Civil Suit Against Disney!!!

[raidermatt]

Does that guy have sock garters on?

 

[Chuck S]

You pull out a picture from a time when cars didn't have seat belts, when smoking was considered a heathly way of losing weight, when lard was part of a good diet, and the color of your skin indicated your intelligence - and that proves 'Mission: Space' is safe?

Good god.

Drop the silliness. Take a real look at the demographics of guests at carnival and thrill parks - then compare them against Disney's numbers. Then take a look at the absolute number of guests going through each park. It's simple math and simple statistics - Disney places more guests "at risk" than carny rides do.

P.S. - I don't see a four year old in the picture. Nor do I see a sixty year old. Nor do I see people undergoing 2+ Gs. Nor do I see an enclosed cabin. Nor do I see that the guests are unable to signal someone to stop the ride. In fact, the mere fact the picture even exists shows that it would have easier to spot an unconcisous child in this attraction than on 'Mission: Space' - so you've actually PROVEN this barrel ride is a safer ride than Disney's latest.

Thank you.

Actually, the folks in the picture would almost have to be going through greater than 2Gs. 1G would not stick you to the wall enough to overcome 1G downward pull from the earth. For instance, if the force were an upward 1G force, you would be weightless, but not stuck to the ceiling. 1G upward pull would simply cancel out the 1G downward pull of the earth, not be a greater force. 1G could not stick you to a wall enough to prevent you from falling when the floor dropped away.

 

[rocketriter]

You folks are all making good arguments on both sides of the issue. Nobody is being silly. And you can bet that the attorneys on both sides of the issue will attempt similar arguments in the courtroom. I'm not going to try to figure out who'll win the case based on this discussion. But I'll be very interested in the verdict and the legal arguments behind it.

 

[mjstaceyuofm]

You pull out a picture from a time when cars didn't have seat belts, when smoking was considered a heathly way of losing weight, when lard was part of a good diet, and the color of your skin indicated your intelligence - and that proves 'Mission: Space' is safe?

Good god.

Drop the silliness. Take a real look at the demographics of guests at carnival and thrill parks - then compare them against Disney's numbers. Then take a look at the absolute number of guests going through each park. It's simple math and simple statistics - Disney places more guests "at risk" than carny rides do.

P.S. - I don't see a four year old in the picture. Nor do I see a sixty year old. Nor do I see people undergoing 2+ Gs. Nor do I see an enclosed cabin. Nor do I see that the guests are unable to signal someone to stop the ride. In fact, the mere fact the picture even exists shows that it would have easier to spot an unconcisous child in this attraction than on 'Mission: Space' - so you've actually PROVEN this barrel ride is a safer ride than Disney's latest.

Thank you.

I forgot that yours was the only opinion that matters on this board and that you're the only one who can be right....

When I look at that picture, I DO see an older gentlemen in his 50's or 60's (that guy wearing the sock garters ) standing next to a girl that looks 4 or 5. I have a 4.5 YO - looks about the same height to me. That looks like a "broad" range to me. And with the picture you painted above, people were in such ill health back then that they all should've keeled over after riding this carney ride (probably operated by a toothless Joe nonetheless who had less than a high school education). And I'm sure that when something did happen, that carney ride had all the safeguards of a Disney attraction.

Take a real look at the demographics of guests at carnival and thrill parks - then compare them against Disney's numbers.

Again, I think you're wrong on the numbers. Show me the numbers and I may believe you, but right now neither of us has thrown out any hard facts or numbers. Mine is conjecture and I can admit it, but yours is to be taken as the almighty truth. I am specifically talking about ONE attraction - M:S - that you, via the many posts I've read from you, has low ridership numbers in a park (Epcot) that barely is attended.

I really do respect your opinion and insight on 99.99% things Disney. I've resigned myself to the fact that we'll agree to disagree on this matter.

 

[MJMcBride]

Nobody is saying that the ride should be knocking off people left and right, but it does get more than its share of complaints. If there was a design defect or if they were negligently monitoring the riders , then all you need is 1 person with an unknown heart problem and you've got negligence, proximate cause, and damages. It does not matter that the ride only hurts 1 in a million riders. If there is negligence its negligence.

And I hate agreeing with AnotherVoice.

 

[ChrisFL]

Interesting the point made about riders not being able to shut down the ride in an emergency...I never thought about that.

However, I have thought about the previous postings regarding the gravitron ride vs. mission space and sickness of riders...in a gravitron, you are looking at what's really happening, you see everything spinning as it should and your mind reacts correctly to that stimuli...on mission space, your body is going in one direction, but your eyes are telling you something else, then you're supposed to push buttons and hold a joystick, so your eyes move a bit, changing your focus and potentially your mind out of whack.

I've heard of similar problems with basic flight simulators in testing (like Star Tours) where the screen didn't match the movements of the ride vehicle and people got sick that way too.

 

[Sonno]

Check out this carnival ride.

AV - as always you have a lot of good points. I just think you're flat out wrong on this one.

I remember riding on a ride like that when I was a kid (and I'm only 31). It was called "The Black Hole". It was just a big round spinny thing where you stood up against the wall. It spun around a bit and then the floor dropped out from under you. It was the predecesor to the modern day "Gravitron", but with much much less G-force (or should I say spinning velocity or centrifical force).

 

[raidermatt]

Again, I think you're wrong on the numbers.

You know darn well that nobody who is willing to post them actually has those numbers. Really though, if we can't agree that Walt Disney World, the largest vacation resort in the world, draws at least a somewhat different crowd with different expectations than a travelling carnival, I'm not sure what else to say on the matter.

If we can't accept that Disney has different demographics than carnivals, and we don't believe that M:S is any more intense physically and visually than the other rides mentioned, then that means the deaths are essentially coincidental.

Could be.

But again, how can you not be at least suspicious of the situation when Disney was taken by surprise by the number of guests who became nausous and needed medical attention? If their testing really was that thorough, don't you think they would have known what to expect in that regard?

I'm not willing to condemn them just based on that point, but there's no way an unbiased person who does not have all the data (as we do not) can justify an opinion that the claims against Disney are baseless.

 

[Chuck S]

If we can't accept that Disney has different demographics than carnivals, and we don't believe that M:S is any more intense physically and visually than the other rides mentioned, then that means the deaths are essentially coincidental.

Disney does have different demographics than traveling carnivals. My point, however, was that not all the rotor/graviton type rides are limited to traveling carnivals. Some are installed permanently (at least as permanently as a theme park can be) in theme parks and amusement parks around the country that do draw demograpics quit similar to Disney. Grandparents also take their grandkids to local amusement parks like Six Flags, Kennywood and Cedar Point...so saying that the comparison is "carnival ride" to permanent installation is not completely accurate.

 

[DancingBear]

It has been pointed out in the media that, since these attractions are unregulated in FL, the lawsuit is the only way that the plaintiffs can dig into the records here and see if there are any smoking guns in the Disney files.

For example, in the McDonalds hot coffee case which is often cited as an example of litigation run amok, the plaintiffs were able to demonstrate that not only did McDonalds serve its coffee hotter than the rest of the industry, but that McD's had internal memos showing that it knew that this created a risk of burns, and that its purported reason for serving the hotter coffee (because its drive-through customers didn't drink in the car, but took the coffee to their destination and drank it there) was bogus (McD's own customer research showed the opposite was true).

That's the big unknown for all of us here.

 

[MJMcBride]

It has been pointed out in the media that, since these attractions are unregulated in FL, the lawsuit is the only way that the plaintiffs can dig into the records here and see if there are any smoking guns in the Disney files.

For example, in the McDonalds hot coffee case which is often cited as an example of litigation run amok, the plaintiffs were able to demonstrate that not only did McDonalds serve its coffee hotter than the rest of the industry, but that McD's had internal memos showing that it knew that this created a risk of burns, and that its purported reason for serving the hotter coffee (because its drive-through customers didn't drink in the car, but took the coffee to their destination and drank it there) was bogus (McD's own customer research showed the opposite was true).

That's the big unknown for all of us here.

Another interesting thing about that case that no one seems to remebers is that the person had 2nd and 3rd degree burns as well as permanent scarring. You should not get that from hot coffee.

 

[mjstaceyuofm]

You know darn well that nobody who is willing to post them actually has those numbers. Really though, if we can't agree that Walt Disney World, the largest vacation resort in the world, draws at least a somewhat different crowd with different expectations than a travelling carnival, I'm not sure what else to say on the matter.

If we can't accept that Disney has different demographics than carnivals, and we don't believe that M:S is any more intense physically and visually than the other rides mentioned, then that means the deaths are essentially coincidental.

Could be.

But again, how can you not be at least suspicious of the situation when Disney was taken by surprise by the number of guests who became nausous and needed medical attention? If their testing really was that thorough, don't you think they would have known what to expect in that regard?

I'm not willing to condemn them just based on that point, but there's no way an unbiased person who does not have all the data (as we do not) can justify an opinion that the claims against Disney are baseless.

They do draw a different crowd, I can concede that point. But AV contradicted himself by saying that carnivals attract a more healthy crowd - or a crowd that was better prepared to ride a G-force type ride. He later stated all carnival attendees are smokers, eat lard and are generally of ill health and shouldn't be riding those rides.

My point about the numbers was that AV was comparing ALL of WDW's numbers to the various carnivals and other permanent venues that have Gravitrons/Rotors in operation. I think we should be looking at Epcot and specifically M:S. If you look at ridership of this particular ride, I'd think you'd find that WDW is exposing a much smaller segment of their audience to this ride.

Based on the evidence released in the autopsy report regarding the little boys death, he would have died on a Rotor type ride too.

But again, how can you not be at least suspicious of the situation when Disney was taken by surprise by the number of guests who became nausous and needed medical attention?

Easy - here's my explanation: My guess is that they totally underestimated the common sense of the average person in the new millenium to heed the warnings. This is a new ride and a new experience. There is a definite learning curve. My wife rode it and was green for hours afterward. She does get motion sickness on rides like Star Tours and Body Wars, but had no idea how her body would react on this type of ride as she is fine on rollercoasters, planes, etc.... She tried it and paid the consequences - never again for her.

The technology in use on rides like Star Tours has been around for a while. People know what to expect. M:S has been around for a very short duration and exists in no other form except for in labs at NASA and various nations air forces and space programs. People are testing the waters with this ride - rightly or wrongly so.

 

[Tink's Tormentor]

Here is how the ride works:

Disney asks the guests to keep their head on the back of their seat and looking forward at the screen at all times... thus aligning their inner ear with the spinning motion.. This takes away the feeling of spinning while on the ride. However, if you lean forward and turn your head side to side you break up this alignment and your body becomes disoriented about what is going on causing you to get dizzy and and possibly sick.

Now, let's take how Disney markets this ride.... Watch the commercials.. You see kidson the ride, laughing, having fun.. looking around the cabin, leaning forward, looking at each other... totally opposite of what you need to do on this ride... When a child sees this commercial, they get psyched for the ride.. When an adult sees this commercial, they see a portrayal of this ride as being the same as an interactive video game.... All the time no disclaimer statng that this is promotial and not the way you should behave on that ride... Just as the auto companies state in their commercials that the cars and drivers are on closed roads with professionals behind the wheel and that someone shouldn't be performing these driving stunts on the open road...

Now, before you say this is crazy and that Disney does warn you, the question is, when does Disney warn you? When it is too late... When you already booked your 4000 dollar vacation.. When you are standing on line thinking OHH SPLASH MOUNTAIN HAS THE SAME WARNING SIGNS... AFTER ALL DISNEY DOES SHOW KIDS LAUGHING AND PLAYING AROUND ON THE ATTRACTION HOW BAD CAN IT BE?? And if you don't think this is how people feel about the ride, you are mistaken... And let's not even get into that these people should read the internet and guide books.. Fact is not everyone has the internet and not everyone is going to run to Barnes N Nobles just to buy a guide book.. When is the first time the person gets the facts about MS?? When in Epcot....

I know people do not go to Disney just to ride MS... but this is an experience that people want to have.. By showcasing the ride as Disney does in the commercials, people are expecting the same experience... when in fact, we all know, it is not this fun and games attraction.... Does this make Disney negligent, NO!!!! but they need to rethink how they market this ride....

Now, as for this lawsuit... I am going to wait until I know more info before I say BRING IT ON or DROP THIS LIKE A BAD HABIT... But, i do think this family will walk away with money....

 

[Tink's Tormentor]

Based on the evidence released in the autopsy report regarding the little boys death, he would have died on a Rotor type ride too.

He COULD have.. not certain he WOULD have..

Easy - here's my explanation: My guess is that they totally underestimated the common sense of the average person in the new millenium to heed the warnings. This is a new ride and a new experience. There is a definite learning curve.

Ok, let me get this straight... You say this is totally new ride technology and that there is a learning curve, for Disney... But, the only thing Disney miscalculated were common sense of the guests... Since this is new ride technology and since there is this learning curve, wouldn't you be able to assume Disney may have miscalcuated the affects???? No not according to you.. Disney is packed with genuises that never make mistakes.. but the guests are total morons... Fact is, Disney built a ride that not the average person understands how this works and the affects it could have.. heck, i venture to guess Disney didn't even know much about the inner workings and the affects on the body..... So, since there is a learning curve, it is ok for Disney and MS to knock off a few guests so they can get it right????

The technology in use on rides like Star Tours has been around for a while. People know what to expect. M:S has been around for a very short duration and exists in no other form except for in labs at NASA and various nations air forces and space programs. People are testing the waters with this ride - rightly or wrongly so.

And the people in NASA are trained for years to withstand G's... A normal guest to Disney is not... Disney shouold not be opening a ride if they are just TESTING THE WATERS.. again, you make it seem like it is OK for Disney to open this ride, kill off a few people just so they can get it right.... This is gross negligence... If fact, Disnye never should have opened this ride at all... since Disney is still just testing the waters, and well, they would then not know the true affects...

 

[pugdog]

Maybe it's just that Disney doesn't want to spend much money in the MInnesota market, but I have never seen a MS commercial. Lot's of seeing the family run all around WDW but never a MS one.
The only time I have seen them was when I'm down at WDW.

 

[Cor44432]

"Nor do I see that the guests are unable to signal someone to stop the ride."

Which Disney thrillers can a guest signal to stop a ride?? Space Mtn,
Big Thunder? Rock-n- Roller coaster??? I mean, if someone is having a
heart attack on Space mountain, wouldn't it be faster to let the ride cycle
through than signal someone to stop it??

Millions of people have experienced M:S, not one has died due to the ride
malfunctioning or ride experience by itself.....I'll take those odds.

 

[mjstaceyuofm]

And the people in NASA are trained for years to withstand G's... A normal guest to Disney is not... Disney shouold not be opening a ride if they are just TESTING THE WATERS..

People don't "train" to be tolerant of g-forces. Your body can either handle them or not. Yes, physical fitness has some degree of input on the ability of a body to handle g-forces, but if you get sick on a ride like this, you get sick. It's hard to "train" your body to not be sick. That's why it's so difficult to become a test-pilot or astronaut.

Read my post a little closer - I said people, as in guests, were testing the waters with this ride - NOT Disney. I provided a clear example as was the case with my wife. Please don't put words in my mouth. If you've never experienced an attraction like this, how are you to know how your body will react without trying it? Disney did their due-diligence with testing and research - I would bet a lot of money on that fact. They knew that if you get sick on spinning type rides, or in enclosed spaces, etc. this is not the ride for you and tell you NOT to ride it. The ride was developed with assistance from NASA. Those people are pretty smart. My college roommate earned his bachelors and masters degree in Aerospace Engineering from the University of Michigan and later received his PhD in Aerospace from UC Berkely. He works for NASA and is pretty darn smart. I've met some of his co-workers - they're pretty smart too. I'd say that Disney was pretty confident of the product they were putting out there.

 

[mjstaceyuofm]

Fact is, Disney built a ride that not the average person understands how this works and the affects it could have

So.... you're stating that when people watch that pre-show video in M:S SHOWING the pods going around in a circle, they don't understand that they'll be spinning in circles? I thought it was clear as sunshine. But obviously, I'm not one of those total morons...

No not according to you.. Disney is packed with genuises that never make mistakes.. but the guests are total morons...

Again, more words in my mouth. Not appreciated..... I never called Disney guests morons.

 

[dbm20th]

Disney asks the guests to keep their head on the back of their seat and looking forward at the screen at all times... thus aligning their inner ear with the spinning motion.. This takes away the feeling of spinning while on the ride. However, if you lean forward and turn your head side to side you break up this alignment and your body becomes disoriented about what is going on causing you to get dizzy and and possibly sick.

Which sounds like the teacher in Charlie Brown to a group full of cheerleaders are Pop Warner darlings, and even less to someone who speaks Swahili. If these instructions are needed to reduce a risk, that's negligence.

 

[MJMcBride]

They knew that if you get sick on spinning type rides, or in enclosed spaces, etc. this is not the ride for you and tell you NOT to ride it.

The fact that the ride cause nausea or is claustrophobic has nothing to do with undiagnosed heart problems.