Church says girl's communion not valid

[phillybeth]

Originally posted by tonyswife
Well...what else could it be? I mean, can anybody make anything up and call it the word of God?

How about the books that were taken out of the bible over the centuries, or the books that are in some bibles and not others? Who decided that they are or are not the words of God?

 

[tonyswife]

Originally posted by phillybeth


How about the books that were taken out of the bible over the centuries, or the books that are in some bibles and not others? Who decided that they are or are not the words of God?

I have no idea, LOL. This is kind of what I was getting at. The wheat thing seems like such a non-issue in the face of the RCCs other transgressions.

 

[beattyfamily]

Originally posted by septbride2002
This is a quote by Dan Brown, and one that I found very interesting.

The fact of the matter is that the Bible is a one sided story and an incomplete one at that. The Catholic Church went about and destroyed hundreds of documents that disagreeded with their beliefs. Some of those documents survived - the Dead Sea Scrolls being an example. There are hundreds of stories of Jesus - the majority of them did not make into the bible.

There is fact and fiction in the bible and I think the sooner people accept that the sooner we will have a better understanding of God. Fact: Jesus was not born in December. Now is this an imporant fact - yes and no. Some of the biggest Catholic celebrations take place over what is considered the date of Christ birth. However if you know history then you would know that this date was chosen so as to help conform Pagans to Christinanity and ignore the winter soltice (sp?). This one simple Fact just goes to show that the Catholic Church CHANGED things to help conform beliefs.

Now in regards to this little girl - it is my honest opinion that the Catholic Church has a lot bigger problems then wheat within their religion. Obviously they don't seem to think they need to acknowledge that their faith has some serious issues, but rather concentrate on pathetic instances as this one. I'm sure God is up there rolling his/her eyes and thinking "Ya gotta be kidding me?" But it is due to these types of issues that more and more people are turning their back on the Catholic faith.

~Amanda

See now this is what I meant by 'bash away' in my previous post. I don't know what the point is in even responding to you as you obviously hold bitterness toward the Catholic Church...but I cannot help myself and I'm sure I'll regret it but what the heck!

I, and many people I know, are not turning our backs on our faith. I LOVE my Church and chose become Catholic as an adult.

To me this is not a 'pathetic instance' that the Church is concentrating on. It's a serious instance. To us, as has been mentioned many times, Communion is the Body and Blood of Jesus and not just a symbol so it is serious. Somthing we hold very precious.

The Church did choose the date of Christmas since they didn't know when Christ was born for the reasons you mentioned, so what?

Regarding the OP, they had a choice to have wine instead but chose to go to another Church that went against the Church's doctrine by giving a rice wafer. They made this a controversy.

I really wish people would do a little research into why the Church feels the way it does about things and why we have these rules and doctrines before they judge and insult us. I don't mind debating with someone who knows the "whys" but just doesn't agree with the the Church or me...but what's the point in debating with those who judge and jump in when they don't even know why we have these rules and doctrines and who seem so bitter and angry...

Oh well, as you can see from my countdown, I only have a few more hours before my first Summer and girls-only trip so this might have to be my last post....

 

[septbride2002]

Did you really get bitterness out of my post? If so that wasn't at all what I was trying to convey.

The Church did choose the date of Christmas since they didn't know when Christ was born for the reasons you mentioned, so what?

So what? Well the fact is they know Jesus was born sometime in the Spring - you don't find it somewhat controversial that the Church would choose a date so obviously in the winter just to force pagans to conform?

I was brought up Catholic, and I understand the beliefs 3 days a week in church, 7 years of Catholic school, and several more years of just Church on Sundays will teach you a few things. And yes I understand that this is a serious thing - however, I also believe that the church can bend and change with time. For instance the no meat on Fridays during Lent does not have to be followed by children under a certain age (it was 5 in our parish) and pregnant women. If they can make that adjustment why can they not make the adjustment for the girl?

The only reason I get bitter towards the Catholic Church over issues such as these is because I truly believe the church has bigger worries. Have you ever sat down for dinner with a priest only to learn later that your family were at risk of a pedophile? I have - and it is not a pleasant feeling - and then to find out that the Church that you have TRUSTED has helped hide the crimes that the priest had committed and continually put this priest in the presence of children? No? Well I have.

People are turning their backs on this faith. Not a single one of my friends that I went to Catholic School with are continuing to practice Catholicism. Maybe in your city it is different - but there is certainly a crisis of faith within my family and friends.

~Amanda

 

[auntpolly]

Originally posted by vacationman
For those who don't believe the Bible is the only true word of God and can haves new man-made rules added to it, check out these:

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

"Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you" (Deuteronomy 4:2).

"Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar" (Proverbs 30:6)

Too late - that's been done so much over time that we really don't have a clear idea of many things. You know of course, that Protestants went ahead and took even more books out of the Bible! I'm not saying that's bad. But it was done. And then there are the bad translations and the misinterpretations.....we've all decided what is and what is not important in the Bible, every one of us Christians. And we've all interpreted things the best we can, and that ends up being like 900 different ways (Methodists and Presbyterians don't even agree!) How dare anyone acuse Catholics of being the only ones to do things their own way!!!!

I have rarely been so stunned by the lack of openmindedness on this board. SOme of you are really making me feel that Protestants are very narrowminded about faith!

 

[septbride2002]

How dare anyone acuse Catholics of being the only ones to do things their own way!!!!

I will honestly admitt that I do not know much about any other religion besides the Catholic religion. Therefore I don't know if any other religion has removed and changed books.

However I do know that wars were waged and people in the millions were killed to help make the Catholic faith what it is today. History is written by the winners.



~Amanda

 

[beattyfamily]

Originally posted by septbride2002
Did you really get bitterness out of my post? If so that wasn't at all what I was trying to convey.



So what? Well the fact is they know Jesus was born sometime in the Spring - you don't find it somewhat controversial that the Church would choose a date so obviously in the winter just to force pagans to conform?

I was brought up Catholic, and I understand the beliefs 3 days a week in church, 7 years of Catholic school, and several more years of just Church on Sundays will teach you a few things. And yes I understand that this is a serious thing - however, I also believe that the church can bend and change with time. For instance the no meat on Fridays during Lent does not have to be followed by children under a certain age (it was 5 in our parish) and pregnant women. If they can make that adjustment why can they not make the adjustment for the girl?

The only reason I get bitter towards the Catholic Church over issues such as these is because I truly believe the church has bigger worries. Have you ever sat down for dinner with a priest only to learn later that your family were at risk of a pedophile? I have - and it is not a pleasant feeling - and then to find out that the Church that you have TRUSTED has helped hide the crimes that the priest had committed and continually put this priest in the presence of children? No? Well I have.

People are turning their backs on this faith. Not a single one of my friends that I went to Catholic School with are continuing to practice Catholicism. Maybe in your city it is different - but there is certainly a crisis of faith within my family and friends.

~Amanda

I certainly do read bitterness and anger in your post so I feel there's really no point in debating with you.

I love my Church and I know it is not perfect, but I still love it.

It doesn't bother me in the least that they picked December 25.

Meat on Fridays and fasting changes is SO very different than changing what our Communion wafer is made of! Not having to wear hats in Church is SO different than changing what the wine is made of!! The Communion is the cornerstone of our religion.

When I was talking about 'people' jumping in when they don't know the 'whys' I meant people in general, not you. I, too, have lots of experience in the Catholic faith...Sunday school and Catholic school for 6 years...RCIA as an adult.

I live right outside of Boston so I, too, know quite well about the abuse scandal. A priest in our Church who baptized myself and my DH was accused. But the sins of a few evil men (which the Church is now trying to rectify) will not sway my faith in my Church. Did I already say how much I do love my Church and all it's doctrines and traditions?? I love how it's 2000 years old and still going strong. Thankgoodness we have many Christian Churches to choose from for those who disagree with the Catholic Church. I could go on and on but I must finish packing.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

Can't we agree, bottom line, that all that matters is if you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior? That is the most important thing, since the only way to the Father is through the Son.

Each faith has its own doctrine, and we all try to find the one we are most comfortable with. I go to a non-denominational Christian church, but I am sure there are many that would not be comfortable with it. And that is fine. I found what works for me.

 

[auntpolly]

Originally posted by septbride2002
I will honestly admitt that I do not know much about any other religion besides the Catholic religion. Therefore I don't know if any other religion has removed and changed books.

However I do know that wars were waged and people in the millions were killed to help make the Catholic faith what it is today. History is written by the winners.



~Amanda

Who do you think the Catholics were? The Catholic Church used to be <i>everybody</i> -- all Christians, until the Reformation -- so most Christians have Catholics in their family tree whether they like it or not. Catholics removed books from the Bible -- no idea why. I've heard some spoke of reincarnation. Then Protestants removed more -- and changed translations. Protestants have less books and different translations than Catholics.

 

[auntpolly]

Originally posted by Miss Jasmine


Each faith has its own doctrine, and we all try to find the one we are most comfortable with. I go to a non-denominational Christian church, but I am sure there are many that would not be comfortable with it. And that is fine. I found what works for me.

Sounds good to me!

 

[WDWHound]

Originally posted by auntpolly
I have rarely been so stunned by the lack of openmindedness on this board. SOme of you are really making me feel that Protestants are very narrowminded about faith!

The problem is that we are both discussing something very important to us (the most important thing in fact). As Christians, it is sometimes hard to agree to disagree when we are discussing someting like access to Communion. It can and should engender discussion as we are all called by God to speak the truth about him, but we must acknowledge that we dont all agree on what the truth is. The trick is to do that respectfully and I do feel that some here have crossed that line.

Also, remember that for years the Catholic church told Protestants that we are not Christians. As you know, It still excludes us from many of its sacremnts for the reasons discussed on this thread. I understand there are reasons for this, but it can give the inaccurate impression that the Catholic church is trying to be an exclusive club, and this may be the source of some of the comments you have seen here.

Please do not get the impression that Protestants are narrowminded. Understand that it is almost inconcievable to us to restrict access to something as important as Communion because we to equate this as restricting access to Christ (even though that is clearly not what the catholic church is trying to do), and therefore our emotions sometimes come into play.

As for myself, I am trying very hard to communicate respectfully. You never did tell me if I insulted you, but I am trying to listen and understand both sides of this.

 

[Lisa F]

I'm not Catholic or even Christian but it always distresses me when people feel like their own particular way of looking at the world is the ONLY way to look at the world. Someone on another list of mine posted a link to the MSNBC article about this and immediately I realized the reason why it seemed like the RCC was splitting hairs was the transubstantiation issue. I don't know, it just made perfect sense to me that if the wafer IS the body and if the wine IS the blood that you can't just go substituting something else. IMO if the church had been a sect that believes that these things are symbolic then YES, it would have been petty... BUT the POV expressed by the RCC is IMO really a pretty logical conclusion to the basic assumptions made by the RCC.

If you question those basic assumptions then you have something which is no longer the RCC (ie protestantism) and IMO, that's okay too... but you can't have it both ways. You can't disbelieve something so basic to the RCC value system and then want to be a Catholic. It doesn't work that way. If you do not believe in this most basic part of Catholicism then perhaps you should find a religious affiliation that DOES fit your ideas.

Now I'm not saying that nothing should ever be questioned in religion. I'm not saying that I don't think the Catholic church couldn't stand to make a ton of reforms on a number of issues. OTOH, I think all of that is COMPLETELY irrelevant to the issue at hand. IMO, the question of whether the wafer is actually the body of Christ is a matter of faith. Either you believe it is and you are Catholic, or you don't. A rice wafer is NOT the thing that Jesus said was his body. If you believe that it's just as good, then you reject the idea of transubstantiation because the wafer becomes symbolic instead of literal. There isn't anything wrong with it, but IMO, this woman expecting the RCC to bow to her wishes is just way out of line, especially when she HAS been offered alternatives.

 

[auntpolly]

Originally posted by WDWHound
The problem is that we are both discussing something very important to us

It's important to you how I choose to worship God? It's important to you what people do in a church that you don't attend? I just would <i>never</i> do that. It's <i>none</i> of my business.

Unless a faith involves doing human sacrifice or doing something illegal, I'd say we should let each other be and let each other decide what's important about our own faiths.

 

[phillybeth]

Originally posted by tonyswife
I have no idea, LOL. This is kind of what I was getting at. The wheat thing seems like such a non-issue in the face of the RCCs other transgressions.

Stop the Catholic-bashing please. There are two books that were taken OUT of the King James bible that were retained in the Catholic Bible.

How about the book of Mormon? Is that not the word of God? How about the Q'uran? The writings of Buddha? The Talmud?

Why is just the KJ bible the word of God? How about the many saints and holy people that believe that God has spoken to them? Was Ghandi not doing the work of God? How about Mother Teresa? Joan of Arc?

 

[septbride2002]

I don't know, it just made perfect sense to me that if the wafer IS the body and if the wine IS the blood that you can't just go substituting something else.

Not directing this to you but to everyone.

I was always taught to believe that with the Priest blessing did the bread and wine turn to Body and Blood. Otherwise it would still just be bread and wine. If this is so the case - then could not the Priest bless an alternative bread and it sill become the body?

~Amanda

 

[phillybeth]

Originally posted by septbride2002
Not directing this to you but to everyone.

I was always taught to believe that with the Priest blessing did the bread and wine turn to Body and Blood. Otherwise it would still just be bread and wine. If this is so the case - then could not the Priest bless an alternative bread and it sill become the body?

~Amanda

If it is not wheat bread, at least in some small part, then it is not bread for consecration according to the Church. And that is the crux of the argument.

 

[auntpolly]

Originally posted by septbride2002
Not directing this to you but to everyone.

I was always taught to believe that with the Priest blessing did the bread and wine turn to Body and Blood. Otherwise it would still just be bread and wine. If this is so the case - then could not the Priest bless an alternative bread and it sill become the body?

~Amanda

The priest isn't doing magic tricks up there! He's just doing God's work!

 

[tonyswife]

Originally posted by phillybeth
Stop the Catholic-bashing please. There are two books that were taken OUT of the King James bible that were retained in the Catholic Bible.

How about the book of Mormon? Is that not the word of God? How about the Q'uran? The writings of Buddha? The Talmud?

Why is just the KJ bible the word of God? How about the many saints and holy people that believe that God has spoken to them? Was Ghandi not doing the work of God? How about Mother Teresa? Joan of Arc?

Stop putting words in my mouth please. I'm not Catholic bashing (what an absurd thing to say) I have no idea who speaks for God and who God speaks to. That's my point, how can you tell if someone is just making it up, if they are inspired by God and how do you decide for yourself who to listen to? What criteria do you use? WHO said the wafer MUST have wheat, and HOW did they come to that conclusion?

 

[WDWHound]

Originally posted by auntpolly
It's important to you how I choose to worship God? It's important to you what people do in a church that you don't attend? I just would <i>never</i> do that. It's <i>none</i> of my business.

We all worship the same God. Its hsould be important to all Christains how other Christians worship God. We are Christians 1st, and Catholic, Methodist, baptists or whatever second. Note that the pope has not problem stating that protestants do no experience the full Christian experience and I respect him for doing so. Because I like to look at all denominations just one large community of faith, I see less issue with critical discussion about my mine or any other denomination. What anyone does in the name of Christ reflects on all Christians. I don't think we will ever agree (I 'm not sure we should even try), but I do feel we need to be able to talk about things like this.

I really am comuncated badly here. I am not trying to criticize your faith or the Catholic church. I am trying to explain why you might be seeing some emotions you did not expect in this thread and to share a little about what I beleive. I stated in my first post that I felt like the couples best option might be to leave the curch rather than to try and change it and that the church was well within it's rights to deny them communion. I also feel bound when I say something like that to say that I disagree with Catholic tradition on this point because it is so counter to the very core of my faith. That does not mean that i don't respect your beleifs nor am I trying to change them. I have these conversations on the receiving end my baptist Mom does not agree with some Methodist doctrine), so I do understand that it can feel like an attack, but I promise you that is not my goal.

Again, I appologize. I seem to be only succeeding in making you angry and that was never my intent.

 

[auntpolly]

Originally posted by tonyswife
That's my point, how can you tell if someone is just making it up, if they are inspired by God and how do you decide for yourself who to listen to? What criteria do you use?

How do any of us decide this? We all have our religious scholars and teachers that help us understand scripture and understand the tennants of our faith. We follow the way that make sense to us.