College or not?

[MrsPete]

OP here - thanks everyone! I knew there would be a variety of responses - that's what I need to hear.

DD wants to go to college, has an idea about what she is interested in, and My DH and I have 3 college degrees between us. DD is not sure which college or for sure which path to take just yet (I realize this is fine! she's just starting senior year). She's excited at the prospect of going away to school, but this being the budget board, $ is definietly a big factor.

Was just trying to take the temperature of how important/useful a college degree is "these days", and 4 year vs an "art school" or junior college, or just waiting until you firm up what you want to do before jumping in and writing a big check (or getting a big loan).

Not what I understood from the first post at all. Now my questions are different:

Earlier you sounded like she was ambivalent, not you say she's excited about going away to college? Does she perhaps WANT to go away to college IN THEORY, but is a little fearful in reality? Perhaps the freedom sounds good, but the responsibility of taking care of herself sounds a little scary? If so, perhaps staying home /commuting is a good idea. Or living in a dorm, which is a perfect half-way step out of mom and dad's house. Or, perhaps what she really needs is to do some college visits and SEE the places for herself.

Are friends a problem in this situation? This is something I see constantly -- but worse with girls: They want to stick with their high school friends, and they try to finagle things so that they all end up at the same place? Or, worse, is it a boyfriend from whom she doesn't want to part?

I think for a "professional" white collar job, a college degree is necessary. HOWEVER, an expensive one isn't. If you can't get into a top 100 school, don't bother paying more than $10k a year for college (maybe a little more by the time you add rooms and board).

I don't know that I'd be quite that specific, but this sounds like a decent guideline.

My oldest daughter (a high school junior) wants to earn a nursing degree, work a few years, and then get an MA nursing specialty. I think she's making good choices. Anyway, I've told her that -- in her case -- it doesn't really matter what school name appears on her diploma; rather, what matters is that she passes the state nursing tests and earns a license at the end of her four years!

It's important to help 18-year old kids realize this before they commit themselves to massive debt for THE SCHOOL.

I'll tell a story about one of my students: She had to -had to -had to attend the expensive private school where both her parents graduated. Never mind she has essentially no help from her parents (who are middle-class and have four children) and the school is across the country (meaning transportation, etc. are significant costs). Her major: Elementary education. I was close to this student, and I did my best to talk her out of this choice, but she was determined that this was the ONLY SCHOOL for her. She attended four years, graduated, LOVED every minute. Now she's back home. She found a job immediately, but she's living with her parents and is teaching all day, then working in the evenings waiting tables. Every penny she makes goes to pay her student loan bills, and it's going to be like this FOR YEARS.

She had a fantasy when she took on this debt: She thought she'd meet a guy at school, marry, and with two salaries they'd knock out the debt quickly. I know that you, an adult, see multiple holes in that theory, but she was young and naive when she took on this debt.

 

[MrsPete]

I am a strong believer of going to a 2 year community college first and then transferring out to a four year university. You save lots of money and energy for the lower division and non-degree-related courses.

I think this "community college first" can be a good choice in certain situations: A student who isn't sure about college at all or a student who can only commit two years right now. It's definitely better to get into what you can actually finish: A two-year degree is worth something, two years of study towards a four-year degree is worth nothing.

But I'm not convinced that it saves a bunch of money. Why? Because most people who transfer in from a community college need at least three years at the university to finish off that four year degree, which means that this plan usually takes five years (which, admittedly, can happen for the person who goes straight to the university as well).

I think the absolute cheapest route to a four-year degree is to commute from your parents' house to a university from Day 1. Of course, not everyone lives in the right place for that to be a viable option.

 

[stacie_d]

I see undergraduate as a necessity. But more for a stepping stone. I went, planing to go to med school. Feel in love, got married to a guy who was on track for certain career. Got a liberals arts degree that qualified me to do nothing. We both graduated. He got a decent job, then a few years later, things changed in the industry. and we were going to have to move out of state.

He went to med school, I needed to do something, so I applied and went to law school. We are doing great, but we needed those undergrad degrees.

 

[gracie1]

I did not get a college degree. I have been at my job for almost 11 years. I am a Business Manager and in charge of everything financial (payroll, accounts payable, HR, accounting, etc) Do I oversee the departments?? Absolutely not. I am the one who does it all. So no, you do not need a degree. But you have to be willing to learn from the workplace. I go to seminars every now and then.

I did not have the funds to go to college, and my parents could not afford to send me. I refused to take student loans. I took a few classes because I wanted to be a nurse, but again, financially I couldn't afford it.

So in my eyes, no you do not need to have a degree to do higher up positions.

 

[honeydiane1953]

College, college, college. Plain and simple.

 

[Colleen27]

I think having a plan is more important than having a degree, especially if student loans are going to be part of the picture. A "general studies" degree isn't likely to be worth the paper it is printed on these days, much less worth paying interest on for many years. Right now we're turning out more college grads than there are positions that require degrees, and it is starting to show in the overall value of a degree.

If she knows what she wants to do and it is a field where education is required or beneficial, she should go to college. If she doesn't know what she wants to do, she should take some time to get a taste of the working world and figure that our before she starts laying out 5-figure payments to a university. And if she wants to go into a field where vocational/tech school is more appropriate preparation, she should be investigating her options for obtaining specialized training.

I went to college right out of high school, but I wasn't ready then. College is a lot of work for someone who doesn't see any benefit to it, and that's where I was at. The college I went to (I followed the money rather than my interests) doesn't even have a program in the one field I was leaning towards, and the campus culture couldn't have been a worse fit for me. I dropped out after one unsuccessful year and enrolled in an IT training program through a local CC that made me very good money for my age in very short order (18mo program that I condensed into one year).

Later I went back an earned a 2 year general studies degree, looking ahead to transfer, but I just can't justify the money (loans) it will take to finish considering that unless I'm willing to relocate I'm not likely to find work in either of the fields I'm drawn to (education and social work/social sciences). I don't want to end up like so many of my friends, working retail or secretarial jobs to pay off student loans for a degree that is functionally useless in the current job market, particularly since there's no economic imperative for me to work right now. I'd resent having to give up being a SAHM to pay off student loan debt that didn't benefit me in the least.

 

[Colleen27]

I think for a "professional" white collar job, a college degree is necessary. HOWEVER, an expensive one isn't. If you can't get into a top 100 school, don't bother paying more than $10k a year for college (maybe a little more by the time you add rooms and board).

That's going to vary from place to place, though, based on how your state funds education. The cost of attendance at the local community college in my area just crossed the 10k threshold, and the local (second-tier public) universities are up over 20k.

 

[Michelle and crew]

I did not get a college degree. I have been at my job for almost 11 years. I am a Business Manager and in charge of everything financial (payroll, accounts payable, HR, accounting, etc) Do I oversee the departments?? Absolutely not. I am the one who does it all. So no, you do not need a degree. But you have to be willing to learn from the workplace. I go to seminars every now and then.

I did not have the funds to go to college, and my parents could not afford to send me. I refused to take student loans. I took a few classes because I wanted to be a nurse, but again, financially I couldn't afford it.

So in my eyes, no you do not need to have a degree to do higher up positions.

Unfortunately, the job market is glutted with people with degrees. The last casemanager I hired was picked from 300 resumes including 18 phds.

 

[LuLuO]

I wish I had gone to some sort of college right out of high school. Instead I followed a guy across the country. Boy do I wish I could go back in time and talk some sense into Younger Me.

I am 34 now and I'm still a few classes short on a 2 year degree. Life has just gotten in the way a few too many times. I'm facing returning to the workforce in the next few years and I know that my options are limited. The real bummer is that even if I finish my degree in the graphic design field, I would be competing with people who are 10-15 years younger than me who have a bachelors or higher.

I don't have many regrets because everything I have done has brought me to my life today and I have a wonderful husband and two beautiful kids. However, the one thing I truly regret is not having a college degree. I know it has hurt my earning power and has hindered advancement opportunities and now having SAHM on my resume so-to-speak won't help either.

 

[PrincessBelle09]

I am a college senior. My DH graduated in May and finding a "real" job has been very difficult. The market is currently so flooded that, on top of a four year degree, job applicants need a masters or 5-7 years experience for the jobs that would normally be considered entry-level. With such a high rate of unemployment, employers can afford to especially choosy which does not bode well for the young who have little to no actual work experience and it is almost impossible right now to get a worthwhile job without at least an undergraduate education.

My advice as someone who is very familiar with what your DD may be facing career-wise is to go for the four year degree. Statistically, she'll end up making more money. A four year degree, regardless of what it is in, will make her more attractive to employers. Since she wants to go to college, even the job market is still crummy when she graduates in five years, she will be able to go to grad school and better her chances of future employment and earnings. A bachelors degree is essentially today's equivalent of a high school diploma.

Also, when considering the expense, do research on what she may qualify for in terms of need-based financial aid and scholarships. Many schools also offer work-study positions in place of loans. I would definitely not knock the four year degree because of the upfront costs. And, as I believe someone mentioned, CC credits do not always transfer as one thinks they will and she may lose a lot of valuable time.

 

[Cindy B]

Here's the story of my 20 year plan: I graduated from high school and went immediately to a community college. I am the first generation to go to college in my family-- in fact my father looked at me like I had three heads when I told him that I wanted to go to college when I was a senior in high school.. Since they didn't officially "approve", I did all the college planning myself.

I also was an independent minor child so I was working full time at age 17/18 and went to classes after working. I couldn't keep that up so after 30 credits or so, I stopped... got married had kid s, mortgage, the whole nine yards.

At age 33, I knew I had to finish. I went to another community college and got my associates in pretty short order. I took many courses in the accelerated format (3-4 week classes, 5 days a week) . I took courses over breaks and finished up while still working full time.

then I transferred to a university to a dual- which turned to a triple major program. Due to all my community college courses, I was able transfer seamlessly into the university as a MID JUNIOR. So yes, I was able to complete my two bachelors degrees in short oder. I went full time in 2007 and graduated (with the two majors) by June 2008 for one and December 2008 for the other --had to student teach which added another semester.

I carefully planned all my courses with the community college. My community college had a dual agreement with the university so I paid only $300 for one course that would usually cost $1100. In fact one of my courses (held at the community college) had the university professor and even used the university syllabus. -- I loved saving 800 dollars per course.

My state has a website www.njtransfer.org which lists the transfer requirements either into/out of for courses.

In order to obtain my teaching certifications, I also was able to take courses at the community college even after I obtained my Bachelors.. why should I pay a post graduate rate for an Adolescent Psychology course when I got it for $300 at the community college? Adolescent Psychology was the same either place (see dual agreement above) so I saved so much there.

My DH got his entire education paid for by his employer. He got his associates in an amazing short order (four =five classes at a time, accelerated 3 week classes) with an amazing GPA. He got a great education at the community college -- and got accepted quickly into an economics program at the university. Mind you at this time he was working full time and caring for his terminally ill parent at the same time. ..

So for a while both of us were in school full time, working full time and juggling parenting, family crisises, and other items. If it wasnt' for the community college, we could not have completed any of our goals.

 

[shortbun]

Why not check into Americorp? There are also orgs in large cities call Cityyear or Citycorp. These plans put teens to work/volunteering with minimal pay or room and board and many provide one year tuition after a year's involvement. It matures them and that's so worth it. My girlfriend's son worked for the mayor's office in NYC passing out blankets, energy bars and condoms to homeless teens. He's now an attorney working internationally for an embassy.

 

[mistysue]

I am a college senior. My DH graduated in May and finding a "real" job has been very difficult. The market is currently so flooded that, on top of a four year degree, job applicants need a masters or 5-7 years experience for the jobs that would normally be considered entry-level. With such a high rate of unemployment, employers can afford to especially choosy which does not bode well for the young who have little to no actual work experience and it is almost impossible right now to get a worthwhile job without at least an undergraduate education.

My advice as someone who is very familiar with what your DD may be facing career-wise is to go for the four year degree. Statistically, she'll end up making more money. A four year degree, regardless of what it is in, will make her more attractive to employers.

See, this sort of story is exactly why I question if college is such a great idea right now. I know I don't have a popular view- but last year I went to my 10 year reunion and the ones who had gotten anywhere were the ones who did NOT finish college. (except the few who had to leave the country to get a job) They got out, got into the working world and are now managing the people who waited another 2-4 years to finish their degree. If you look at people from the year of my sister, 6 years ahead of me- those people got out of college, were welcomed into the working world with jobs and their degrees actually did something for them.

At least in my age group, it really seems to be job experience, not a degree, that is making a difference. I wonder if the statistic for how much people make with vs. without a degree would still be the same if they limited the age group.
The people I went to high school with (and some even a couple years ahead of me) who have master's degrees- can't get work in their fields and are being turned away from less precise jobs and told they are over-qualified. Maybe it really is just the timing of how the years happened, but people my year got totally screwed. These people were finishing their bachelor's degrees in 2003, and here it is 7 years later- still never using the degree. By the time the job market picks up, their degrees will be so old and unused it will be like they didn't have it in the first place and they will still have no experience.

Just for reference, I went to private schools, so we are talking about a population where 100% were accepted into colleges leaving HS, all were expected to and most graduated college and there are generations of success in their genes. These are the people who usually just are over achievers and get places. They now are answering phones, making lattes and checking you out at Target while a college degree hangs on their wall at home.

 

[Michelle and crew]

Why not check into Americorp? There are also orgs in large cities call Cityyear or Citycorp. These plans put teens to work/volunteering with minimal pay or room and board and many provide one year tuition after a year's involvement. It matures them and that's so worth it. My girlfriend's son worked for the mayor's office in NYC passing out blankets, energy bars and condoms to homeless teens. He's now an attorney working internationally for an embassy.

Indentured servants. We've had many of them come through. Nice kids, some went on to school, and some didn't.

 

[dvcgirl]

It sounds like community college would be a good fit here. CC is a great place for kids who aren't quite sure what they'd like to major in.....they can get a lot of pre-reqs out of the way. CC is also a good place for more focused kids who simply don't have the cash to afford a four year school yet.

I think that some kids simply aren't "college material", but I think that Community College is a great place to send the kid to figure that out. If it turns out that college isn't for this kid, then only a small amount of money is lost.

But it's surely worth looking into college. Check out the unemployment rate for college grads vs. uneducated employees. The overall rate is 9.6%, the rate for college grads is 4.9%.... So, I think that's saying something.

 

[crisi]

That's going to vary from place to place, though, based on how your state funds education. The cost of attendance at the local community college in my area just crossed the 10k threshold, and the local (second-tier public) universities are up over 20k.

But, as I've pointed out before, out of state tuition in North Dakota is under $10k at a state school. Granted you have to go to school in a state few people want to spend four years in. But there are colleges out there that you can go to school at for "reasonable" amounts of money.

 

[tammymacb]

Here's my experience.

I'm an RN. I went to a community college and paid cash for my education so I never had a penny in school debt.

Last year, in the worst economy ever, I brought home just less than 6 figures. I work overtime every week ( by choice - not mandatory- but it pays for my travel ) I have full insurance, a 401 K and a nice home.

You don't HAVE to have an expensive degree to earn a living.

Also- I do have friends who got a nursing degree from a 4 year school like College of Charleston. They have a bachelors while I have an associates degree. In this area, they don't make a cent more per hour than I do and they have large student loans to pay off.

 

[Cindy B]

See, this sort of story is exactly why I question if college is such a great idea right now. I know I don't have a popular view- but last year I went to my 10 year reunion and the ones who had gotten anywhere were the ones who did NOT finish college. (except the few who had to leave the country to get a job) They got out, got into the working world and are now managing the people who waited another 2-4 years to finish their degree. If you look at people from the year of my sister, 6 years ahead of me- those people got out of college, were welcomed into the working world with jobs and their degrees actually did something for them.

At least in my age group, it really seems to be job experience, not a degree, that is making a difference. I wonder if the statistic for how much people make with vs. without a degree would still be the same if they limited the age group.
Just for reference, I went to private schools, so we are talking about a population where 100% were accepted into colleges leaving HS, all were expected to and most graduated college and there are generations of success in their genes. These are the people who usually just are over achievers and get places. They now are answering phones, making lattes and checking you out at Target while a college degree hangs on their wall at home.

I will say that this economy and the region you live in does effect the types of jobs available. It may seem that the non graduates are "sucessful" but in terms of marketability outside of their current job, it will be a battle to find any new position.

My current position has many many people (85% or more) that have no college experience of any kind. They make decent money however, they have a very distinct "niche" that does not promote growth outside of this business sector. Many new hires -myself included- now require a degree for this position. If my current industry ever lays off or reduces the workforce there will be thousands of people with limited education looking for jobs in the 65-75K range with either a high school diploma or GED. These individuals will never find anything. The limited skill set as well as a lack of education will bar these individuals into finding meaningful work. There is a HUGE divide between the have's (degrees) and have nots (high school grads). The high school grads are insanely jealous of the degreed individuals. I can't tell you how many people told me to my face "you don't deserve your position. You only got it because of your piece of paper."

My new position requires a degree, a masters is preferred but a bachelors is great. Not only am I starting higher than my current position, I have more time off and doing what my degrees and certification are in. It is a more professional mindset. I needed the professional mindset.

There are studies and statistics out there that say the average lifetime salary of a degreed professional and a non degreed professional. Sure some degreed professional do wind up working as a waitress or at Starbucks. (my friend is aprime example, she has a degree and waitressed at a 5 star resort restaurant.. she made almost 50K her last year working there).

You can't take the degrees away once you earn them. It is another block on an application or a resume. It is necessary in this job force.

 

[marie1203]

Just because you get a college degree doesn't mean you are going to be successful but it does mean you will have advantage over jobs. We use to hire about 12 people every season and people that got a college degree got preference. It didn't matter if the degree was in something else we notice there is a big difference between college graduates and those that didn't have a degree. I think the big question is if your daughter is ready for college? As many said before if she is not ready or doesn't want to do it then it is not going to work out. She can always go to college later even though it is a little harder.

 

[eliza61]

Unfortunately, the job market is glutted with people with degrees. The last casemanager I hired was picked from 300 resumes including 18 phds.

But unfortunately also a lot of blue collar jobs (policeman, fireman) are using college degrees to weed out applicates. Many township police departments require a 2 year degree before you are even able to take the test. I believe many gov't jobs (fbi, cia, etc) are also becoming like that.

This is my general feeling and pretty much what I tell my kids. Remember I said general, I know for every situation there are exemptions.

1) It is much easier to finish school now while you are young and don't have alot of financial pressures as opposed to when you are older, paying bills, married etc.

2) College will offer you a lot of experiences and choices. depending on your degree it can open up doors not available to non college degreed applicants.

3) All colleges do not have to be crazy expensive.

I will be totally honest and say, pretty much since my kids have started school we have stressed the importance of a college education. One of my kids has aspergers and is learning disabled and we are sending him to college. We never really gave them a choice, we pretty much have pitched it as a forgone conclusion. I guess if one of them came to us and said they didn't want to go we'd discuss it but so far they all expect to go to college.