Commerical Use Policy Update - New Thread!

[Wakey]

Sandi- it is not easy to find all your insightful investigation results in this thread, could you do one post summarising everything like DVC meeting notes, emails and discussions with DVC?

 

[xdan0920]

Yup now we need to wait for enforcement and if any, we will see the consequences on SoMe

At this point, if there is any enforcement at all, I'll eat my hat.

 

[lowlight]

At this point, if there is any enforcement at all, I'll eat my hat.

I actually had a little regret about selling 2 of my contracts when I heard about the checkbox, but now I’m pretty sure it was the right decision for me. DVC just doesn’t have the (pick one or all three) fortitude, desire, or brainpower to tackle this issue.

 

[Sandisw]

Sandi- it is not easy to find all your insightful investigation results in this thread, could you do one post summarising everything like DVC meeting notes, emails and discussions with DVC?

Sure! I’ll post it when I get home today so I’m not doing on my phone!!

ETA: I got another response today so I will add that to all that I have now received.

 

[VGCgroupie]

Should we start a thread to just share what occurred while speaking to MS for anything reservation related? Or too much hassle because people wont listen and post their commentary as well?

 

[Sandisw]

DISCLAIMER: This is for informational purposes only and am summarizing the specifics I have gotten, either by phone, or email in response to my certified letter.

The DVC News article provides a pretty good summary of what the board said...and I have shared other things I wrote down and the context in which they were given so I won't go over those.

But, here is everything since June 1st that I have received in trying to make sure that I, as an owner, are well informed with first hand knowledge directly from DVC.

Information by Phone

I have talked to frontline CM's and MS supervisors....they have stated that there are no new policy changes, that the T & C were updated but that enforcement of the commerical purpose clause was the focus, and not anything new in terms of rules because we have never been allowed to rent for a commerical purpose.

Some tried to mislead me in not reading the entire clause about Personal Use (completely leaving out the line about renting) until I call them out and why I was sent to a supervisor a few times.

A few CM's, and MS supervisors, shared that owners whose rental activitiy appears to be to offset the cost of yearly dues...all dues, and not just the ones that are rented, that DVC would consider that a "no profit" situation but if you rent for more than dues, its not allowed...

I know of others who have been given similar information when calling MS to discuss what has happened since June 1st and the updated T & C were rolled out. There is nothing in writing stating this.

Information in Writing via Email and Documents.

I requested and received the official policy of record on file with DVC as the POS allowed me to do. The current policy is the 2011 policy....it is similar to the 2008 policy out there with just a few changes (which I have in Post #1)....bascially, its the 20 reservations rule.

I have not shared that publicly because I am waiting on written approval from DVC to do so. I did ask some follow up questions after getting it and I got a response today.

I asked about the offset of dues information I was told....to confirm that there were no other official documents of activities that I did not receive because of the "Policy Not Exclusive" clause, and if I could share the document.

I am actually choosing to post the content of the email (bolded by me to stand out)....but not adding commentary at this time...they did not confirm, nor dispute what the MS supervisor told me, but the last line confirms that the 2011 policy is indeed DVC's current policy on commerical renting....with, of course, that the rules may be subject to change....

From time to time, you may hear varying definitions related to commercial renting; for example, profiting, advertising, and engaging in commercial activities are all terms that are commonly affiliated with “commercial renting.” However, the focus is that our policies clearly state that a DVC membership is intended for the personal use and enjoyment of our members. Our recently updated Terms and Conditions state that use by friends and family is allowed if it’s done on occasion. Additionally, our various governing documents, including but not limited to our Declaration of Condominium, Home Resort Rules and Regulations, and our Public Offering Statement reaffirm that DVC memberships are for personal use only and not for commercial purposes.

Lastly, while the 2011 commercial use policy is DVC’s current policy on commercial renting, these rules may be subject to change.

I hope this helps clear up any confusion.

*since they did not answer my question about sharing that policy on a public forum, I did send back another email asking again....if I get permission, I will share that with others.

 

[Sandisw]

Should we start a thread to just share what occurred while speaking to MS for anything reservation related? Or too much hassle because people wont listen and post their commentary as well?

We can definitely start a thread like that with experiences so that this thread can continue regarding peoples thoughts about the moves DVC has, or has not, made to date.

 

[VGCgroupie]

From time to time, you may hear varying definitions related to commercial renting; for example, profiting, advertising, and engaging in commercial activities are all terms that are commonly affiliated with “commercial renting.” However, the focus is that our policies clearly state that a DVC membership is intended for the personal use and enjoyment of our members. Our recently updated Terms and Conditions state that use by friends and family is allowed if it’s done on occasion. Additionally, our various governing documents, including but not limited to our Declaration of Condominium, Home Resort Rules and Regulations, and our Public Offering Statement reaffirm that DVC memberships are for personal use only and not for commercial purposes.

Lastly, while the 2011 commercial use policy is DVC’s current policy on commercial renting, these rules may be subject to change.

I hope this helps clear up any confusion.

*since they did not answer my question about sharing that policy on a public forum, I did send back another email asking again....if I get permission, I will share that with others.

Well this does not clear up confusion. It seems the word rent was intentionally avoided in the first paragraph. The 2nd part makes it even more confusing since the first paragraph makes it sound as if renting is not allowed only friends and family use is allowed.

 

[mkatsy]

DISCLAIMER: This is for informational purposes only and am summarizing the specifics I have gotten, either by phone, or email in response to my certified letter.

The DVC News article provides a pretty good summary of what the board said...and I have shared other things I wrote down and the context in which they were given so I won't go over those.

But, here is everything since June 1st that I have received in trying to make sure that I, as an owner, are well informed with first hand knowledge directly from DVC.

Information by Phone

I have talked to frontline CM's and MS supervisors....they have stated that there are no new policy changes, that the T & C were updated but that enforcement of the commerical purpose clause was the focus, and not anything new in terms of rules because we have never been allowed to rent for a commerical purpose.

Some tried to mislead me in not reading the entire clause about Personal Use (completely leaving out the line about renting) until I call them out and why I was sent to a supervisor a few times.

A few CM's, and MS supervisors, shared that owners whose rental activitiy appears to be to offset the cost of yearly dues...all dues, and not just the ones that are rented, that DVC would consider that a "no profit" situation but if you rent for more than dues, its not allowed...

I know of others who have been given similar information when calling MS to discuss what has happened since June 1st and the updated T & C were rolled out. There is nothing in writing stating this.

Information in Writing via Email and Documents.

I requested and received the official policy of record on file with DVC as the POS allowed me to do. The current policy is the 2011 policy....it is similar to the 2008 policy out there with just a few changes (which I have in Post #1)....bascially, its the 20 reservations rule.

I have not shared that publicly because I am waiting on written approval from DVC to do so. I did ask some follow up questions after getting it and I got a response today.

I asked about the offset of dues information I was told....to confirm that there were no other official documents of activities that I did not receive because of the "Policy Not Exclusive" clause, and if I could share the document.

I am actually choosing to post the content of the email (bolded by me to stand out)....but not adding commentary at this time...they did not confirm, nor dispute what the MS supervisor told me, but the last line confirms that the 2011 policy is indeed DVC's current policy on commerical renting....with, of course, that the rules may be subject to change....

From time to time, you may hear varying definitions related to commercial renting; for example, profiting, advertising, and engaging in commercial activities are all terms that are commonly affiliated with “commercial renting.” However, the focus is that our policies clearly state that a DVC membership is intended for the personal use and enjoyment of our members. Our recently updated Terms and Conditions state that use by friends and family is allowed if it’s done on occasion. Additionally, our various governing documents, including but not limited to our Declaration of Condominium, Home Resort Rules and Regulations, and our Public Offering Statement reaffirm that DVC memberships are for personal use only and not for commercial purposes.

Lastly, while the 2011 commercial use policy is DVC’s current policy on commercial renting, these rules may be subject to change.

I hope this helps clear up any confusion.

*since they did not answer my question about sharing that policy on a public forum, I did send back another email asking again....if I get permission, I will share that with others.

These people have literally perfected the art of using a lot of words, to say absolutely nothing. It’s like trying to nail jello to a tree. I’m just going to answer them back with a similarly ambiguous riddle.

 

[Sandisw]

Well this does not clear up confusion. It seems the word rent was intentionally avoided in the first paragraph. The 2nd part makes it even more confusing since the first paragraph makes it sound as if renting is not allowed only friends and family use is allowed.

I agree and I think it goes to support that they are walking a very fine line with not giving away too much on what makes you renting for commerical purposes vs. renting within your right to right.

 

[VGCgroupie]

These people have literally perfected the art of using a lot of words, to say absolutely nothing. It’s like trying to nail jello to a tree. I’m just going to answer them back with a similarly ambiguous riddle.

Literally laughing out loud

 

[Sandisw]

These people have literally perfected the art of using a lot of words, to say absolutely nothing. It’s like trying to nail jello to a tree. I’m just going to answer them back with a similarly ambiguous riddle.

Well, they basically confirmed that the official policy is the 2011 policy, that the updated T & Cs explain it all, and that different terms can be used from time to time to describe commerical renting.....

What I do find interesting is that they did update the T & C for the personal use language, but choose to leave things status quo for booking and modifications.

While changes are always possible, it certainly seems odd to me that if they are planning new rules, they would not have just done it all at the same time....because any future changes will require this document to be updated again.

 

[Mouseforward]

I agree and I think it goes to support that they are walking a very fine line with not giving away too much on what makes you renting for commerical purposes vs. renting within your right to right.

I really think this is DVC trying to look tough on commercial renting with no intention whatsoever of doing anything about it.

They have probably had the same debate we have. There are aware of the early POS terms that allow renting. They’re also I’m sure made aware by their lawyers the high hurdle to change that. So they’re gonna lean into half truths and subtle intimidation to give the impression they’re doing something about it.

 

[VGCgroupie]

I really think this is DVC trying to look tough on commercial renting with no intention whatsoever of doing anything about it.

They have probably had the same debate we have. There are aware of the early POS terms that allow renting. They’re also I’m sure made aware by their lawyers the high hurdle to change that. So they’re gonna lean into half truths and subtle intimidation to give the impression they’re doing something about it.

I hope you are wrong and only time will tell. As it sits now commercial renters aren't intimidated, but normal members are.

 

[JackosinDIS]

I hope this helps clear up any confusion

Uh, no DVC, no it doesn’t.

 

[Mouseforward]

I hope you are wrong and only time will tell. As it sits now commercial renters aren't intimidated, but normal members are.

I absolutely agree with you that that will be the effect. Bad policy always results in bad results.

 

[Sandisw]

I really think this is DVC trying to look tough on commercial renting with no intention whatsoever of doing anything about it.

They have probably had the same debate we have. There are aware of the early POS terms that allow renting. They’re also I’m sure made aware by their lawyers the high hurdle to change that. So they’re gonna lean into half truths and subtle intimidation to give the impression they’re doing something about it.

The more time that goes by with no further updates to official documents and policies, the more I agree with you that there may be some legal hurdles that may simply not be as easy to clear or worth it for something that they themselves tried to downplay at the meeting to owners.....

I mean you don't tell owners "commericial renting activity is a small portion of all members reservations" without hoping that those in the room walk away with the notion its not a huge problem, but since its not allowed, we are going to stop it as best we can from happening.

 

[VGCgroupie]

We can definitely start a thread like that with experiences so that this thread can continue regarding peoples thoughts about the moves DVC has, or has not, made to date.

Thanks! I posted my experience. https://www.disboards.com/threads/experience-with-ms-phone-or-chat-for-reservations.3970408/

 

[kilik64]

Man I hope someone at DVC is reading this thread and going "Uh oh, Sandi got us! The jig is up!"

The plan is FUD alone looks like.

 

[Mouseforward]

The more time that goes by with no further updates to official documents and policies, the more I agree with you that there may be some legal hurdles that may simply not be as easy to clear or worth it for something that they themselves tried to downplay at the meeting to owners.....

I mean you don't tell owners "commericial renting activity is a small portion of all members reservations" without hoping that those in the room walk away with the notion its not a huge problem, but since its not allowed, we are going to stop it as best we can from happening.

I actually think it’s possible to stop commercial renting. Within the confines of the existing rules. I think we’re dealing with willingness to expend the resources and some poor leadership.

I think they should change the check box to ask if this is a rental or intended to be a rental

I think they should have a counter visible to the member on how many rentals they have rolling year.

I think accounts could be shut off and documentation requested when the account is suspected of being commercial. They could always restore the account if adequate evidence is provided by the owner.