Considering Renting from a DVC Member?

[JoanneNC]

Interesting perspectives on DVC rentals... I think the concept is great and when it works its definitely a win/win for both sides of the deal. I personally would never be comfortable with the trust that would need to go into it. I am renting a 2 bedroom at SSR in December through CRO and was fortunate to apply the military 40% off room code...... only way I can justify the expense...

 

[DVC Mike]

I am all for educating people but it should be more realistic and not potentially hurt people who intend to do it.

So let's not tell prospective renters the facts so they can protect themselves? I stand by the quote below, as it's just common sense.

Good references show that a DVC member has had successful rentals in the past, and is knowledgeable about the DVC program. You are more likely to have a miscommunication with a DVC member who is renting their points for the first time.

 

[crisi]

So now I have to rent cheaper because I have no references? I imagine that renting is a rare thing for most people. In 8 years I have never even considered it until now. If it wasn't for the fact that we want to do something different for our 20th we would not even do it now.

I am all for educating people but it should be more realistic and not potentially hurt people who intend to do it.

Rentals are a free market. In a free market, information flows freely and you have to be competitive. You can't be competitive on references, so you'll either have to take your chances that the person you rent to won't care about references, or find something else to be competitive on.

 

[JimMIA]

So next year when I need to rent out some points to pay for my 20th anniversary no one buy from me because it will be the first time I have done it and I will have no references.

Whenever anyone starts a thread like this, I always get frustrated by one fact of life. Everyone looks for a "Silver Bullet" that will protect them from harm. Problem is, there is none.

I only know personally of one person who stole money from DISers, and she had some good references and some successful rentals, including one that occurred during the same timeframe she was defrauding other people.

Several good references may indeed be the information a renter needs to take the leap. But the key is trust, and there are many roads to trust.

A person who has a good record renting on the DIS (and a number of our regulars do) certainly inspires my trust. But some people have never rented before, but have excellent reputations in other venues (eBay, for example). A solid record elsewhere, plus a good understanding of how DVC works, would also give me confidence.

The other point I keep coming back to is that fraud is seldom a problem...although it's what everyone worries about. It's very unlikely that you'll get scammed, but you can get screwed up by the most honest of people if they don't know what they are doing. (That holds true for both renters, and owners.)

The real problem most of the time is lack of understanding of DVC, and unclear understandings of the details of the rental transaction itself.

Everybody wants some magic formula for a successful rental, but I think the formula starts with both the renter and the owner clearly understanding their respective obligations in the transaction. If they don't, no number of references, or DIS posts, or anything else, is likely to fix their screw-ups.

 

[DVC Mike]

The real problem most of the time is lack of understanding of DVC, and unclear understandings of the details of the rental transaction itself.

Everybody wants some magic formula for a successful rental, but I think the formula starts with both the renter and the owner clearly understanding their respective obligations in the transaction. If they don't, no number of references, or DIS posts, or anything else, is likely to fix their screw-ups.

It is more likely than not that a DVC member who has never rented their points might not understand all the ins and outs of renting and the potential pitfalls to be avoided. A member who has successfully rented points and has a good track record of successful rentals has shown that they understand the problem areas and can avoid potential pitfalls.

 

[rowbear]

So let's not tell prospective renters the facts so they can protect themselves? I stand by the quote below, as it's just common sense.

How is it common sense to ask for references when it is very unlikely for the person renting them to have any? Most of us do not have a bazillion points like you so we have very little need to rent.

 

[rowbear]

Rentals are a free market. In a free market, information flows freely and you have to be competitive. You can't be competitive on references, so you'll either have to take your chances that the person you rent to won't care about references, or find something else to be competitive on.

That is correct. Since the majority of owners probably do not rent often or at all they get to lose money because someone read this thread and are asking for references. That is quite self-serving for the minority of owners who rent their points out regularly.

 

[fers31]

rowbear, I think you're taking this a bit too personally.

 

[rowbear]

rowbear, I think you're taking this a bit too personally.

Since I plan to rent points next year how is it not personal? How is taking money out of my pocket not personal?

 

[chalee94]

rowbear, I think you're taking this a bit too personally.

yes, rowbear, step back for a second and consider seriously whether you'd feel safer renting from someone with a history of renting, who understands the process and has references...then consider whether you'd pay a little more to avoid the risk of dealing with the uncertainty of an inexperienced DVC owner.

it's all about supply and demand. demand is higher for a lower risk transaction, so the price also tends to be higher. this education is helpful for you even if it's frustrating because it's about how the real world works...if you are trying to price your rental the same as more experienced DVC owners, you will likely have more trouble finding takers (certainly, you may also get lucky if overall demand is high enough that owner experience becomes less of an issue).

if it feels a little unfair...that's just life.

 

[rowbear]

yes, rowbear, step back for a second and consider seriously whether you'd feel safer renting from someone with a history of renting, who understands the process and has references...then consider whether you'd pay a little more to avoid the risk of dealing with the uncertainty of an inexperienced DVC owner.

How many owners have a history of renting? I think it would be odd for someone to have references. You don't expect that a person selling a car in the paper to have references for other transactions. I could register some additional accounts and give myself references. There is no real protection to be had so why isn't the playing field level?

 

[chalee94]

How many owners have a history of renting?

DVC has been around for 15 years. some owners have a lot of pts and can rent at least a time or 2 each year.

it's not that unusual, IMO, but to the extent that people generally would agree with you that there is no real protection and that the playing field is level, that will be reflected in the prices paid for rentals from experienced vs inexperienced owners. if you personally would pay the same for a rental from an experienced DVC owner as a newbie, then price your rental accordingly and hope for the best...

if you think the DIS puts a stigma on you as a newbie renter, then go to ebay (although they record your history of transactions there too...and people again are more likely to buy from those with lots of positive feedback rather than a 0 feedback...that's life.)

 

[crisi]

That is correct. Since the majority of owners probably do not rent often or at all they get to lose money because someone read this thread and are asking for references. That is quite self-serving for the minority of owners who rent their points out regularly.

Its also good advice - whether its self serving its also servicing the potential renter. I don't rent out my points, but I'd only rent points from someone I had trust with. Since I've spent a lot of time on these boards, there are some names I'd rent from without referenences - regardless of whether they rented before. Most people aren't going to recognize one DISer from the next. And so there has to be some avenue for establishing trust with some stranger on the internet.

As chalee points out, there are other avenues for renting points. Another option is to use a points broker. Or you can try and sell your points for more by marketing them better here. You can use another board. You can rent to friends.

The playing field for renting points is not level. If I want to rent my BWV points over Food and Wine that I bought ten years ago for $63 - I have pretty low costs compared to someone who has bought in the past two or three years from Disney - plus points in demand. And since I really wouldn't care (right now) about covering more than dues - I could rent my points for $6 or $8 if I wanted and still feel like I'm ahead. I'm betting few people would care about references for BWV points eleven months out at $6 per. (I am not interested in renting my points however). OKW owners paying low dues with a low purchase price might not even need that much to feel like they are doing ok. Not all owners are interested in maximizing price. Those that are need to be competitive with both those that just want to get rid of some extra points without a lot of hassle and those that are in this semi-professionally.

 

[rowbear]

DVC has been around for 15 years. some owners have a lot of pts and can rent at least a time or 2 each year.

it's not that unusual, IMO, but to the extent that people generally would agree with you that there is no real protection and that the playing field is level, that will be reflected in the prices paid for rentals from experienced vs inexperienced owners. if you personally would pay the same for a rental from an experienced DVC owner as a newbie, then price your rental accordingly and hope for the best...

if you think the DIS puts a stigma on you as a newbie renter, then go to ebay (although they record your history of transactions there too...and people again are more likely to buy from those with lots of positive feedback rather than a 0 feedback...that's life.)

The value is the same and there is no real protection. As someone pointed out earlier a case of fraud occured with a person who did have references. Educating a person to get references is only giving them a false sense of security so how does that help? Educating a person on how it works is one thing but there is no part of it that is not buyer beware. The risk exists regardless of precautions and that risk is never diminished unless the buyer has some recourse after the transaction.

Unlike Ebay there is no system to track transactions here so if I had 5 good rentals and 10 bad ones all I have to do is give references for the 5.

 

[crisi]

Nothing offers real protection to the renter. Its about managing risk, not getting rid of it. There are things that can be done to manage the renter's risk. One is getting references - it isn't foolproof. But none of the ways to manage risk are foolproof. However, taking some steps to manage risk are better than taking no steps.

And the value isn't the same - renting from someone who has rented before offers peace of mind - and that has some price.

 

[rowbear]

Nothing offers real protection to the renter. Its about managing risk, not getting rid of it. There are things that can be done to manage the renter's risk. One is getting references - it isn't foolproof. But none of the ways to manage risk are foolproof. However, taking some steps to manage risk are better than taking no steps.

And the value isn't the same - renting from someone who has rented before offers peace of mind - and that has some price.

So even though there seems to be a case of a person with references committing fraud you still think getting references manages risk? Without a real system to track... references are worthless.

Risk can only be managed by having a system of recourse. I'd rather have a copy of a driver's license than an unverified reference. At least then I could sue. Even better I would like pay for my rental with a credit card because then I could challenge the charges if something is hinky. If you want real protection for both parties you could use a reputable escrow service that holds the money until the reservation is verified.

That is how you educate people on how to manage risks.

 

[robinb]

And the value isn't the same - renting from someone who has rented before offers peace of mind - and that has some price.

I agree ... the VALUE is not the same between an experienced renter and a newbie renter. The transaction is likely to be smoother with an experienced renter. They understand the process and know what information is required for booking the room, arranging for the DDP and Magical Express without constant back and forth between Member Services and the person renting their points. Many experienced renters use a contract so both parties fully understand the agreement in advance of the exchange of any money. Lastly, they understand how the point system works and may be able to work with the renter if s/he has to reschedule or cancel. Some will book at the 11-month window and some will even waitlist a renter for a different resort.

I'm not staying that a newbie renter can't do all those things. They can and some do. However, I believe that the customer service that a person will get from an experienced renter will be better than from someone who is a one-shot renter who is just interested in the cash upfront (no refunds, no changes) and not interested in their customer's vacation.

Rowbear, you seem to be disappointed that you may not get top dollar for your upcoming rental. I guess you can try to rent out your points at a higher price. There is nothing stopping you from listing them at whatever price you think is fair. Good luck!

 

[crisi]

So even though there seems to be a case of a person with references committing fraud you still think getting references manages risk? Without a real system to track... references are worthless.

Risk can only be managed by having a system of recourse. I'd rather have a copy of a driver's license than an unverified reference. At least then I could sue. Even better I would like pay for my rental with a credit card because then I could challenge the charges if something is hinky. If you want real protection for both parties you could use a reputable escrow service that holds the money until the reservation is verified.

That is how you educate people on how to manage risks.

If you can accept a credit card, you'll have LOTS of takers on your rental and I doubt you need to provide references. Some people do use a escrow service. Its a good way to manage risk. But it has a cost associated with it - so a lot of owners and renters don't want the overhead. But you and the person you rent from get to agree to the terms.

 

[rowbear]

I agree ... the VALUE is not the same between an experienced renter and a newbie renter. The transaction is likely to be smoother with an experienced renter. They understand the process and know what information is required for booking the room, arranging for the DDP and Magical Express without constant back and forth between Member Services and the person renting their points. Many experienced renters use a contract so both parties fully understand the agreement in advance of the exchange of any money. Lastly, they understand how the point system works and may be able to work with the renter if s/he has to reschedule or cancel. Some will book at the 11-month window and some will even waitlist a renter for a different resort.

I'm not staying that a newbie renter can't do all those things. They can and some do. However, I believe that the customer service that a person will get from an experienced renter will be better than from someone who is a one-shot renter who is just interested in the cash upfront (no refunds, no changes) and not interested in their customer's vacation.

Rowbear, you seem to be disappointed that you may not get top dollar for your upcoming rental. I guess you can try to rent out your points at a higher price. There is nothing stopping you from listing them at whatever price you think is fair. Good luck!

Any experienced DVCer should be able to pull off a flawless rent regardless of prior experience. I have booked 22 different rooms in 8 years that is probably more than a few renters with references.

 

[rowbear]

If you can accept a credit card, you'll have LOTS of takers on your rental and I doubt you need to provide references. Some people do use a escrow service. Its a good way to manage risk. But it has a cost associated with it - so a lot of owners and renters don't want the overhead. But you and the person you rent from get to agree to the terms.

I do have that capability because I am a business owner and I can accept all major credit cards but it makes me nervous because then I open myself up for fraud.