Considering new tow vehicle, 2500HD vs Medium Duty 4500 ??

[PaHunter]

Considering a new tow vehicle, for our trailer and any upgrades in the future. Our current trailer is 7000lbs total weight. I know we could get by with a 2500HD, but should we get a 4500 in case we decide to upgrade to a 5th wheel later. Any and all input appreciated.

 

[tiggerdad]

Can't speak for the 2500 or 4500. I have been a Ford guy when it comes to the heavy haulers, and Toyota for my smaller drive around vehicle (bought her new in 1997 and still running like a champ).

I had (actually bought it 2 different times) a 2003 F-250 which was a 2WD. I had no problems with it other than some injector replacements last year but that was after 11 years. I pulled my 9500# 32BHDS with no problems, you could only tell it was behind you by looking in the mirrors or looking at the fuel gauge. I also pulled my BIL's 5th wheel Montana which was bigger than my 32BHDS and had no issues there either. I have just recently traded for a 2013 F250 because I wanted an upgraded truck with more "cab comforts" as we are planning to start going longer distances to camp.

Not trying to steer you towards Fords, just the experience I have with an equivocal 2500 in my F-250's. Have not owned or used a duel wheel, so not sure of the perks. Like I said, the F-250 pulled that big Montana up into the Smoky Mountains without difficulty.

 

[PaHunter]

Wife's preference is Chevy. I have owned fords, GMC. Her truck is a '03, and just starting to need things replaced, so looking for ideas.

 

[Teamubr]

I've always been a Ford guy too (raced Mustangs for 8 years), but Dodge and GMs trucks are all very close. Unless you plan on getting a 20,000+ lb 5er any of the 350/3500 dualys will do just fine. Ford was selling a lot of F450s a few years ago. The were a glorified F350 with a different rear axle and DOWN graded diesel. Yep, the 6.4 was de-tuned for F450 and up applications. They did have a tighter wheel cut (turning radius), but that was added to the newer 2011 and up F350 trucks. The 6.4 diesel was also terrible on fuel mileage. (I had a 08 F250). It was the first generation trying to meet the new diesel emission standards. The current 6.7 is fantastic.

Before the race team, I had F250 diesels for my 8,000 lb 5er. I have a 2011 F350 dually diesel crew cab long bed now (say that fast) that I have towed a 48 ft, 2 car enclosed race car hauler. With 2 Mustangs, 3 sets of tires, spares, 1000 lbs of tools, generator, air compressor, welder and spare engine and trans, It rolled across the scales just over 21,000 lbs. I've towed it from Utah to Atlanta with lots of tracks in between. It towed it incredibly well. I never thought I needed anything more.

Once you get to the 250/2500 level, the diesel engines and transmissions are essentially the same. After that, go with the level that gives you the tow capacity you want. Dual rear wheels will feel more stable for the same weight trailer, especially in winds. With the tow ratings on the current 350/3500s, I would go with one of those. If you think a new trailer would be over 9000 lbs, get the dually. And spend the extra $$ on the diesel.

j

 

[Teamubr]

In case you're curious, this is the "old" race hauler. We put 2 Mustangs in it. We also had a toy hauler 5er that we put a Miata in the back. That also provided living quarters for the team at the tracks. Since I retired from racing, the team doesn't have my truck any more to tow the hauler or the toy hauler. The team owner also bought a 2nd Miata for his kids to do HPDE (driving school) in. He needed something to carry 4 cars and "stuff" so he traded both haulers on the little item in the 2nd pic.

40 ft "Toter home" pulling a 40 ft stacker hauler. 2 Miatas and a Mustang in the top and another Mustang in the bottom behind the shop and storage.

You can see the rest of the fun at www.facebook.com/TeamUBR

j

 

[PaHunter]

We did ok on our trip down with the weight distribution system, but I am guessing that with a diesel that we would get a little better gas mileage. We got anywhere from 7mpg to 8.2mpg. Seemed a little low, but may have been all I could expect. That and the wear on the transmission and other parts would not be as bad. If you put it in Drive it wanted to go into OD then would almost instantly want to downshift the second you hit an incline. And forget cruise control, sounded like a 747 taking off when it downshifted.

 

[tiggerdad]

My 2003 F-250 2WD at 70-72 mph got between 11 and 12 mpg. It was not raised up or tweaked in any way. I have not had a chance to pull with my new truck yet, but hoping the 6.7L can get pretty close to that. My 32BHDS is bumper pull, and loaded is around 9500-10,000#. Truck had no problems. I pulled that same camper with my neighbors 2500HD ('09 model I think) and it got about 9-10 mpg, but with wider off road tires, but again, no tweaks to the engine. So it wasn't a big difference between the two, and the 2500 seemed to do just fine.

The ole 2003...

 

[bigdisneydaddy]

When I first bought my truck (2005) we had a 27ft 6000# trailer, then a 32 ft 8000# and now we have a 36ft 10,400 trailer. I knew at the time I bought the truck that a 2500HD diesel was more than I needed but I also knew that we were going to end up with bigger trailers in the future. I think you should look at where you might end up eventually, in the time frame you plan on keeping the truck for, then base you truck purchase on your ideal trailer.

 

[Teamubr]

I am guessing that with a diesel that we would get a little better gas mileage. We got anywhere from 7mpg to 8.2mpg. Seemed a little low,

That's one of the nice things about a diesel. Tons of torque and good (relative) mpg. I tow a lot of different things. Weight is a contributor, but height and wind are bigger issues. Here's a run down on what I have towed and the mileage I get.

First, I typically tow between 72-75 mph.

My current personal camper is a 30 ft 5er that weighs around 9,000 lbs and is just under 13 ft tall (12' 9"). With my old 2002 F250 2WD with the 7.3 diesel that was chipped, exhaust etc to make about 50% more power than stock, I got 10-11 mpg.
Same trailer with my 08 F250 2WD with the 6.4 diesel, I got 9'ish. (main reason I hated that truck)
New truck 2011 F350 dually 4WD (taller, wider, longer and weighs 2000 lbs more than the 02) I get 10-11mpg... Same as the 02.

With the 2011 towing the race hauler (20,000+ lbs, but 11 ft tall) I get about 9.5-10. Towing the 14,000 lb toy hauler that is 13' 6" tall I got 9.

Wind is the biggest issue with the toy hauler. We were racing outside of Denver and had to drive across Kansas with 20-25 mph winds. I got in the 7's the whole trip. The car hauler being towed by an identical truck on the same trip got low to mid 8's.

With the small frontal area of your camper, I would expect 11's, at least. And it will do it all day long. No drama, no shifting, just pulls like a beast.

FWIW, I have heard guys with the GM and Dodge trucks "claim" 15-16 towing and 18-20 in town. I always ask if they tow at 50 mph on the highway, but the truck forums have all kinds of stories about that kind of mileage. I've never seen any verifiable proof.

j

 

[PaHunter]

well of course we made this trip with a 1500. There was very little wind on this trip that I observed. Some wind in NC, but not terrible. Thanks for all the help and information. Wife was out looking at a 2500 the other day without me. Looks like we will be going diesel for sure.

 

[Napria]

FYI, I do not believe there is a "medium duty" 4500. When you get into the 4500/450's you're in a Super Duty/Heavy Duty truck. Also check with your motor vehicle department. Some require a different class of license and/or higher taxes when you go beyond 3500/350's.

 

[PaHunter]

FYI, I do not believe there is a "medium duty" 4500. When you get into the 4500/450's you're in a Super Duty/Heavy Duty truck. Also check with your motor vehicle department. Some require a different class of license and/or higher taxes when you go beyond 3500/350's.

It wouldn't matter what DMV says about weight and all. I do have a CDL with air brakes. So to me it would not matter much. Yea it would be more to license, but not too much more.

 

[Teamubr]

FYI, I do not believe there is a "medium duty" 4500.

Actually Class "4" trucks are considered "medium duty". There is an actual truck classification system, but manufacturers distort the naming or create classes (Super Duty) for marketing.

Class 1,2,3 are considered "Light duty". These are the typical 1/2 ton trucks (F150) and the 250(0), 350(0) trucks most of us use.

Class 4,5,6 are "Medium duty". These are generally trash/dump trucks, school buses, smaller local delivery trucks.

Class 7 and 8 are "Heavy duty" and these are the typical semi trucks you see. Class 7's generally look like a semi except they may only have one drive axle. It's all weight based.

Ford uses "Super duty" for anything heavier than a 1/2 ton F150. Marketing to make us feel like "manly men".

If you are bored and really want to read more, here's a link explaining all of it. They even have pictures! Truck classes

Also check with your motor vehicle department. Some require a different class of license and/or higher taxes when you go beyond 3500/350's.

I think this varies a lot by state. Illinois, where I live, says I need a "non-CDL Class A" drivers license for any combination over 26,000 lbs... unless it is an RV. The tests (written and driving in an appropriate rig over 26K) are the same as a CDL. I just don't have to keep a log and I don't have restricted drive hours. Since all the race trailers are private and can technically be an "RV" by Illinois definition, I just need a regular passenger car license. Scary!

Missouri, where the race team is based and all the trailers are licensed, just has 2 license classes. "Drivers" and "Chauffeur". "Chauffeur" is if you are driving anything "for hire". The local auto parts guy driving the Ford Ranger for parts drops has to have a chauffeur license. They also make semi drivers have a CDL, but that's just for Class 7 and 8 vehicles.

The silliest part about all of this is the new race rig in the pic above is built on a Freightliner class 8 chassis. The whole combination is 84 ft long and weighs between 40-50k. Because it is a private vehicle and considered an RV, Missouri and Illinois only require a regular passenger car license to drive it.

Don't get me started on license plates for the trucks and trailers. Mo and IL have the opposite rules and both are nuts. Missouri actually makes it impossible to get the correct plates for my team mates F350.

j

 

[PaHunter]

The silliest part about all of this is the new race rig in the pic above is built on a Freightliner class 8 chassis. The whole combination is 84 ft long and weighs between 40-50k. Because it is a private vehicle and considered an RV, Missouri and Illinois only require a regular passenger car license to drive it.

This has always amazed and frustrated me. I used to drive daily commuter bus into New york city and hence the CDL. But yet grandpa who has only ever driven a honda civic can now go buy an RV as you describe above and just hop in a go. No training, no understanding, no physical, even diabetics. That is scary. And living on the 81 corridor I have seen RV buses with a 30 foot trailer behind them. But the RV industry would never sell those big rigs if people needed a CDL, so they lobby and win. But if you wish to deliver above vehicle from manufacturer to the dealership, you do indeed need a CDL. Crazy. Ok will get off my soap box now.

We have decided I believe at this time to go with a 2500 series truck with Diesel for our next purchase.

 

[Napria]

Hey Teamubr that was enlightening and interesting.

Here in GA our tag office considers my husband's 3500 Silverado "heavy duty". This classification is for emissions testing and I forget what the actual weight is, but the classification is for GVWR, which is odd to me because it's the towing capacity, not the actual weight of the truck alone. Don't quote me, but I think it's something like trucks over 8500 GVWR are exempt from emissions testing. You are also exempt from seatbelt laws in Georgia if you're in a pickup truck.

In New York where we moved from 14 years ago the registration fee was calculated by the weight of your vehicle. The heavier the weight, the higher the fee.

 

[Teamubr]

Hey Teamubr that was enlightening and interesting.

Napria,

Thanks for taking that post as it was intended. When I reread it, I thought "Wow, what a condescending, know it all, jerk wrote that?" Not at all what I was meaning. I get carried away sometimes.

In New York where we moved from 14 years ago the registration fee was calculated by the weight of your vehicle. The heavier the weight, the higher the fee.

The different state laws is what make this nuts. Some of us really try to comply with the rules, but they are hard to interpret. I had to call the state patrol at the capitol to get clarification on what kind of license I really needed and got 2 different answers. I asked if I had to have a physical for a non-CDL class A license. Commercial drivers do. I was told it was a federal law, not a state law, so Illinois didn't care, but another state might. What kind of answer is that? The Illinois drivers guide says you "may" need a physical.

Our truck plates in IL are similar to NY. "B" truck plates are good to 8000 lbs. "D" plates are up to 12,000 and that includes anything I'm carrying in the bed. My truck weighs almost 9000 empty, so I push it a bit with my "D" plate when I have a couple of tons of gravel or mulch in the back. The "D" plates cost 50% more than "B". "F" plates are double a "B" plate so I didn't want to go there.

j

 

[Napria]

Teamubr no worries. I figure most people on the Camping boards are as friendly and good-intentioned as the people I meet at the Fort. Plus I've seen you around here and you never struck me as mean or condescending. And, hey, you've got a Miata. Not quite as good as a MINI, but almost

 

[Teamubr]

And, hey, you've got a Miata. Not quite as good as a MINI, but almost

What do you mean I don't have a Mini.

Actually I don't have it anymore. I traded it last year for my wife's Nissan. I really liked that little car though. Unfortunately the DW hated the 6 speed and the rough ride. The Miata is actually my DS' (besides the race team Miatas)

j

 

[Sundancer330]

I am glad Michigan is very simple with the plate rates. They used to charge us by weight now its by value, my F350 only costs $150 a year with no weight limits, but the BMW is about $350. The truck does a lot more damage to the roads pulling the boat, and all trailers you only pay a one time fee that is good forever, I think the 48 foot trailer was less than $200.

 

[tiggerdad]

Mississippi, my f-250 tag cost $400 & my tag for my camper is $450...a year...