies they will go with the company that has the fastest Segway, then that company will compete, by making sure they have the faster Segways, no matter what WDW rules may say about speed limits. Disney may be able to limit the speeds any Segway they rent can go, but they have no way of regulating the speeds of someone's personal Segway or those that might be rented from another vender and they would not be allowed to limit the Segways coming into WDW to just those they rent. They would have to let them all in.

If there was a way Disney could restrict them strictly to the disabled that truly need them, it'd be fine. As I said previously those people would know what they were doing and would probably be using them safely. But if they open the door for those people, then they must let everyone else use one too, including the drunks that are always there during F&W Festival that I mentioned earlier. I'll be down there Sept 1st-8th with my elderly mom, who will be using an ECV. I would love to have a Segway so I could stay in the parks from opening to closing to keep up with her, without my feet hurting at night. If they let in the handicapped person who needs the Segway, they would also have to let me in with one, because again according to the ADA, they are not allowed to ask for proof of need (just like anyone can rent an ECV). An ECV is easier to drive than a Segway though so not quite as dangerous to other guests.

 

[bookwormde]

It has been the standard that accommodations can offer but not mandate a single accessibility methodology. On the other side individuals with disabilities cannot "on demand" request modifications that are not self implementable or readily implementable without prior preparation and as always most not create a safety hazard.

What different people "need" is variable based on their disability and how if impacts there ability to access equal accommodations (amusement parks and all their public components are considered "accommodations" under title 3 of ADA). If a person's closest methodology for as close to an equal experience is a standing mobility device, as long as it is safe and does not significantly modify the experience for other guest then it must be allowed.

Disney should have known this and should have begun defining if and under what circumstances this accommodation can be done safely and what is needed to support it instead of fighting it in court.

If the device can be speed regulated then it poses a comparable hazard to eclectic scooters (not that they are hazard free). There could be a requirement that the individual demonstrate safe use before they are tagged for park use. Disney is also going to face adapting not only the parks but also the transportation system under ADA title 2 for this mobility device

The "entitlement" argument is invalid in this case since it is presumed that Disney would not be supplying the mobility device for free. This section is constantly interpreted to only cover issues when costs are involved which provide preferential experience which has significant cost the the commercial venture.

Disney does provide accommodation to individuals with disabilities better than almost any other large commercial entity, but there are still gaps in their understanding and implementation of ADA 2009

i am a civil engineer and i design alot of public facilities for handicapped accessibility such as sidewalks, ramps, building access, etc so i am truly sympathetic to those who are disabled...but here's my problem with the disneyland ruling...disney resorts are probably the most handicapped accessible resorts on the earth, literally everything is accessible...but some people still demand MORE...just being accessible isnt enough, they want accessibility on THEIR TERMS...they "need" their segways...and if they can't have them inside of a CROWDED park with little kids zipping around, then they're going to sue...sorry, but i think its a bad idea. the parks are just too crowded to accomodate a motorized machine that can go 12+ mph...

and when some child gets run over by one, guess who gets sued?...Disney...can't win...

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

It has been the standard that accommodations can offer but not mandate a single accessibility methodology. On the other side individuals with disabilities cannot "on demand" request modifications that are not self implementable or readily implementable without prior preparation and as always most not create a safety hazard.

What different people "need" is variable based on their disability and how if impacts there ability to access equal accommodations (amusement parks and all their public components are considered "accommodations" under title 3 of ADA). If a person's closest methodology for as close to an equal experience is a standing mobility device, as long as it is safe and does not significantly modify the experience for other guest then it must be allowed.

Disney should have known this and should have begun defining if and under what circumstances this accommodation can be done safely and what is needed to support it instead of fighting it in court.

If the device can be speed regulated then it poses a comparable hazard to eclectic scooters (not that they are hazard free). There could be a requirement that the individual demonstrate safe use before they are tagged for park use. Disney is also going to face adapting not only the parks but also the transportation system under ADA title 2 for this mobility device

The "entitlement" argument is invalid in this case since it is presumed that Disney would not be supplying the mobility device for free. This section is constantly interpreted to only cover issues when costs are involved which provide preferential experience which has significant cost the the commercial venture.

Disney does provide accommodation to individuals with disabilities better than almost any other large commercial entity, but there are still gaps in their understanding and implementation of ADA 2009

Seems to me the easiest thing here to limit the number of segways is NOT rent any. That way the folks that need them can begin their own and use them in the park. These folks will know how to handle them properly and as safe as possible.

The people who don't really need them will not likely own one and they will not be any available to rent, to play with!


Nowhere in the article is the court saying Disney has to rent them, just make it possible for the disabled folks that need them be able to use them (their own) in the parks!

Seems a easy solution,to follow the ADA rules.


I personal think in a crowded park its likely to become a lawsuit heaven! This is not a bruised ankle from a wheelchair or ECV. Its people, including the disabled being knocked over. The lawsuits will involve Disney, the person hurt and/or sagway users.


AKK

 

[aubriee]

Seems to me the easiest thing here to limit the number of segways is NOT rent any. That way the folks that need them can begin their own and use them in the park. These folks will know how to handle them properly and as safe as possible.

The people who don't really need them will not likely own one and they will not be any available to rent, to play with!


Nowhere in the article is the court saying Disney has to rent them, just make it possible for the disabled folks that need them be able to use them (their own) in the parks!

Seems a easy solution,to follow the ADA rules.


I personal think in a crowded park its likely to become a lawsuit heaven! This is not a bruised ankle from a wheelchair or ECV. Its people, including the disabled being knocked over. The lawsuits will involve Disney, the person hurt and/or sagway users.


AKK

Disney may choose not to rent them, but you know that once they are allowed in the parks that the offsite rental places will jump on the bandwagon and rent them to anyone who wants one. Disney could not discriminate in who they allow to enter with one.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

Disney may choose not to rent them, but you know that once they are allowed in the parks that the offsite rental places will jump on the bandwagon and rent them to anyone who wants one. Disney could not discriminate in who they allow to enter with one.

You have a point there! It will still reduce the number of folks looking to play with it!

Disney can set a policy that it is still only permitted to be used in the park by those whose disability requires the use of one!

There will still be cheaters and no policy is perfect but it will help keep the numbers down. Also if someone brings one in the parks saying they have a disability and need it,then has a accident with it...their personal liability will go sky high!

AKK

 

[North of Mouse]

i am a civil engineer and i design alot of public facilities for handicapped accessibility such as sidewalks, ramps, building access, etc so i am truly sympathetic to those who are disabled...but here's my problem with the disneyland ruling...disney resorts are probably the most handicapped accessible resorts on the earth, literally everything is accessible...but some people still demand MORE...just being accessible isnt enough, they want accessibility on THEIR TERMS...they "need" their segways...and if they can't have them inside of a CROWDED park with little kids zipping around, then they're going to sue...sorry, but i think its a bad idea. the parks are just too crowded to accomodate a motorized machine that can go 12+ mph...

and when some child gets run over by one, guess who gets sued?...Disney...can't win...

Great post! My feelings exactly How in the world can anyone that is disabled enough to need assistance have the muscle and balance control to maneuver one of those? Our daughter took the Epcot tour and she's young and fit, but she said it flat took every muscle in her body to use and control the Segway. You have to be constantly on the alert and every muscle ready to respond. NO place for them in the parks because there are going to be some bad accidents and lawsuits.

 

[aubriee]

You have a point there! It will still reduce the number of folks looking to play with it!

Disney can set a policy that it is still only permitted to be used in the park by those whose disability requires the use of one!

There will still be cheaters and no policy is perfect but it will help keep the numbers down. Also if someone brings one in the parks saying they have a disability and need it,then has a accident with it...their personal liability will go sky high!

AKK

That's just it. Under the ADA Disney would not be able to limit their use to just people with disabilities. The ADA requires that equal access be given, not extra or superior access. If people with disabilities are allowed to use a Segway then Disney could not discriminate and say the able bodied could not use them too. If they have a right to use them, so do the able bodied. Besides Disney would not be allowed to ask what someone's disability is. If someone said they wanted in with one, all Disney could do is let them in. Remember a few years ago, when the offsite ECV companies were advertising for everyone to rent an ECV to conserve their energy, so they'd have energy to party at night at Pleasure Island. Even now you are always reading threads about people renting ECVs to make it easier for them in the parks. Alot of people call them cheaters, but actually they are not, because there is no laws saying that only the disabled can rent a wheelchair or ECV and theme parks are not allowed to determine who can use one and who can't. If you show up in a wheelchair or ECV they have to let you in, just like they would anyone who showed up with a Segway.

It may not be a popular stance, but I tell you now if they do decide they're going to be allowed, I'll be renting one from an offsite company. After a day of walking in the parks, my plantar fasciitis is killing my feet. I'd love to have a Segway to prevent that pain, plus the Segways are just plain fun to ride. However, personally I do not think they should be allowed. There are too many people who would rent one that has never been on one and would have no idea how to ride one safely. As I said before I have taken the Epcot tour twice. I was lucky that I picked it up quickly and never had a problem even the first time I rode one. The second tour I took, one of the tour guides laughed and asked if I had ridden one before, because I had no problem stepping up on it, balancing it, or immediately taking off driving it weaving in and out of cones with no trouble. However, others in both tours had a pretty rough time picking it up. Imagine if one of those people had just rented one for the parks and received no instruction and were just turned loose on unsuspecting tourists.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

That's just it. Under the ADA Disney would not be able to limit their use to just people with disabilities. The ADA requires that equal access be given, not extra or superior access. If people with disabilities are allowed to use a Segway then Disney could not discriminate and say the able bodied could not use them too. If they have a right to use them, so do the able bodied. Besides Disney would not be allowed to ask what someone's disability is. If someone said they wanted in with one, all Disney could do is let them in. Remember a few years ago, when the offsite ECV companies were advertising for everyone to rent an ECV to conserve their energy, so they'd have energy to party at night at Pleasure Island. Even now you are always reading threads about people renting ECVs to make it easier for them in the parks. Alot of people call them cheaters, but actually they are not, because there is no laws saying that only the disabled can rent a wheelchair or ECV and theme parks are not allowed to determine who can use one and who can't. If you show up in a wheelchair or ECV they have to let you in, just like they would anyone who showed up with a Segway.

It may not be a popular stance, but I tell you now if they do decide they're going to be allowed, I'll be renting one from an offsite company. After a day of walking in the parks, my plantar fasciitis is killing my feet. I'd love to have a Segway to prevent that pain, plus the Segways are just plain fun to ride. However, personally I do not think they should be allowed. There are too many people who would rent one that has never been on one and would have no idea how to ride one safely. As I said before I have taken the Epcot tour twice. I was lucky that I picked it up quickly and never had a problem even the first time I rode one. The second tour I took, one of the tour guides laughed and asked if I had ridden one before, because I had no problem stepping up on it, balancing it, or immediately taking off driving it weaving in and out of cones with no trouble. However, others in both tours had a pretty rough time picking it up. Imagine if one of those people had just rented one for the parks and received no instruction and were just turned loose on unsuspecting tourists.

Welll here is where the ADA needs to be changed to let the folks that need them use them.....not everyone.....


I am sorry your foot would be hurting....but if you go anf rent one and that small child you can't stop for it hit and your fall over and head hit the hard ground.is it still worth it to you ????


this is not a scooter hit your ankle?. This is standing person..... who when they run into someone or someone runs into them are likely to hit the ground hard and cause severe injuries!


That said.........I reread the ruling and the ruling in not say they have to find a way6......they have to prove that Disney's estimated of accident and injuries are correct. That should not be to hard to do...and hopefully they will stop segways and have only ESV....and not rent them only let the folks that need them bring their own!

AKK

 

[Kellykins1218]

Seeing people zipping around the Magic Kingdom is a scary thought. We saw a tour group using them in Washington DC and saw the same man wipe out 3 times over the course of a couple of hours. Luckily every time he crashed it was just him falling. Unfortunately, a woman in their group ran into a couple of people and it looked like they got hurt. DC was crowded but there was still room to manouver. The Magic Kingdom during Spring Break, during a parade or fireworks? Not so much.

 

[Schmeck]

You have a point there! It will still reduce the number of folks looking to play with it!

Disney can set a policy that it is still only permitted to be used in the park by those whose disability requires the use of one!

There will still be cheaters and no policy is perfect but it will help keep the numbers down. Also if someone brings one in the parks saying they have a disability and need it,then has a accident with it...their personal liability will go sky high!

AKK

First off, no, Disney cannot set a policy as you descirbe it - that's completely against ADA.

Also, there are no 'cheaters', as there is no standard set that says you have to be disabled to use a certain mobility device. ADA only states that access must be given to provide an equal access to an experience. As I stated before, you can tour WDW in a wheelchair if you want, or spend the whole week using crutches, etc. These devices are not limited to the disabled.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

First off, no, Disney cannot set a policy as you descirbe it - that's completely against ADA.

Also, there are no 'cheaters', as there is no standard set that says you have to be disabled to use a certain mobility device. ADA only states that access must be given to provide an equal access to an experience. As I stated before, you can tour WDW in a wheelchair if you want, or spend the whole week using crutches, etc. These devices are not limited to the disabled.

You missed the whole point!.....................The ADA needs to be changed so the people that need them can use them............NOT EVERYONE.......as this creates a safety issue, often because the people renting them and not needing them......likely don't know how to use them!

BTW.your wrong ..........Disney can restrict who they rent to and have for years.........one example is kids and teenagers,they cannot rent scooter.


I can only hope Disney proves their point that this is a major safety issue and its thrown out of court and the folks that need to stand and ride, can use ESV's.


Best check your facts!


AKK