Commerical Use Policy Update - New Thread!

[Sandisw]

The board can most certainly promulgate additional rules or change how the define the different commercial terms, but they will make them available upon request of members before the go into force.

I think you are exactly correct about the 20 reservation number before they start looking at the income compared to dues. If you have under 20 reservations they won’t be investigating that at this time. The important section from the POS is this “The association has adopted a policy regarding what constitutes commercial enterprise, practice or purpose……”. If it doesn’t fit the definition under that policy, it doesn’t constitute of violation of their policy. That means you have to hit the 20 number then the other things come into play.

If you keep it under 20 you are most likely safe making a profit at least for now.

I think that is true...however, I can add that nothing prevents DVC from looking at an account before 20...and if they think it might become an issue, monitor it more closely.

But, I think as long as the 2011 policy exists, they can't act in terms of cancelations until one reaches 20 total...not rentals, but 20 across all memberships. Even I get to 15 to 18 almost every year with my three memberships and 900 points and none are rentals!!! Split stays will do that!!!

What I could see DVC doing (though it might be alot) is send an owner a letter saying, we notice you have several reservations in the names of others right now and may be in violation of the commerical purposes clause....please be sure that you understand that any pattern of rental activity that appears to be commerical can result in cancellation".

Those who are in it for commerical reasons really will have a tough time, if DVC enforces the 2011 policy, to not be flagged...and then see them use other things to say you look like you are using it for commerical purposes

 

[VGCgroupie]

One small clarification...the 20 reservation rule is not defined as being rentals.....it says you can make as many reservations as you want up to 20...so that can be for you, yourself or renters...across any or all of your memberships. Everything counts....

However, I think the added information that I have been given by DVC about rental income not exceeding dues would be an added measure of commerical activity to support what is happening with those 20 reservations. And, the last clause of the 2011 policy gives them that right....

To me, this is what is different than how they have enforced in the past...they pretty much ignore members who had 20 or less....now, I think they will review memberships at 20 and maybe even monitor them more closely if it looks like an owner could be doing something out of sync...

So, here is how I sum it up (until we have evidence from DVC that my information about rental income in the amount of dues is wrong).

1. You can make up to 20 reservations in a rolling 12 month period for anyone you want (unless you are an LLC and then the POS defines who can be on those.

2. If you want to have more than 20, then one of the first 20 can be rentals...only yourself, family and friends.

3. If you do hit 20, then be prepared for DVC to review how many look like rentals and if it looks like the potential income would exceed dues...be prepared for DVC to act or give you a chace to dispute it....

Prior to receiving the document, and the way that the MS supervisor conveyed things to me was that ONLY rental income above dues would count...but now that we know that the 2011 policy is still in play, I think both are in play because one is specifically the policy and the other is fits into the clause about that not being the exhaustive list of what makes it commerical.

Rolling 12 months. This is the toughest part for me, its one more thing for me to have to keep track of along side banking, borrowing, 2 use years and 10 contracts. Calendar year is much more straight forward and easier to track.

 

[Sandisw]

Rolling 12 months. This is the toughest part for me, its one more thing for me to have to keep track of along side banking, borrowing, 2 use years and 10 contracts. Calendar year is much more straight forward and easier to track.

Actually, I am going to amend my post and use the actual words...its say "any 12 month period" and no longer uses the word "rolling".

I think the intent is the same...it doesn't have to a be calendar year...but I want to be accurate....the good news is, as someone who can come close to that 20, is that I think that if any of us who do get flagged for hitting 20, then when our accounts are reviwed and they see that the bulk of your reservations are for the owners, they will just dismiss it.

 

[ShaneDJ]

One small clarification...the 20 reservation rule is not defined as being rentals.....it says you can make as many reservations as you want up to 20...so that can be for you, yourself or renters...across any or all of your memberships. Everything counts....

Thank you. I have added the clarifications.

 

[Brianstl]

I think that is true...however, I can add that nothing prevents DVC from looking at an account before 20...and if they think it might become an issue, monitor it more closely.

But, I think as long as the 2011 policy exists, they can't act in terms of cancelations until one reaches 20 total...not rentals, but 20 across all memberships. Even I get to 15 to 18 almost every year with my three memberships and 900 points and none are rentals!!! Split stays will do that!!!

What I could see DVC doing (though it might be alot) is send an owner a letter saying, we notice you have several reservations in the names of others right now and may be in violation of the commerical purposes clause....please be sure that you understand that any pattern of rental activity that appears to be commerical can result in cancellation".

Those who are in it for commerical reasons really will have a tough time, if DVC enforces the 2011 policy, to not be flagged...and then see them use other things to say you look like you are using it for commerical purposes

A letter warning will be enough to scare off many regular members from approaching anything that the member thinks Disney could ever possibly consider commercial way before they get 20 reservations. They might be able to make a huge dent in rentals without changing how they define anything in the policy. Just enforce the policy on the businesses and sending letters to some smaller fishes they think are taking advantage of the system.

 

[Mouseforward]

Regrettably, I don't think I will ever have to worry about 20 reservations in a 12 month period. But I will get 21 park days on my AP, and 28 nights on property in 12 months, so I think this will be my personal best year.

 

[Brianstl]

Regrettably, I don't think I will ever have to worry about 20 reservations in a 12 month period. But I will get 21 park days on my AP, and 28 nights on property in 12 months, so I think this will be my personal best year.

Nice

 

[ShaneDJ]

With these new DVC rules for renting becoming clearer, I want to highlight this post:

#3,483 from Sandi at the (now closed) thread: "DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread"

====
I am not, and never have been, convinced that even with enhanced enforcement that you are going to see a major change in the overall market, because I believe that the bulk of the owners who are renting are doing so for "non-commercial" purposes.
====

So...we likely won't even notice changes from this new "enhanced enforcement" renting policy.

 

[Sandisw]

A letter warning will be enough to scare off many regular members from approaching anything that the member thinks Disney could ever possibly consider commercial way before they get 20 reservations. They might be able to make a huge dent in rentals without changing how they define anything in the policy. Just enforce the policy on the businesses and sending letters to some smaller fishes they think are taking advantage of the system.

And to add, there would be nothing to stop DVC from giving owners examples of what they are looking for such use "rental income that would appear to exceed annual dues" as a determining factor!

Hopefully, I will get offiical confirmation from the people who sent me the policy as to whether there is an update in the works, and if they can shed any more light on how the information regarding rental income in excess of dues will be used...or tell me I was lied to and then I can file a formal complaint against those at MS that told me, and several others, that this was going to be part of enforcement.

I will be shocked if it is disputed, but could see them saying 'Yes, this is something that DVC could use to determine that a profit exists and therefore, an owner would be in violation of the commercial purpose clause".

We shall see!!!

 

[Sandisw]

So that Section 8 posted makes it more clear, this is a board approved policy for only one type of account activity that will flag you as commercial. They make it clear that is not the extent of activities that will deem you commercial.

We also know this because they in other areas in the POS, the check box , and contracts mention

1. Advertising or creating a website.
2. A pattern of buying and reselling resale contracts.
3. Transferring points for $

Correct…but I think that because this is the offical policy, then any additional list of other actions can be in conjunction but can’t contradict it.

As I said, if the policy says you can make as many reservations as you want up to 20, then they can’t stop someone from doing that without changing that policy.

They can ignore policy and not enforce…like transfer for money, but they can’t simply do something that goes against what is written.

I definitely agree that they can add qualified reasons as to what else looks commercial..like what I have been told will be used…and nothing prevents them from reviewing before twenty and giving an owner notice to be careful, but I don’t think they can cancel anything before an owner gets to having 20…or prevent an owner from booking less than 20, without an offical policy update.

Which, would be easy for them. All they need to add is “You can make as many reservations as you want up to 20, as long as it’s not for commercial purposes.

For example, maybe the only ones the owner has right now are in the names of other but simply hasn’t yet booked all of their own reservations yet?

So I do think this policy has to play a role in enforcement until such time they rewrite it and remove the 20 reservations threshold.

Basically, they won’t act until a owner gets to 20..but if you do, and you have rentals be prepared for enforcement for any of those reservations.

Again, I would not assume this is being changed. Noting was ever said at the meeting that the board planned to make new policy, but rather find ways to stop commerucsl renting which was against the rules already.

ETA: And I’d wager a pretty penny that those owners who have pushed limits have more than 20 reservations tied to them in some way and could be why the board did not feel the need to update the offical policy.

 

[zavandor]

@Sandisw thank you for contacting DVC and requesting the policy, but I do not agree with your approach to this thread.
It is certainly your right to decide not to share the official response, but then as a moderator you cannot close a thread and open a new one as the only one dedicated to the argument, based on the new policy you have received and then share only your interpretation of what you have received. Adding to that, in posts you mix information about the policy, what you've been told on the phone and your interpretation of it all. I know you want to clarify things, but the end result is that you're muddling the waters.
I will personally contact DVC to ask the policy myself and I will publish it here once I receive it.