Consistency versus the Carousel of Policy

[DawnCt1]

I don't have a problem with the word "guests" because paying customers to any WDW establishment should be treated as valued guests. The word "hosts" I have a bit of a problem with because I think that it implies that the "guests" are there at the pleasure of the hosts, when in actuality, WDW guests pay dearly for the "privileges" of staying at WDW and it is above all, a business relationship. If guests go by the golden rule of "do no harm" then all of the other rules that actually matter are taken care of. The last thing I want to think about when I go to WDW or anywhere is "What are the rules here". Any rule should be based on common sense and not something that someone needs to specifically acquaint themselves with prior to departure.

 

[bicker]

Sorry: Either it is hosts and guests, or suppliers and customers... you cannot have your cake and eat it too. And the fact that you feel as you do and I feel as I do means there is no such thing as "common" sense. Sense will vary for each person, based on their values and beliefs.

 

[RickinNYC]

We follow the rules, no question. But life is too short, and my vacation too valuable, to worry about what others are doing. Pool hopping to a deluxe while clutching Pop Century mug? It's the end of civilization as we know it.

 

[DawnCt1]

Sorry: Either it is hosts and guests, or suppliers and customers... you cannot have your cake and eat it too. And the fact that you feel as you do and I feel as I do means there is no such thing as "common" sense. Sense will vary for each person, based on their values and beliefs.

I disagree since the hosts are paid that puts them in the position of suppliers and also competitors for their guests discretionary income. It's not quite the same as a freshman college student checking into the dorm under the supervision of the university where there are absolute rules. While common sense varies from person to person, it falls within certain and acceptable parameters of behavior. I certainly wouldn't want to vacation in a resort that had such strict rules that I felt I was living in a dorm. That is not a vacation.

 

[Acklander]

I vote for fexibility - It's Disney, not the military. I LIKE the fact that CM's are allowed to create magic for guests, and if bending a rule for a guest makes the difference for them between a good vacation and not having a good vacation then I say go for it.

 

[bicker]

hosts are paid that puts them in the position of suppliers and also competitors for their guests discretionary income

Oh, I agree, but that also means that the "guests" are really just customers, who shouldn't expect anything more than what they paid for. Everything else -- all the generous hospitality -- needs to be appreciated as a bonus, or the argument against considering innkeepers as "hosts" falls apart. In the end, Disney is a show, and they call us guests because that is our role in the show. We should act like guests, deferential to the wishes of our hosts but expecting gracious and generous hospitality, because we buy-into the fiction they've created for us. If we don't buy-into that fiction, then we can just look at it as a customer-supplier relationship, without the expectations above-and-beyond, and still have a reasonable expectation for satisfaction. I do resonate with what you said about college dormitories -- I definitely prefer to buy-into the fiction rather than the reality.

With regard to common sense, I agree that there are certain and acceptable parameters of behavior. However, I think you're a reasonable person, and I know I am , so anything we disagree about is not a candidate for inclusion in "common" sense.

 

[DawnCt1]

Oh, I agree, but that also means that the "guests" are really just customers, who shouldn't expect anything more than what they paid for. Everything else -- all the generous hospitality -- needs to be appreciated as a bonus, or the argument against considering innkeepers as "hosts" falls apart. In the end, Disney is a show, and they call us guests because that is our role in the show. We should act like guests, deferential to the wishes of our hosts but expecting gracious and generous hospitality, because we buy-into the fiction they've created for us. If we don't buy-into that fiction, then we can just look at it as a customer-supplier relationship, without the expectations above-and-beyond, and still have a reasonable expectation for satisfaction. I do resonate with what you said about college dormitories -- I definitely prefer to buy-into the fiction rather than the reality.

I don't think that the guests need to buy into the fiction that Disney has created although it makes for a more enjoyable vacation. Do consider however that many, many guests go to WDW every year and never buy into the fantasy because they could be there for business purposes, to attend a conference or a convention. DH has been to two medical conventions at WDW and never visited the theme parks during that time but he still expected the amenities that one would expect of a hotel in that particular price range. Lately, what Disney considers "bonuses" has certainly diminished over time. There was a time when complimentary coffee was available in the lobby for all Yacht and Beach Club guests. That vanished. When I attended the "repeat visitors breakfast" to meet the managers, I brought that up and was told that surveys showed that guests would prefer to have coffee in their room. I made a point that one doesn't have to eliminate the other. They introduced coffee makers in the room and then charged for the coffee until they got complaints, and then they removed that altogether, replaced the coffee in the lobby for $1.75 a cup! What guests receive above and beyond what they pay for generates enormous good will for the hotel, and ultimately the company. I can still recall 23 years ago, DS 24's acute otitis media and the ride that the Polynesian security dept gave us to the walk in center ......and the ride back. That was above and beyond and that good will lasted 23 years. There are other examples of nickel and diming that leave a very bad impression. Penny wise and Pound foolish comes to mind.
I don't buy refillable mugs often but if I were to bring a mug for a refill in the assumption that I could, instead of the CM saying "you can't do that", how much better it would be to hear; "the policy has changed since you bought that mug so let me provide you with a new mug since the policy was in effect when you purchased your old mug and the new one will take care of this trip". The old mug is confiscated and the guest is taken care of on this trip and unable to sin no more because it has the bar code thingy. Or if a guest splits his stay between Pop Century and the GF, offer to exchange the mugs at the GF. Afterall, he could have stayed his entire vacation at Pop Century and spent a whole lot less money. I agree, we are both very reasonable so I am sure you will agree with my reasoning.

 

[rayelias]

Lately, what Disney considers "bonuses" has certainly diminished over time. There was a time when complimentary coffee was available in the lobby for all Yacht and Beach Club guests. That vanished. When I attended the "repeat visitors breakfast" to meet the managers, I brought that up and was told that surveys showed that guests would prefer to have coffee in their room. I made a point that one doesn't have to eliminate the other. They introduced coffee makers in the room and then charged for the coffee until they got complaints, and then they removed that altogether, replaced the coffee in the lobby for $1.75 a cup! What guests receive above and beyond what they pay for generates enormous good will for the hotel, and ultimately the company.

There are other examples of nickel and diming that leave a very bad impression. Penny wise and Pound foolish comes to mind.

With all due respect, the diminishing bonuses and "nickel & diming" are a direct result of those people who abuse the system.

WDW (and any business) includes this "Q" figure of costs in their operatig budgets for their guests/customers. When the cost of providing these extras exceed the budget because non-paying people (those breaking the "rules) take advantage of items or services they don't pay for and/or aren't entitled to, the options are to raise the cost to the people who ARE entitled to them or to eliminate them.

So, there is a definate cause-effect to the services and products provided to guests because of rule-breakers. And the ones who lose are those that follow the rules - they either have to pay more for the same services, or risk losing the services all together.

We may all be created equal, but we don't all end up that way. People pay more to stay at GF for a reason. People pay less to stay at ASMu for a reason. There's nothing wrong if you choose to stay at ASMu, but don't expect the same services and products as those who pay 3-5X as much. You pay more, you get more.

(And before I get flamed, I NEVER have stayed at any Deluxe - it's not in my budget. But, I realize that when I stay at Pop Century, I'm not going to get the same services, products, experience as those who have the means to stay at a Deluxe. When you go to McDonalds, don't expect Filet Mignon.)

As an example, what if EVERYONE decided to bring back their refillable mugs EVERYTIME they came back? In order to continue to provide the free refills, WDW would have to increase the cost of the mugs to make up for the additional losses. Eventually, it would become cost prohibitive for Disney to provide this service, because (1) the cost of the mugs would be so high that no one would buy new ones (2) the people who continue to reuse their mugs from prior trips would not be providing any drink income to offset the costs. So, the people who follow the rules lose.

And, I truly have no problem with people who are inadvertent "rule breakers." Honest mistakes are perfectly fine with me. I do, however, have problems with people who purposefully abuse the system and knowingly break the rules to suit themselves.

 

[DawnCt1]

With all due respect, the diminishing bonuses and "nickel & diming" are a direct result of those people who abuse the system.

WDW (and any business) includes this "Q" figure of costs in their operatig budgets for their guests/customers. When the cost of providing these extras exceed the budget because non-paying people (those breaking the "rules) take advantage of items or services they don't pay for and/or aren't entitled to, the options are to raise the cost to the people who ARE entitled to them or to eliminate them.

So, there is a definate cause-effect to the services and products provided to guests because of rule-breakers..

Not necessarily. If one considers that all hotels anywhere suffer "rule breakers". As long as the public is served, there will be rule breakers, yet Embassy Suites provides a hot daily breakfast and buffet for guests, yet it would not surprise me if there were interlopers who appeared in the lobby for breakfast or afternoon snacks. Day's Inn type hotels provide free coffee in the lobby, yet if they were in the right location, what is to stop a non guest from grabbing a cup. The rule breakers and the cost of coffee are all factored in. With every extra guest in a room, is perhaps a family that wouldn't have ever gone to WDW in the first place, or stayed as long and spent so much money on other things. In a sense, its a zero sum game. I am of the opinion that the nickel and diming has occurred because it can. WDW guests are a captive audience who are willing to spend the $$$ for the coffee so they do. WDW can charge for it so they do. I don't have a problem with companies making money, I believe in capitalism. I also believe the consumer has a duty to himself to preserve his own capital so it becomes a game of what discounts can I snag and where. There will always be a tug of war. When WDW had a paper ticket system there were so many loopholes during the 80's that I am still enjoying them today. I can recall being on the Grand Plan and the World Vacation, making a daily visit to guest services in the morning and securing tickets for every water park and Pleasure Island, whether or not I was going. Now with the universal ticket, one appears and gains access so paper tickets can't be accummulated. My paper tickets are still good 20 years later and the CM's marvel when they see the low price.

 

[eclectics]

And, I truly have no problem with people who are inadvertent "rule breakers." Honest mistakes are perfectly fine with me. I do, however, have problems with people who purposefully abuse the system and knowingly break the rules to suit themselves.

That's the only problem I have with Disney's customer service flexibility. CM's are taught to look the other way unless the misconduct is blatant and affects the other guests. While it doesn't ruin my vacation experience, and I don't dwell on it, the "rule breakers" do annoy me as does the CM's looking the other way. I like things cut and dry so I voted consistency. I do realize that exceptions have to be made sometimes but in certain instances Disney's wishy washy vaugeness seems to open the flood gates, as it were, for people to ignore the rules. Pool hopping springs to mind. I don't want to dig up that old bone, but when I stay at the Poly and can't find a chaise lounge because they are filled with value resort guests, I get a little ticked off.

 

[grimley1968]

I voted for consistency over the Carousel of Policy. There's no way for a Carousel of Policy to be fair, but consistency is the fairest possible way to treat guests. It may not be 100% fair, but it's the best and simplest way yet devised to please the most possible people.

The Carousel of Policy theme song:

"There's a great big, beautiful freebie
Shining at the end of every CM/guest dispute
There's a great big, beautiful freebie
And the freebie is just a whine away"



Sorry, couldn't help it.

 

[DawnCt1]

I voted for consistency over the Carousel of Policy. There's no way for a Carousel of Policy to be fair, but consistency is the fairest possible way to treat guests. It may not be 100% fair, but it's the best and simplest way yet devised to please the most possible people.

The Carousel of Policy theme song:

"There's a great big, beautiful freebie
Shining at the end of every CM/guest dispute
There's a great big, beautiful freebie
And the freebie is just a whine away"



Sorry, couldn't help it.

But then, what is an "appropriate whine"? How about checking into your room at the Yacht Club. Its not busy. There aren't that many guests in the lobby milling about and not that many people checking in. You are anxious to get your luggage so you can change and 45 minutes later, you are still waiting. While in your room, you check the bathroom. The bathroom hasn't been cleaned. It isn't a 'value' judgement of whether its up to a certain standard or not, it is dirty. There are towels on the floor, a ring around the tub, etc. So I call the front desk. The front desk manager says she is coming up to the room, you wait for her. She then says, I will move you to another room. Mind you, the luggage has yet to arrive. You like the room, you just want housekeeping to come and clean it. One hour and 15 minutes later you are ready to head to the parks. Time is money at WDW. How much time did you waste? How much is that worth to you? It was worth breakfast for 5 of us to me.

 

[ead79]

I think that Disney should enforce their rules uniformly. I dislike the very notion that some people have when they think the rules are for everyone but them. However, I’m not responsible for what other people do. I just choose to follow the rules myself and try to ignore those who don’t.

That being said, I completely agree with the posters who said that we all suffer when people break the rules. As the number of rule breakers (for example, those who re-use refillable mugs) increases, we either pay a higher price or have the benefit taken away. While some degree of loss is figured into Disney’s cost of doing business, if the number of abusers increases, they are forced into action.

 

[melomouse]

Very interesting!!! Dawn - you are always so well-written & intelligent in your posts....

Sense will vary for each person, based on their values and beliefs

This is exactly the problem, no matter which way WDW chooses to go with the Carousel or consistency.Mileage may vary!! Thus a stronger need for clarity in the policies??

In the end, Disney is a show, and they call us guests because that is our role in the show. We should act like guests, deferential to the wishes of our hosts but expecting gracious and generous hospitality, because we buy-into the fiction they've created for us. If we don't buy-into that fiction, then we can just look at it as a customer-supplier relationship, without the expectations above-and-beyond, and still have a reasonable expectation for satisfaction. I do resonate with what you said about college dormitories -- I definitely prefer to buy-into the fiction rather than the reality.

And, in the end, bicker,so do most guests. Once cast in their roles, it lets loose all sorts of values and beliefs that cause people to treat Disney as the benevolent parent.

Sometimes I think reports of all the rule-bending, system-exploiting, over-the-top policy interpretations makes some of us look like rebellious teens trying to "get over" on the host-parent.

When we grow up, we follow the rules, or seek clarity for parts which are unclear to us. I suspect that some Disney guests are possibly over-buying into the fantasy and acting out unfinished rebellious stages.

When you market fantasy, you risk reaching that population which is not of an entirely rule-abiding mentality.ANY rule will be tested by some portion of the guests. This is true more so at Disney than anywhere else, perhaps.

 

[NeverlandClub23]

I don't need to know the reason...if it's a rule on private property especially, I try to follow it.

I voted for consistency. I have noticed many people (not just at Disney) who feel like they need to know the exact reason for that rule so that they can determine whether or not it's a good reason and if they want to follow the rule. It's because of "exceptions" that many rules are not followed.

If I am told not to do it, I don't do it. We have never pool hopped, reused our mugs, stayed 5 or more to a room that didn't allow it, swam at the beach, stopped in the middle of a row, used flash photography in a show, cut in line, my parents paid adult price for me and my brother as soon as we were old enough to be considered adults for tickets or meals, taken towels from the room to keep, and I'm sure many more.

You can have a great vacation and follow the rules. I think relating it to going to vacation in prison is a little ridiculous. Everywhere there is rules. I go to the bank once a week and always take my ID. I don't care if they know me or not. It's a rule. Every week there is someone yelling at a teller that so-n-so knows them and they've been coming their once a week for 20 years and it's "good customer service" to know your customer so they shouldn't have to bring their ID. I don't understand why it is so difficult to do just do as you're told.

Some people that break these rules might say "good for you, I'm going to keep doing it because it works for me and no one's told me not to(or someone told me I could even though it's written that I'm not allowed i.e. refillable mugs)/I've never been caught/I'm not hurting anyone".

No one has to tell you, that's why they're written.
That's a good thing to teach your children. Just keep doing it because it's not wrong unless you're caught doing it.
Everything affects someone else. Everything.

I agree with what another poster said that some people only want consistency when it comes to something they don't agree with or doesn't affect them. Consistency should be across the board.

 

[grimley1968]

But then, what is an "appropriate whine"? How about checking into your room at the Yacht Club. Its not busy. There aren't that many guests in the lobby milling about and not that many people checking in. You are anxious to get your luggage so you can change and 45 minutes later, you are still waiting. While in your room, you check the bathroom. The bathroom hasn't been cleaned. It isn't a 'value' judgement of whether its up to a certain standard or not, it is dirty. There are towels on the floor, a ring around the tub, etc. So I call the front desk. The front desk manager says she is coming up to the room, you wait for her. She then says, I will move you to another room. Mind you, the luggage has yet to arrive. You like the room, you just want housekeeping to come and clean it. One hour and 15 minutes later you are ready to head to the parks. Time is money at WDW. How much time did you waste? How much is that worth to you? It was worth breakfast for 5 of us to me.

The example you cite doesn't list a rule that a guest is trying to break. It's entirely a legitimate gripe a guest (I'd be griping about it) would have under such circumstances where the resort is not living up to promised expectations, at an expensive resort.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but this thread is about guests abiding by consistent rules or being treated to the "Carousel of Policy" where guests demand, and sometimes receive, unreasonable exceptions to rules. Your example, to me, simply demonstrates a severe lack of service on the part of the resort, not an example of a guest trying to get away with something. I have asked for and gotten credit's for a night's stay for things like the A/C being out in our room on a very hot night in September at the Poly, for instance. I never thought of that as a freebie. I paid a lot of $$$ for that room, and working A/C was part of the deal. When it didn't work, I asked for the $$$ back, and they granted it without much hassle.

Also, keep in mind that my little song is purely a joke. It was not a personal attack against anyone in particular. It's just my feeble attempt at humor.

Okay, on a lighter note, I have another verse to my Carousel of Policy song:

"Man has a whine, and that's a start
He pushes the whine with 'Mine' and heart
And when it becomes a real freebie
It's an extra cost, for you and me!"

 

[taximomfor4]

If I am told not to do it, I don't do it. We have never pool hopped, reused our mugs, stayed 5 or more to a room that didn't allow it, swam at the beach, stopped in the middle of a row, used flash photography in a show, cut in line, my parents paid adult price for me and my brother as soon as we were old enough to be considered adults for tickets or meals, taken towels from the room to keep, and I'm sure many more.

EEEK! We came home from WL last year with a washcloth. We didn't bring any from home, so it must have belonged to the WL...and silly enough, I was going to mail it back until I decided we can just bring it back when we go to WDW next. TOLD YOU I have broken rules, and am not proclaiming to be perfect!

 

[DawnCt1]

I think that Disney should enforce their rules uniformly. I dislike the very notion that some people have when they think the rules are for everyone but them. However, I’m not responsible for what other people do. I just choose to follow the rules myself and try to ignore those who don’t.

That being said, I completely agree with the posters who said that we all suffer when people break the rules. As the number of rule breakers (for example, those who re-use refillable mugs) increases, we either pay a higher price or have the benefit taken away. While some degree of loss is figured into Disney’s cost of doing business, if the number of abusers increases, they are forced into action.

I think that Disney should enforce the rules uniformly that deal with "quality of life" issues. Certainly no smoking in line, on attractions, in restaurants. No cutting ahead of others in line, no moving to the front of the curb when you arrive late for the parade, No loud chanting through attractions just because you are with a large group of jerks and you want to be one too. No pool hopping, that does affect others. But refillable mugs? That is just a silly hill to die on. Sooner or later, those mugs without bar codes will disappear and for what amounts to $20 worth of soda, wouldn't Disney be giving up thousands of dollars in other revenue? The mugs are NOT a benefit. They are another piece of merchandise that reaps big bucks for the company. The price will increase because "it can". As long as people will buy them, they will sell them for yet higher prices.

 

[DawnCt1]

I
If I am told not to do it, I don't do it. We have never pool hopped, reused our mugs, stayed 5 or more to a room that didn't allow it, swam at the beach, stopped in the middle of a row, used flash photography in a show, cut in line, my parents paid adult price for me and my brother as soon as we were old enough to be considered adults for tickets or meals, taken towels from the room to keep, and I'm sure many more.

I have never pool hopped because I didn't pay for that particular pool. I can't be bothered worrying about my mug. I assume that the trip I bought it for was the one I was entitled to use it for UNLESS the terms and conditions were different when I bought it. I do have an issue with those guests who pay the same price for the mug at POP and then attempt to use it at the GF on the same vacation, they should be able to. Its the same vacation. I have also enjoyed the debates over the years about child AP holders that become adults prior to the next vacation. They are children until its time to renew. I wouldn't think to ask. It justs makes perfect sense to me. Child meals are not equal in quality or quantity, with the exception of the buffets, so I wouldn't hesitate to order a child meal for an 11 year old that didn't want to eat like an adult. When it was enforced, I have been very forthcoming with the server and said, "there is nothing on the adult menu that he wants". That should be enough of an explanation. With regard to one guest over the limit. I have done that on numerous occasions because I have learned over the years that it is a rule that receives a "wink and a nod" as long as one is an appropriately well behaved and quiet guest. It has essentially been said to me that they would rather have my $$$$ in Disney World than at home.

 

[DawnCt1]

I vote for fexibility - It's Disney, not the military. I LIKE the fact that CM's are allowed to create magic for guests, and if bending a rule for a guest makes the difference for them between a good vacation and not having a good vacation then I say go for it.

Funny you should mention "military" because we now stay at SoG when we go to WDW. That is "the military". One of the rules my BIL had an issue with is the rule of serving alcohol to minors. He allowed his DS to have beer while in the room. Since he was staying as our guests and we were clearly "the hosts", DH and I made it clear that was not a rule to break, particularly when his DS was more than willing to share with our DS.