Chiropractors? Real medicine or quacks?

[Geoff_M]

Everyone's body is a unique machine and what works for one may not work for another.

I want to highlight this notion because it is very important. It's the belief that allows every quack in the world to remain in business. Evidence be damned.... just because studies show that my treatment may not work 99.9% of the time, that doesn't mean it won't work for YOU young lady! Just $100 a bottle! What's harm is there? Give it a try!

 

[Geoff_M]

You must have meant several thousand decades:

In actuality, acupuncture may not be as ancient as has generally been assumed. A reconsideration of all extant documents and recent archaeological finds indicates that acupuncture may date back a mere 2100 to 2300 years, first appearing during China's Warring States Period (475-221 BC) and rapidly maturing during the Western Han Dynasty (206 BC-24 AD).

Uh no, while it's true that people have been sticking things into people in hopes of treating them in lots of cultures (East and West) for thousands of years (in addition to bloodletting, releasing humors, etc.), what was around back then wasn't what would be recognized as today's acupuncture treatments.

 

[Magpie]

So for those of you that have had good luck with a chiropractor, what should I look for in picking out one of the good ones? Are there any particular questions I should ask ahead of time? Are x-rays a good thing or a bad thing?

For us, it was word of mouth, combined with the knowledge that a major national sports team had been happily sending their players to our guy for years. These players get the best of the best, so that said a lot to us about his skills.

Secondly, every first visit with our chiro is an initial physical assessment, before which you watch a video where he talks about risks, benefits and what sort of complaints you should take to a doctor - although he'll be happy to continue working in partnership with your doctor!

On the second visit he gives you a treatment plan and an initial adjustment. I don't recall that he's ever had his hands on my neck... When he does adjustments on me, he works on my back, and he's sometimes moved my head a little, but never in a yanking, pulling or abrupt way. It's just a slight, gentle kind of movement, and he tells me exactly what he's about to do before he does it.

He also gives his patients stretching exercises to do on their own. He says your recovery is as much in your own hands, as it is in his.

I will say that I waltzed in there fully expecting to be "fixed" in one treatment. That didn't happen. I did get a lot more mobility back right away, but my pain actually increased for a couple weeks. The chiro explained that the problem was that my nerves had been pinched and that they were basically "coming back to life". He said it was a good sign! Since I could move so much better, I was willing to give it a shot, and sure enough it eventually stopped hurting.

My chiro would have liked to keep working on my posture (I carry my head more forward than I should), but I decided it doesn't bother me. I am having him work on my daughter for the same thing, though, because I like to see her standing up straight. I remind her to do her stretches, the chiro keeps track of her progress (occasionally changing the kinds of stretches) and does the occasional light adjustment (no neck stuff), and she's definitely walking straighter and taller and looking good. We got a second set of photos and you can actually measure the improvement. I'm not vain about myself, but I am about my kid.

About x-rays? I had some on my first visit, because he said there are some things that if he saw them in the x-ray he'd send me back to my doctor. My daughter didn't get any x-rays - she got photographed in front of a grid with velcro balls stuck to her and a computer analyzed her posture. I think whether you get an x-ray or not would depend on what you're going in for.

 

[minkydog]

You're complaining about anecdotal evidence?

All of chiropractic medicine is based on anecdotal evidence.

"Hey, I took Airborne before my last flight and I didn't get sick. See, it works!"

Guess what. I read a newspaper on my last flight and I didn't get sick. Obviously reading newspapers prevents people from getting a cold, right?

Heck yeah. and here's another tip: Snap your fingers to keep tigers away. I've been snapping my fingers for 50 years and so far, no tigers have bothered me.

 

[declansdad]

Um, first of all in your links two of them pointed to the SAME study. The third, as far as I tell, didn't point to any specific additional study showing no stroke evidence.

But to your point, "good" doctors often produce studies with incorrect results. The difference between "good" science and "bad" science is that "good" science is repeatable. That's why confirming studies are needed for ANY result. So far, the numbers seem to point at an elevated stroke risk in people that have received neck "adjustments". As additional work is done, the picture will become clearer.

Your third link referred to the decision of a state chiropractic board to decide that there was no stroke risk. Here's another summary of the testimony and decision process in that case.

If you read the study and the findings from the 3rd link, you will see that the risk of a stroke is identical in patients visiting a chiropractor or an MD. I didn't say it doesn't happen but rather the statement that chiropractors increase the risk dramatically is not supported in evidence.

This is similar to the supposed link between autism and vaccines. Even when presented with evidence that there isn't a link, people still believe it to be true.

 

[tlbwriter]

Heck yeah. and here's another tip: Snap your fingers to keep tigers away. I've been snapping my fingers for 50 years and so far, no tigers have bothered me.

Well, I can't snap my fingers but I've never been bothered by a tiger, so my anecdotal evidence cancels out your anecdotal evidence.

 

[Geoff_M]

If you read the study and the findings from the 3rd link, you will see that the risk of a stroke is identical in patients visiting a chiropractor or an MD.

If you look, the 3rd link refers to the SAME Canadian study referenced in the first two links. You said that there were studies, not a study that showed no increased risk.

This is similar to the supposed link between autism and vaccines. Even when presented with evidence that there isn't a link, people still believe it to be true.

Here's the problem... science based medicine isn't about belief, it's about repeatable demonstrable proof. There is no such thing as "alternative" medicine. It doesn't get to play by a different set of rules. Something either is "medicine" or it isn't. If it claims that it "does something", then that something can be measured, and shown to work... or not.

 

[mill4023]

Do you have any unbiased proof that these things don't work? Or do only believe studies by the MDs?

I only believe studies that are scientifically sound.

Show me scientifically sound studies that show chiropractic is effective for anything other than back and neck pain and I'll believe you.

I didn't say anything about the risk of stroke issue because I don't know anything about it.

 

[declansdad]

If you look, the 3rd link refers to the SAME Canadian study referenced in the first two links. You said that there were studies, not a study that showed no increased risk.

Here's the problem... science based medicine isn't about belief, it's about repeatable demonstrable proof. There is no such thing as "alternative" medicine. It doesn't get to play by a different set of rules. Something either is "medicine" or it isn't. If it claims that it "does something", then that something can be measured, and shown to work... or not.

The problem is that we are debating ancedotal evidence on both sides. Each group can claim to know best but at the same time say others are wrong. Just look at this thread for example. Many people have stated that they have been helped by chiropractors and there a few that say they weren't. The same can be said about MDs; so which side is correct?

 

[declansdad]

I only believe studies that are scientifically sound.

Show me scientifically sound studies that show chiropractic is effective for anything other than back and neck pain and I'll believe you.

I didn't say anything about the risk of stroke issue because I don't know anything about it.

You didn't answer my question. Can you provide unbiased proof that it doesn't help?

 

[mill4023]

The problem is that we are debating ancedotal evidence on both sides. Each group can claim to know best but at the same time say others are wrong. Just look at this thread for example. Many people have stated that they have been helped by chiropractors and there a few that say they weren't. The same can be said about MDs; so which side is correct?

No, we are NOT debating anecdotal evidence on both sides.

And no, the same cannot be said about MD's. The effectiveness of treatments provided by actual doctors is based on scientific study, not anecdotes.

If you go to a chiropractor for an ear infection, the ONLY evidence that they can help you is anecdotal. "Hey, some guy I knew took their kid to a chiropractor and they cured their ear infection." There is ZERO scientific evidence that this is true.

If you take your child to an MD for an ear infection and they prescribe an antibiotic, there is plenty of scientific evidence that proves that antibiotics are effective in treating bacterial infections.

 

[rie'smom]

Uh no, while it's true that people have been sticking things into people in hopes of treating them in lots of cultures (East and West) for thousands of years (in addition to bloodletting, releasing humors, etc.), what was around back then wasn't what would be recognized as today's acupuncture treatments.

It may not be recognized as acupuncture practiced in the West today but it is the acupuncture that has been practiced in the East for thousands of years. Don't forget we think in the West that we invented everything.
Oh and as for bloodletting, many doctors are now using leeches because they've been found to help. They also use honey and maggots all of which were pooh poohed by "modern" medicine for years as quackery. Is the best way to treat an illness giving patients poison because that is what medicine is. It kills the bacteria but it also affects other parts of the body. Watch a tv commercial for pain relievers, arthritis meds or any other medication.
Also, are you a doctor? I'm just wondering why there seems to be a problem with alternative medicine.

 

[declansdad]

No, we are NOT debating anecdotal evidence on both sides.

And no, the same cannot be said about MD's. The effectiveness of treatments provided by actual doctors is based on scientific study, not anecdotes.

If you go to a chiropractor for an ear infection, the ONLY evidence that they can help you is anecdotal. "Hey, some guy I knew took their kid to a chiropractor and they cured their ear infection." There is ZERO scientific evidence that this is true.

If you take your child to an MD for an ear infection and they prescribe an antibiotic, there is plenty of scientific evidence that proves that antibiotics are effective in treating bacterial infections.

Sorry, I have been talking about the increase risk of stroke from chiropractic adjustments. I don't dispute your last example at all.

 

[mill4023]

You didn't answer my question. Can you provide unbiased proof that it doesn't help?

Proof that what doesn't help what? Since chiropractors claim to be able to treat so many different illnesses, you'll have to be more specific.

Can you prove that reading a newspaper doesn't prevent colds? I doubt you are going to find a study on that one. But since there's absolutely no evidence that reading a newspaper prevents colds and no reason to believe it would, I think I'll stick with being a pessimist. Since there is absolutely no scientific evidence that chiropractic treatment helps asthma or ear infections or cancer, I'll stick with being a pessimist on that one as well.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I want to highlight this notion because it is very important. It's the belief that allows every quack in the world to remain in business. Evidence be damned.... just because studies show that my treatment may not work 99.9% of the time, that doesn't mean it won't work for YOU young lady! Just $100 a bottle! What's harm is there? Give it a try!

That is interesting considering the post you extracted this statement.

 

[declansdad]

Proof that what doesn't help what? Since chiropractors claim to be able to treat so many different illnesses, you'll have to be more specific.

Can you prove that reading a newspaper doesn't prevent colds? I doubt you are going to find a study on that one. But since there's absolutely no evidence that reading a newspaper prevents colds and no reason to believe it would, I think I'll stick with being a pessimist. Since there is absolutely no scientific evidence that chiropractic treatment helps asthma or ear infections or cancer, I'll stick with being a pessimist on that one as well.

I'm talking about strokes; can you provide evidence that they cause a higher risk of stroke?

 

[Geoff_M]

Many people have stated that they have been helped by chiropractors and there a few that say they weren't. The same can be said about MDs; so which side is correct?

Well, you can do clinical studies to see if one treatment modality can be shown to work statically better than another. For example, is asthma in children controlled better in a group of children given Albuterol versus another group that only is given period neck "adjustments"?

But without a doubt some kids' asthma will improve in the "neck snap" group even if Albuterol is clearly superior. There's usually some placebo effect in every treatment group (though I could be wrong and perhaps there is some mystical unknown nerve pathway in your neck that causes asthma if it is not properly "aligned"). So, I suppose could ask "So, what? If the kid is better, who cares if it's placebo or not?" Well, for starters, you still can't say that this means neck twisting treats asthma. If a placebo effect is good enough for you, then perhaps a cheaper less riskier placebo treatment might also work.

 

[mill4023]

We can go on and on about the details, but it's kind of pointless, and like a lot of other topics on the DIS, people are going to keep posting anecdotal evidence, which for people who think logically, is really not evidence at all.

The problem with chiropractic is that the entire thing is founded on a theory that is complete nonsense. The theory is that virtually all disease is caused by misalignment of the spine, or what they call a subluxation, and that fixing this misalignment by performing adjustments will cure the disease.

The fact is that there is no such thing as a subluxation and short of an actual injury, it is impossible for the spine to get "mis-aligned". And if it can't get "mis-aligned", it certainly can't be fixed by an "adjustment".

So regardless of whether some people get relief from back pain by seeing a chiropractor, that relief is not due to any "adjustments" and the basic theory of chiropractic is still complete and utter nonsense.

So can chiropractic help with a sore back? Sure.
Would I suggest anyone see a chiropractor for a sore back? Absolutely not.
You can get the same kind of relief by seeing someone who actually understands how massage and physical therapy can help and has been trained based on scientific evidence, not nonsense theories.

 

[minkydog]

Oh and as for bloodletting, many doctors are now using leeches because they've been found to help. They also use honey and maggots all of which were pooh poohed by "modern" medicine for years as quackery. .

Doctors have been using leeches and maggots and honey for ate least the last 34 years that I've been a nurse. I know this because I have applied them. They're not just any old leeches you find in the creek. They and the maggots come from medical supply houses and they are used for specific things. Leeches are often used in areas where circulation is poor because they have an anticoagulant in their saliva which keeps the blood from clotting--I've seen this used on children suffering from meningicoccal meningitis to try to save fingers and feet. Maggots are used for recalcitrant infections. And honey is used often for bedsores and other slow-healing ulcers.

 

[mill4023]

I'm talking about strokes; can you provide evidence that they cause a higher risk of stroke?

No. Why would I? I never made that claim.