Commerical Use Policy Update - New Thread!

[Sandisw]

The board can most certainly promulgate additional rules or change how the define the different commercial terms, but they will make them available upon request of members before the go into force.

I think you are exactly correct about the 20 reservation number before they start looking at the income compared to dues. If you have under 20 reservations they won’t be investigating that at this time. The important section from the POS is this “The association has adopted a policy regarding what constitutes commercial enterprise, practice or purpose……”. If it doesn’t fit the definition under that policy, it doesn’t constitute of violation of their policy. That means you have to hit the 20 number then the other things come into play.

If you keep it under 20 you are most likely safe making a profit at least for now.

I think that is true...however, I can add that nothing prevents DVC from looking at an account before 20...and if they think it might become an issue, monitor it more closely.

But, I think as long as the 2011 policy exists, they can't act in terms of cancelations until one reaches 20 total...not rentals, but 20 across all memberships. Even I get to 15 to 18 almost every year with my three memberships and 900 points and none are rentals!!! Split stays will do that!!!

What I could see DVC doing (though it might be alot) is send an owner a letter saying, we notice you have several reservations in the names of others right now and may be in violation of the commerical purposes clause....please be sure that you understand that any pattern of rental activity that appears to be commerical can result in cancellation".

Those who are in it for commerical reasons really will have a tough time, if DVC enforces the 2011 policy, to not be flagged...and then see them use other things to say you look like you are using it for commerical purposes

 

[VGCgroupie]

One small clarification...the 20 reservation rule is not defined as being rentals.....it says you can make as many reservations as you want up to 20...so that can be for you, yourself or renters...across any or all of your memberships. Everything counts....

However, I think the added information that I have been given by DVC about rental income not exceeding dues would be an added measure of commerical activity to support what is happening with those 20 reservations. And, the last clause of the 2011 policy gives them that right....

To me, this is what is different than how they have enforced in the past...they pretty much ignore members who had 20 or less....now, I think they will review memberships at 20 and maybe even monitor them more closely if it looks like an owner could be doing something out of sync...

So, here is how I sum it up (until we have evidence from DVC that my information about rental income in the amount of dues is wrong).

1. You can make up to 20 reservations in a rolling 12 month period for anyone you want (unless you are an LLC and then the POS defines who can be on those.

2. If you want to have more than 20, then one of the first 20 can be rentals...only yourself, family and friends.

3. If you do hit 20, then be prepared for DVC to review how many look like rentals and if it looks like the potential income would exceed dues...be prepared for DVC to act or give you a chace to dispute it....

Prior to receiving the document, and the way that the MS supervisor conveyed things to me was that ONLY rental income above dues would count...but now that we know that the 2011 policy is still in play, I think both are in play because one is specifically the policy and the other is fits into the clause about that not being the exhaustive list of what makes it commerical.

Rolling 12 months. This is the toughest part for me, its one more thing for me to have to keep track of along side banking, borrowing, 2 use years and 10 contracts. Calendar year is much more straight forward and easier to track.

 

[Sandisw]

Rolling 12 months. This is the toughest part for me, its one more thing for me to have to keep track of along side banking, borrowing, 2 use years and 10 contracts. Calendar year is much more straight forward and easier to track.

Actually, I am going to amend my post and use the actual words...its say "any 12 month period" and no longer uses the word "rolling".

I think the intent is the same...it doesn't have to a be calendar year...but I want to be accurate....the good news is, as someone who can come close to that 20, is that I think that if any of us who do get flagged for hitting 20, then when our accounts are reviwed and they see that the bulk of your reservations are for the owners, they will just dismiss it.

 

[ShaneDJ]

One small clarification...the 20 reservation rule is not defined as being rentals.....it says you can make as many reservations as you want up to 20...so that can be for you, yourself or renters...across any or all of your memberships. Everything counts....

Thank you. I have added the clarifications.

 

[Brianstl]

I think that is true...however, I can add that nothing prevents DVC from looking at an account before 20...and if they think it might become an issue, monitor it more closely.

But, I think as long as the 2011 policy exists, they can't act in terms of cancelations until one reaches 20 total...not rentals, but 20 across all memberships. Even I get to 15 to 18 almost every year with my three memberships and 900 points and none are rentals!!! Split stays will do that!!!

What I could see DVC doing (though it might be alot) is send an owner a letter saying, we notice you have several reservations in the names of others right now and may be in violation of the commerical purposes clause....please be sure that you understand that any pattern of rental activity that appears to be commerical can result in cancellation".

Those who are in it for commerical reasons really will have a tough time, if DVC enforces the 2011 policy, to not be flagged...and then see them use other things to say you look like you are using it for commerical purposes

A letter warning will be enough to scare off many regular members from approaching anything that the member thinks Disney could ever possibly consider commercial way before they get 20 reservations. They might be able to make a huge dent in rentals without changing how they define anything in the policy. Just enforce the policy on the businesses and sending letters to some smaller fishes they think are taking advantage of the system.

 

[Mouseforward]

Regrettably, I don't think I will ever have to worry about 20 reservations in a 12 month period. But I will get 21 park days on my AP, and 28 nights on property in 12 months, so I think this will be my personal best year.

 

[Brianstl]

Regrettably, I don't think I will ever have to worry about 20 reservations in a 12 month period. But I will get 21 park days on my AP, and 28 nights on property in 12 months, so I think this will be my personal best year.

Nice

 

[ShaneDJ]

With these new DVC rules for renting becoming clearer, I want to highlight this post:

#3,483 from Sandi at the (now closed) thread: "DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread"

====
I am not, and never have been, convinced that even with enhanced enforcement that you are going to see a major change in the overall market, because I believe that the bulk of the owners who are renting are doing so for "non-commercial" purposes.
====

So...we likely won't even notice changes from this new "enhanced enforcement" renting policy.

 

[Sandisw]

A letter warning will be enough to scare off many regular members from approaching anything that the member thinks Disney could ever possibly consider commercial way before they get 20 reservations. They might be able to make a huge dent in rentals without changing how they define anything in the policy. Just enforce the policy on the businesses and sending letters to some smaller fishes they think are taking advantage of the system.

And to add, there would be nothing to stop DVC from giving owners examples of what they are looking for such use "rental income that would appear to exceed annual dues" as a determining factor!

Hopefully, I will get offiical confirmation from the people who sent me the policy as to whether there is an update in the works, and if they can shed any more light on how the information regarding rental income in excess of dues will be used...or tell me I was lied to and then I can file a formal complaint against those at MS that told me, and several others, that this was going to be part of enforcement.

I will be shocked if it is disputed, but could see them saying 'Yes, this is something that DVC could use to determine that a profit exists and therefore, an owner would be in violation of the commercial purpose clause".

We shall see!!!

 

[Sandisw]

So that Section 8 posted makes it more clear, this is a board approved policy for only one type of account activity that will flag you as commercial. They make it clear that is not the extent of activities that will deem you commercial.

We also know this because they in other areas in the POS, the check box , and contracts mention

1. Advertising or creating a website.
2. A pattern of buying and reselling resale contracts.
3. Transferring points for $

Correct…but I think that because this is the offical policy, then any additional list of other actions can be in conjunction but can’t contradict it.

As I said, if the policy says you can make as many reservations as you want up to 20, then they can’t stop someone from doing that without changing that policy.

They can ignore policy and not enforce…like transfer for money, but they can’t simply do something that goes against what is written.

I definitely agree that they can add qualified reasons as to what else looks commercial..like what I have been told will be used…and nothing prevents them from reviewing before twenty and giving an owner notice to be careful, but I don’t think they can cancel anything before an owner gets to having 20…or prevent an owner from booking less than 20, without an offical policy update.

Which, would be easy for them. All they need to add is “You can make as many reservations as you want up to 20, as long as it’s not for commercial purposes.

For example, maybe the only ones the owner has right now are in the names of other but simply hasn’t yet booked all of their own reservations yet?

So I do think this policy has to play a role in enforcement until such time they rewrite it and remove the 20 reservations threshold.

Basically, they won’t act until a owner gets to 20..but if you do, and you have rentals be prepared for enforcement for any of those reservations.

Again, I would not assume this is being changed. Noting was ever said at the meeting that the board planned to make new policy, but rather find ways to stop commerucsl renting which was against the rules already.

ETA: And I’d wager a pretty penny that those owners who have pushed limits have more than 20 reservations tied to them in some way and could be why the board did not feel the need to update the offical policy.

 

[zavandor]

@Sandisw thank you for contacting DVC and requesting the policy, but I do not agree with your approach to this thread.
It is certainly your right to decide not to share the official response, but then as a moderator you cannot close a thread and open a new one as the only one dedicated to the argument, based on the new policy you have received and then share only your interpretation of it. Adding to that, in posts you mix information about the policy, what you've been told on the phone and your interpretation of it all. I know you want to clarify things, but the end result is that you're muddling the waters.
I will personally contact DVC to ask the policy myself and I will publish it here once I receive it.

 

[mkatsy]

I just recounted. I am at 16 not 15 reservations. I almost booked a stay today, but then didnt. I am glad I didn't, now Disney wont get that DLR ticket money from me.. With the 20 reservation rule I am actually 2nd guessing my choice to buy another contract.

I’m in the same boat, I live here and I have three use years. The three use years works because I have the flexibility. I have zero interest in tracking my reservations so I don’t exceed an antiquated and arbitrary number that was established under a completely different set of circumstances. DVC is supposed to bring joy, not more work, and I’m completely uninterested in second guessing my reservations to preserve my ability to rent at some point in the rolling 12 months while LLC’s routinely conduct hundreds of transactions and walk away unscathed. The whole thing is starting to feel shady.

 

[Sandisw]

@Sandisw thank you for contacting DVC and requesting the policy, but I do not agree with your approach to this thread.
It is certainly your right to decide not to share the official response, but then as a moderator you cannot close a thread and open a new one as the only one dedicated to the argument, based on the new policy you have received and then share only your interpretation of it. Adding to that, in posts you mix information about the policy, what you've been told on the phone and your interpretation of it all. I know you want to clarify things, but the end result is that you're muddling the waters.
I will personally contact DVC to ask the policy myself and I will publish it here once I receive it.

I closed down the other thread just because it was so long and at that point, it made sense to continue it here

Give the nature of this topic, it is a lot of work to oversee as it can lead down a path of arguments and personal attacks.

So, as mods we decided to keep this topic in one thread…and we will do the same when it comes to potential rule changes in reference to walking.

In terms of the policy? As I said, it’s pretty much the same as 2008 except the two things I mentioned.

I have said many times that other owners should contact MS and share the information here so we can get more reports.

And if people want the offical policy, then they can do as I did, and request it.

I have been very clear that some of my information came verbally from MS a few times as well as from other who have have been told the same thing but that I personally believe it was given factual information and if I find out from DVC I was not, then I will be filing a formal complaint.

The first post even indicates I have asked for further information from them.

I am not posting the document because I don’t believe I have the legal right to post publicly without express permission from DVC.

I appreciate someone else is going to go to the extent I have to get answers and I am sure the rest of the posters welcomes it!

But, I am certainly not going to shy away from sharing with others what information is being given when owners pursue this.

At least those who have concerns now know this is thar an offical policy definiton still exists and can use that information in their own quest to seek answers.

 

[Kingkonig]

I have maintained since the beginning of this thread that Disney can keep 20+ as a threshold but also add other criteria for what would include commercial renting (e.g. collecting more than the total of your dues)—in legal reasoning, we would say 20+ reservations is “sufficient but not necessary” for Disney to consider you a commercial renter.

I personally think the “20+ reservations means you can’t have a single rental” policy is terrible, because (without more) it would mean someone can rent out 100% of their points at the most profitable categories but someone can else who actually visits WDW or DLR 2x a month (or less than once a month with split stays!) can’t rent even a single room. It creates an additional disadvantage for those of us owners with multiple UY, because we may have multiple consecutive reservations for the same room. Having said that, it’s Disney’s vacation club and I guess I’ll just need to be careful to visit a little less often if I’m approaching 20 in a year I might rent.

Yeah, unless there is a specific statement in the legal documents that state that this is the exclusive definition of commercial renting, all this says to me is “if you hit 20, you automatically trigger a review”. Now Disney may not have the manpower to do other reviews, but I’d be wary of holding to the hard and fast “20 in a rolling 12 months” or “20 in a calendar year” is the only way to be caught or reviewed for suspected commercial activity.

 

[Sandisw]

Yeah, unless there is a specific statement in the legal documents that state that this is the exclusive definition of commercial renting, all this says to me is “if you hit 20, you automatically trigger a review”. Now Disney may not have the manpower to do other reviews, but I’d be wary of holding to the hard and fast “20 in a rolling 12 months” or “20 in a calendar year” is the only way to be caught or reviewed for suspected commercial activity.

It is the adopted policy as of today and it includes the policy and enforcement.

I posted above the clause that owners should not assume that other things can not be used..they can and the info I have been verbally given by MS woild appear to me to align with that clause.

So, they can definitely use other things to support their case because this does provide what enforcement looks like and as an owner, that is what I expect to happen if they find me on violation of commercial purposes.

ETA: link to the article that has the 2008 policy which is pretty much the same. Enforcement clause is the same.

https://dvcnews.com/index.php/dvc-p...commercial-renting-limitations-amended-to-pos

 

[Sandisw]

I think it would be a mistake to consider this 2011 policy DVC only tool to enforce. I would not be surprised if we asked for the policy again in let’s say three months that there would be a new policy.

True but any update has to be submitted to the state for review if I am reading FL 721 correctly.

But, until such time as a new adopted policy exists? This one stands as the boards offical policy.

ETA: I view it the same light as the holding penalty of the HRR…it says it happens at 30 days but the HRR gives them the right to amend that document.

If anyone goes to cancel at 60 days, and they get hit with holding, would anyone really say that DVC would not be violating the written policy?

 

[drusba]

Since the other thread has gotten long, and this is the new information I have received, I thought we should start a new one!

As many know, I excerised my right as an owner to get a copy of the Commerical Use Policy from DVC as the POS of both my VGF and SSR contractes stated was a record of the association...and the policy adopted by the board.

Today, I received a written copy of the policy and it is the same policy that has been in existence since 2011....it is very similar to the 2008 policy (which some believed was no longer the policy) that many of us have seen but a few differences.

1. It is still the 20 reservations rule but it now states that it can be viewed across memberships of an owner, including ones in which someone is an associate.

2. It states that if a a member tries to make more than 20 reservations, then MS will not confirm it unless the owner can satisfy that all 20 are for themselves, family and friends. Any reservations above 20, will be considered in violation of the multiple reservations rule, defined as "using the membership for commerical purposes".

This response was sent to me via email so there was no correspondence included other than "Attached is our policy against commerical use of vacation points".

Since this policy was adopted prior to online booking, my guess is that the flagging of accounts for going over the 20 reservations will continue and that potentially, they will have added a metric for what might be renting for more than dues?

Given that DVC provided me with this today, this policy is still in effect. Where does the annual dues definition that I was told will be used fit? IMy guess is that will be an additional threshold, as it says that they are allowed to add as it says this policy is not exclusive and additional actions can be added.

I have sent a seperate email to them to see if they will address that (and included the date, time of the call) as well as having them to confirm that if this policy is to be updated, that an official amendement to the state would occur.

I did have the chance to speak to an MS supervisor again today to express some of my concern regarding what seems to be inconsistent messaging by frontline CMs...she said they have specific information they are required to share with owners who call...and basically that is to ask for owners to confirm it is for personal use and if one says yes, then it will be confirmed. No changes to booking rules or lead guest changes rules as long as someone agrees it falls under the T&C for personal use.

I also mentioned my concern that the implication is, when renting is mentioned, that it can only be for family and friends, and that doesn't match the T & C (or contract) and that I thought it was important that those frontline CM's are always using the word "commerical renting" is not allowed because its confusing...she made note of that and will forward my feedback.

As she said, this is not new policy, but enhaned enforcement. So, at this point, my personal experience has gotten me that the 2011 policy is in effect, and the renting to offset dues would not be seen as commerical.

Until I get something from DVC that contradicts all I have been told, and what I have now been given as the written policy, I am comfortable that I have a good idea of how DVC defines commerical purposes in the context of the contract.

My recommendation for anyone who would like a copy of the written policy for their own records, send a certified letter, return receipt, requesting it like I did and include the clause from your contract and this statute that helped me get it within the 10 working days as requred by law!

Per FL 718.301(4), #20, c (1.a) it says:
“ The association may adopt reasonable rules regarding the frequency, time, location, notice, and manner of record inspections and copying but may not require a member to demonstrate any purpose or state any reason for the inspection. The failure of an association to provide the records within 10 working days after receipt of a written request creates a rebuttable presumption that the association willfully failed to comply with this paragraph”

From SSR POS (similar in VGF)...not sure where it exists in other home resort POS's....

View attachment 980256

The Personal Use definition appears in section 12 of the declarations of all the DVC Resorts. The CCV and after resorts are somewhat different in that they mainly define personal use as use of the vacation homes by "Persons" as a vacation accommodation, and you need to go to the definitions section of the declarations to learn that Persons expressly includes lessees.

As to MS personnel possibly saying things incorrectly about the current policies, I am guessing that, similar to times in the past, that is more likely a problem of MS personnel still being in the training stages as to what they should do and what they can say to members.

 

[Sandisw]

The personal use definition appears in section 12 of the declarations for resorts before Riviera.

The Personal Use definition appears in section 12 of the declarations of all the DVC Resorts. The CCV and after resorts are somewhat different in that they mainly define personal use as use of the vacation homes by "Persons" as a vacation accommodation, and you need to go to the definitions section of the declarations to learn that Persons expressly includes lessees.

As to MS personnel possibly saying things incorrectly about the current policies, I am guessing that, similar to times in the past, that is more likely a problem of MS personnel still being in the training stages as to what they should do and what they can say to members.

Which is why I have reached out to the people who responded to my request of the policy for comment on this.

I will definitely post here if I get something from them that the info I was given was simply not true and there is no plan to consider rental income above dues as a metric!!

 

[JulieBeeRN]

One small clarification...the 20 reservation rule is not defined as being rentals.....it says you can make as many reservations as you want up to 20...so that can be for you, yourself or renters...across any or all of your memberships. Everything counts....

However, I think the added information that I have been given by DVC about rental income not exceeding dues would be an added measure of commerical activity to support what is happening with those 20 reservations. And, the last clause of the 2011 policy gives them that right....

To me, this is what is different than how they have enforced in the past...they pretty much ignore members who had 20 or less....now, I think they will review memberships at 20 and maybe even monitor them more closely if it looks like an owner could be doing something out of sync...

So, here is how I sum it up (until we have evidence from DVC that my information about rental income in the amount of dues is wrong).

1. You can make up to 20 reservations in any 12 month period for anyone you want (unless you are an LLC and then the POS defines who can be on those.

2. If you want to have more than 20, then none of the first 20 can be rentals...only yourself, family and friends.

3. If you do hit 20, then be prepared for DVC to review how many look like rentals and if it looks like the potential income would exceed dues...be prepared for DVC to act or give you a chace to dispute it....

Prior to receiving the document, and the way that the MS supervisor conveyed things to me was that ONLY rental income above dues would count...but now that we know that the 2011 policy is still in play, I think both are in play because one is specifically the policy and the other is fits into the clause about that not being the exhaustive list of what makes it commerical.

Count me in the 5 year old camp too

So can you have over 20 reservations (combination of renters and personal use) as long as your rentals do not exceed your dues? We have a lot of split stays; give points to our adult children; and have rented occasionally. Haven't gone over 20 reservations but there is always that possibility in the future.

 

[Sandisw]

Count me in the 5 year old camp too

So can you have over 20 reservations (combination of renters and personal use) as long as your rentals do not exceed your dues? We have a lot of split stays; give points to our adult children; and have rented occasionally. Haven't gone over 20 reservations but there is always that possibility in the future.

No…the offical policy does not allow for more than 20 reservations in any 12 month period unless all 20 are for yourself, family and friends.

So, if you want more than 20, then you have to satisfy to DVC that none of the first 20 are rentals.

If you can’t, then you are capped and any owner 20 would be canceled.

Where this new information regarding dues that I was verbally told would come in to play is under the clause that they can add to what they see as commercial.

So, if you get to 20 and you get reviewed, and they think your 20 look like you are commercial, then they can use what I was told as the factor.

If it looks like you are renting to offset dues, I was told that is allowed.

Now, they can review an account at any time but based on the way this offical is written, it allows you to make up to as many as you want up to and including 20.

ETA: the one caveat to this is transferred points. The HRR states they can cancel or prevent reservations made with transferred points if they feel it’s for commercial purposes.