Commitment ceremonies at WDW

[Master Mason]

Actually, it was directed at Master Mason. However, by your definition of lifestyle, I presume there is a female lifestyle, male lifestyle, et al. If you continue your argument, it stands to reason that there are as many lifestyles as there are human beings on the planet. That's fine, and doesn't connect it to a choice.

Master Mason describes it as a lifestyle whilst disregarding the fact that being christian should also be described as such. He distinguishes "faith" from "lifestyle" as if faith is somehow not chosen, or at least not a lifestyle. He suggests a "rah rah christian" night is not comparable to a "rah rah GLBT" night. That argument is spurious because it illogically defines lifestyle in a manner that arbitrarily and erroneously suggests what is and is not.

In your suggestion, everything can be considered under a lifestyle rubric, in which case a comparison is possible - Disney discriminates based on tyranny of the majority and basic principles of profit and loss. That's it. I can ignore it, and do, or I can choose not to go to Disney. My choice to go balances their good work in other areas (e.g. staffing). It may indeed make business sense to give DP benefits, but they didn't have to. Are they 100% gay friendly? No. Do they have improvements to make? Yes. But until last year they outperformed my own university in that area of social justice. I give them credit for that - and continue to press for more.

I would caution, however, that this flippant use of lifestyle connotes choice and therefore an acceptance of hate as a reasonable ideology. I hate gays because they choose to be evil, says the right wing christian zealot. It becomes easier to vocalize and act on hatred because we "bring it on ourselves" much like the rape victim in the 70's. On the other hand, while they may believe it, it is not as easy to say I hate African Americans, and get away with it in civilized society. Ethnicity is not a choice. It may be a semantic difference, but in an age where "Clear Skies" in Bushspeak means "more pollution" semantics are ever important.

Your notion also suggests that there is a "gay" lifestyle. Is there really? I must have missed out on something. The only part of my life that is strictly gay is my partner. There is no one style of anything. You can be a christian and a reasonable human being, or you can be (or call yourself) a christian and a hate-filled monster. To say I choose the gay lifestyle suggests that there is one, beyond my personal likes, dislikes, etc. I'm not sure the whole notion of lifestyle in connection with social justice is exceptionally helpful.

But no..I wasn't coming down on you.

When I made the comment, I was responding to another poster.... It wasn't meant to be derogatory...

 

[MrVisible]

And I agree and support that.... But do you need a gay day to go and celebrate your life with your partner? You can and should do that, but it doesn't require a special day. And it if did, the day to me should be a "newly wed" day or something similar...

Does that make sense?

Yes. Yes, we do need that.

Do you have any idea what it will mean to us to be in Disneyland the day after our wedding, (which we're holding on the five year anniversary of our first date) and not be worried whenever we show each other our feelings? I'm not talking about big public displays of affection, I mean just holding hands or a quick kiss after the fireworks. Have you got any idea what it's like to worry that whenever you show the person you love any sign of affection, you might get laughed at? Beaten? Killed?

The day after we gather our families together and exchange vows and rings in front of them, we'll be in our favorite place in the world. And we won't be the only same-sex couple wearing Mickey groom ears. We won't be the only gay couple holding hands. We won't be the only men there who refer to each other as husbands.

We won't be freaks on our honeymoon.

Take a moment to try and appreciate what that means to us.

 

[Master Mason]

Yes. Yes, we do need that.

Do you have any idea what it will mean to us to be in Disneyland the day after our wedding, (which we're holding on the five year anniversary of our first date) and not be worried whenever we show each other our feelings? I'm not talking about big public displays of affection, I mean just holding hands or a quick kiss after the fireworks. Have you got any idea what it's like to worry that whenever you show the person you love any sign of affection, you might get laughed at? Beaten? Killed?

The day after we gather our families together and exchange vows and rings in front of them, we'll be in our favorite place in the world. And we won't be the only same-sex couple wearing Mickey groom ears. We won't be the only gay couple holding hands. We won't be the only men there who refer to each other as husbands.

We won't be freaks on our honeymoon.

Take a moment to try and appreciate what that means to us.

I have never walked in your shoes, so I can't even begin to guess at what you have experienced or feared.

But I do feel that until it becomes a non issue, where you don't have those feelings on an everyday basis, that the discrimination will always be there... I have always belived that everyone should be treated the same, and will do so right up until they hold themselves out to be different and require special priviages not affored everyone else... I may be in the minority of people that feel that way, but I really don't think so.

I guess to me, where this subject is at, is about the civil rights fights of the 60's. You still don't have all your rights, but it is a lot better than it was 10 years ago... and in another 10 years, it will start becoming politically incorrect to be bigotted against you.... Hopefully for everyone the learning curve is a little faster.

 

[ConcKahuna]

Just a quick comment on the Night of Joy tickets being sold on DisneyWorld.com. Just because Disney sells tickets for something, that doesnt mean they run it. A great example on the same page you linked is the Tom Joyner Family Reunion. It happens at WDW, but is paid for and planned by the Tom Joyner radio show. It's on the webpage, and they sell the tickets at the resorts and parks, but it's not a Disney event.


Isn't debate fun?

 

[Hedy]

It bugs me that they hold vow renewals (which are nice, but really, what power do they hold), yet refuse to do commitment ceremonies.
My money may be a little rainbow tinted, but it's still green.
Maybe if it was framed as lost revenue?

 

[MrVisible]

I have never walked in your shoes, so I can't even begin to guess at what you have experienced or feared.

But I do feel that until it becomes a non issue, where you don't have those feelings on an everyday basis, that the discrimination will always be there... I have always belived that everyone should be treated the same, and will do so right up until they hold themselves out to be different and require special priviages not affored everyone else... I may be in the minority of people that feel that way, but I really don't think so.

I guess to me, where this subject is at, is about the civil rights fights of the 60's. You still don't have all your rights, but it is a lot better than it was 10 years ago... and in another 10 years, it will start becoming politically incorrect to be bigotted against you.... Hopefully for everyone the learning curve is a little faster.

I agree that things are better now, and I share your hopes that they will continue to improve in the future.

I would like to point out that one of the chief lessons of the civil rights movement is that if a minority displays steadfast solidarity, if they persistently and doggedly pursue their rights through a variety of methods, they can eventually start the process of becoming truly equal.

I too look forward to the day when Gay Days become unnecessary. There isn't a day on the calendar when my partner and I should have to fear for our lives just because we show a little affection for each other. But in the meantime, until such equality is achieved, the days are still necessary. And we'll keep working towards the day that they aren't.

I'm afraid I'm a bit unclear on your meaning from the second paragraph of your post above. Do you think that gay people get special rights? What rights are those?

 

[Master Mason]

I agree that things are better now, and I share your hopes that they will continue to improve in the future.

I would like to point out that one of the chief lessons of the civil rights movement is that if a minority displays steadfast solidarity, if they persistently and doggedly pursue their rights through a variety of methods, they can eventually start the process of becoming truly equal.

I too look forward to the day when Gay Days become unnecessary. There isn't a day on the calendar when my partner and I should have to fear for our lives just because we show a little affection for each other. But in the meantime, until such equality is achieved, the days are still necessary. And we'll keep working towards the day that they aren't.

I'm afraid I'm a bit unclear on your meaning from the second paragraph of your post above. Do you think that gay people get special rights? What rights are those?

Not special rights persay, but hold themselves out to be different. Examples to me are gay days, black pride parades, affermitive action anything.... These are examples to me, of someone holding themselves up to be different and outside the norm... Lets all just be people and leave the lables at the door.

On a side note, I think that "gay days" kind of got a black eye and a negative conotation by some of the various parades etc that have been held in the past, that weren't anything more than Pornographic public displays.... When you say "gay day" that is what the majority will think of.

 

[Psychometrika]

My last post on this thread. I don't need the aggravation. I live with injustice every day. I come to Disney for fun - not more hate.

I would like to remind those who oppose gay days, African American days, etc. that it was not US who asked for them or, more to the point, made them necessary. You continue to blame the victim, and your pleas of liberality are shallow.

African Americans didn't create the need for the NAACP to exist. The white, christian majority with slavery, lynching and Jim Crow did - and do today with segregation and bigotry.

Jewish folk didn't create the need for the anti-defamation league. The white, christian majority promoting anti-semitism by refusing to allow immigrants fleeing the holocaust to come to the U.S. as Hitler marched, and neo-nazi movements, et al did - and do today, as little has changed.

New Hispanic/Latino/a immigrants didn't create the need for La Raza. The white, christian phobic majority promoting stereotypes and hostility did - and continue to do so as we once again shut our doors and post "minutemen" while still wanting them to clean our hotel rooms.

GLBT communities didn't create the need for pride parades or gay days. The white, christian majority who deny us basic human rights, bash us for simply living, and threaten us at every turn did - and do as they revoke our humanity in constitutional amendment after amendment.

Mason et al compain that we "hold ourselves out" for what we get. We somehow want to be "different" and will therefore never be equal. Pride Days, NAACP, La Raza, ADL - were created to provide us with a brief bit of protection from the white, christian majority that has for centuries oppressed us and continues to do so. It is up to THEM to answer for their crimes. We need not justify our existence or need for such days and organizations to anyone.

 

[Master Mason]

My last post on this thread. I don't need the aggravation. I live with injustice every day. I come to Disney for fun - not more hate.

I would like to remind those who oppose gay days, African American days, etc. that it was not US who asked for them or, more to the point, made them necessary. You continue to blame the victim, and your pleas of liberality are shallow.

African Americans didn't create the need for the NAACP to exist. The white, christian majority with slavery, lynching and Jim Crow did - and do today with segregation and bigotry.

Jewish folk didn't create the need for the anti-defamation league. The white, christian majority promoting anti-semitism by refusing to allow immigrants fleeing the holocaust to come to the U.S. as Hitler marched, and neo-nazi movements, et al did - and do today, as little has changed.

New Hispanic/Latino/a immigrants didn't create the need for La Raza. The white, christian phobic majority promoting stereotypes and hostility did - and continue to do so as we once again shut our doors and post "minutemen" while still wanting them to clean our hotel rooms.

GLBT communities didn't create the need for pride parades or gay days. The white, christian majority who deny us basic human rights, bash us for simply living, and threaten us at every turn did - and do as they revoke our humanity in constitutional amendment after amendment.

Mason et al compain that we "hold ourselves out" for what we get. We somehow want to be "different" and will therefore never be equal. Pride Days, NAACP, La Raza, ADL - were created to provide us with a brief bit of protection from the white, christian majority that has for centuries oppressed us and continues to do so. It is up to THEM to answer for their crimes. We need not justify our existence or need for such days and organizations to anyone.

By your very logic, the clan should be able to have their day at the World, all they want to do is be is suronded by people that think and act like they do. (please note, I realize that was an extream example..... and I am not advocating a clan day either...) But really what is the difference??

As long as there are days that are dedicated to a diversity, the people that don't like that diversity have a target... "Look at all them (fill in the blank)."

And I am not asking you to justify yourselves to anyone... your more than welcome to tell me I'm nuts and move on.... But as someone that does support your rights to live free and exist without issues, you might want to think about what that type of person thinks...

 

[MrVisible]

By your very logic, the clan should be able to have their day at the World, all they want to do is be is suronded by people that think and act like they do. (please note, I realize that was an extream example..... and I am not advocating a clan day either...) But really what is the difference??

So comparing gay days and religious days at Disneyland is out of the question, but comparing gay people to Klansmen is okay?

I'm trying to work with you here, to give you as much leeway as I have to offer, but this is getting rather silly.

As long as there are days that are dedicated to a diversity, the people that don't like that diversity have a target... "Look at all them (fill in the blank)."

They've had us as a target for generations. The gay days, gay pride, etcetera is us doing something about it. We know what happens when we sit back and stay silent, when we don't organize. We get repressed, brutalized, legislated against, marginalized, and killed. You yourself said that things have gotten better in the past ten years. Don't you think that's because of things like Gay Days? Or is it simple coincidence that an upsurge in popular support happened at the same time that gay people organized and put an emphasis on visibility and openness?

And I am not asking you to justify yourselves to anyone... your more than welcome to tell me I'm nuts and move on.... But as someone that does support your rights to live free and exist without issues, you might want to think about what that type of person thinks...

I appreciate your support, but I really question the reasoning behind your denunciation of gay people as an organized group. We made no progress as individuals for generations, and now that we're finally making strides, you're telling us that we're doing it wrong? Please suggest a better method of gaining societal acceptance and equal rights. I'm all ears.

Not special rights persay, but hold themselves out to be different. Examples to me are gay days, black pride parades, affermitive action anything.... These are examples to me, of someone holding themselves up to be different and outside the norm... Lets all just be people and leave the lables at the door.

Love to. How do you suggest we get there? Because that's not the situation right now, and things don't change unless people get out there and change them. Once again, I urge you to present your alternatives.

On a side note, I think that "gay days" kind of got a black eye and a negative conotation by some of the various parades etc that have been held in the past, that weren't anything more than Pornographic public displays.... When you say "gay day" that is what the majority will think of.

Until recently, the majority thought that gay people were child molesters and perverts only interested in sex. It's a misconception, and it's something that we have to work to overcome every day of our lives. The snippets of lewd behavior that camera crews catch during pride events are all the public ever sees of gay people, and that's massively unfortunate. Some gay people behave pretty outrageously, it's true. But some straight people do too, as is evidenced by footage from the Mardi Gras festival. And yet, somehow, I don't judge all of you by that standard.

Through patient education, I hope we can help people overcome these misconceptions.

What's your alternative?

 

[Master Mason]

So comparing gay days and religious days at Disneyland is out of the question, but comparing gay people to Klansmen is okay?

I'm trying to work with you here, to give you as much leeway as I have to offer, but this is getting rather silly.

I am sorry about this one to a certain extent... As I said when I was typing I was using an extream example. But often extreams get the point accross. The post I was responding to was ademate that it was about being sorounded by people that think and feel the same as they did, so I was trying to show that that is not always such a great idea....

They've had us as a target for generations. The gay days, gay pride, etcetera is us doing something about it. We know what happens when we sit back and stay silent, when we don't organize. We get repressed, brutalized, legislated against, marginalized, and killed. You yourself said that things have gotten better in the past ten years. Don't you think that's because of things like Gay Days? Or is it simple coincidence that an upsurge in popular support happened at the same time that gay people organized and put an emphasis on visibility and openness?


I appreciate your support, but I really question the reasoning behind your denunciation of gay people as an organized group. We made no progress as individuals for generations, and now that we're finally making strides, you're telling us that we're doing it wrong? Please suggest a better method of gaining societal acceptance and equal rights. I'm all ears.

I have no problem with the orgaized political actions.... what moved the civil rights fights of the 60's were those same types of marches.... So you got me there, I hadn't thought about that angle of it.

Love to. How do you suggest we get there? Because that's not the situation right now, and things don't change unless people get out there and change them. Once again, I urge you to present your alternatives.


Until recently, the majority thought that gay people were child molesters and perverts only interested in sex. It's a misconception, and it's something that we have to work to overcome every day of our lives. The snippets of lewd behavior that camera crews catch during pride events are all the public ever sees of gay people, and that's massively unfortunate. Some gay people behave pretty outrageously, it's true. But some straight people do too, as is evidenced by footage from the Mardi Gras festival. And yet, somehow, I don't judge all of you by that standard.

Through patient education, I hope we can help people overcome these misconceptions.

What's your alternative?

The problem is that so many people really don't know anyone personally that is gay. They have never spent any time with them, to get to know them as a person. All they know is what they see on TV, and What you see on TV was bad. Everyone knows someone who is straight and therefore they don't make judgments based on what they see at marti gras etc..... It is a perception issue.

I think the perception is purpetuated by the fact that the gays that are outragous often are the ones that are vocal. The normal ones that go about their lives not wanting to be part of a freak show are not the ones that get seen and heard very often. (please note, that those straights that act that way at mardi gras etc, I lump into the same freakshow catagory)

I have been fortunate enought to have become friends with several people that are gay, and my sister in law is gay as well. So I know that what you see on those outragious photo's are not the norm.... but I am in the minority. So, that is the perception that must be changed...

So, after all this, perhaps having a gay day at the World isn't such a bad idea, because the type of person that I would see attending that, is a different person than would attend the outragious parades, and that might help move the perception...

 

[dkostel]

The problem is that so many people really don't know anyone personally that is gay. They have never spent any time with them, to get to know them as a person. All they know is what they see on TV, and What you see on TV was bad. Everyone knows someone who is straight and therefore they don't make judgments based on what they see at marti gras etc..... It is a perception issue.

Everyone knows someone that is gay, they just don't know that the person is gay. Not everyone I know, knows I'm gay. Most people do, but sometimes you just don't want the hassle of someone who thinks you give a crap about what they think of your life passing judgement on you.

So, after all this, perhaps having a gay day at the World isn't such a bad idea, because the type of person that I would see attending that, is a different person than would attend the outragious parades, and that might help move the perception...

I attend the parade in Chicago every year. It is a chance to catch up with people you haven't seen in a while, see which candidates may be worthy of your vote, and support groups who are working on our behalves to make a better world. I doesn't bother me to see speedo - clad boys dancing on a float. But then again I've been to a public beach.
I know police officers who say they would rather work 10 gay pride parades than 1 St Patrick's day parade.

 

[MrVisible]

I have no problem with the orgaized political actions.... what moved the civil rights fights of the 60's were those same types of marches.... So you got me there, I hadn't thought about that angle of it.
...
So, after all this, perhaps having a gay day at the World isn't such a bad idea, because the type of person that I would see attending that, is a different person than would attend the outragious parades, and that might help move the perception...

It is really a rare and exquisite pleasure to talk with someone who allows their opinions to be changed through reasoned debate. It's the hallmark of honorable intelligence, and I consider it a privilege to be able to participate in discussions like this with people like yourself. Thank you.

The problem is that so many people really don't know anyone personally that is gay. They have never spent any time with them, to get to know them as a person. All they know is what they see on TV, and What you see on TV was bad. Everyone knows someone who is straight and therefore they don't make judgments based on what they see at marti gras etc..... It is a perception issue.

My personal strategy in this regard is to just get out there, get on with my life, be myself, and be completely, politely honest about my orientation. That means that when someone asks me about my weekend, I tell them that my boyfriend and I made a trip to Ikea, or that my boyfriend and I went out to the movies. Like I commented to my partner's sister, hanging out with us tends to take all the glitz and glamour out of anyone's perceptions of gay people. Heck, we hang out at Office Depot. For fun.

This subtle approach to increasing exposure, is, I think, particularly effective in dispelling prejudices. But it would never have been possible without the people who take more agressive, in-your-face approaches, and who do so every day even now. It's going to take a variety of tactics to win this battle. The agressive approach that so many people decry is making all the others possible. After all, if there wasn't a front line where people were being agressive and in-your-face, the next-less-agressive approach would be the one that people decried as being too extreme.

The in-your-face tactics that people are denouncing are pretty mild, after all. A few cross-dressers yelling, a few boys in thongs on parade floats. When you consider the tactics used by other oppressed minorities in civilizations throughout history in achieving their civil rights, we're being downright civil about the whole thing. It's a remarkably peacable movement.

Which makes sense. It's all about love.

 

[Master Mason]

It is really a rare and exquisite pleasure to talk with someone who allows their opinions to be changed through reasoned debate. It's the hallmark of honorable intelligence, and I consider it a privilege to be able to participate in discussions like this with people like yourself. Thank you.

Thank you... I think that that is the difference between having an opinion and either having an adgenda or being a bigot... If you have an opinion, and someone can show you why your opinion is wrong, your willing to change it... Someone with an agenda or a bigot will never admit they are wrong.