Cheating

[WDSearcher]

I believe that this student should be removed from National Honor Society.

Have you mentioned this to the National Honor Society, or only to the administration at your school? I get that NHS is administrated locally, but have you been told by any national NHS official that it can't be done? If you haven't, then you still have an avenue. If you have, and the answer was "we don't care", then you can either choose to make it cause (which you've kind of already said you don't want to do) or you can drop it and move on, realizing that sooner or later this kid will get caught.

Or, I suppose, there's a third option. You could keep track of the kid and find out which colleges he's applying for and contact them independently to tell them of the kid's blatant disrespect for doing one's own work and suggest that the colleges might want to look further into the kid's academics before admitting him, but that might come across as a bit excessive.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

...Or, I suppose, there's a third option. You could keep track of the kid and find out which colleges he's applying for and contact them independently to tell them of the kid's blatant disrespect for doing one's own work and suggest that the colleges might want to look further into the kid's academics before admitting him, but that might come across as a bit excessive...

Sounds like stalking to me.

 

[Toad_Passenger]

I decided to look at our High School's current disciplinary structure.

"Cheating/Lying" is a Level 1 offense. Correct response, as laid out by the District, is immediate intervention by the teacher/staff, followed by "possible" written notification to the parents/guardians.

Appropriate discipline includes:
Detention (teacher or administrative), including Saturday detention.
Administrative/parent conference (person/phone)
Behavioral contract
Counseling
Restorative Practices Intervention
Teacher/parent conference (person/phone)
Temporary removal from class
Verbal reprimand

It is a Level 1 offense up until the 4th time. At that point it would become a Level 2 offense, which would require more severe discipline. At this point lengthy suspension of extracurricular activities/privileges, or removal from those activities would be an option but still not guaranteed.

Since it's been stated this is the student's 2nd offense, this student would still be part of NHS in our District, as well. More than likely this student would have received the 0 on the assignment, a conference, a Saturday detention, and possible ISS.

 

[disney junky]

Have you mentioned this to the National Honor Society, or only to the administration at your school? I get that NHS is administrated locally, but have you been told by any national NHS official that it can't be done? If you haven't, then you still have an avenue. If you have, and the answer was "we don't care", then you can either choose to make it cause (which you've kind of already said you don't want to do) or you can drop it and move on, realizing that sooner or later this kid will get caught.

Or, I suppose, there's a third option. You could keep track of the kid and find out which colleges he's applying for and contact them independently to tell them of the kid's blatant disrespect for doing one's own work and suggest that the colleges might want to look further into the kid's academics before admitting him, but that might come across as a bit excessive.

Right. It is. And ordinarily I am content to let these things run their course. I was frustrated when I initially posted because the administrator told me directly that he didn't want the kids removed from NHS, not that it's my call anyway as I am not an adviser. He has informed the adviser, but she's the one who ends up having the make the call, and historically, he bails if a parent calls with a complaint rather than support the decision of the professional. And as I noted in an earlier post, this kid's parents are friends of ours. Not close, but casual, so this has been difficult from the first time.

Really, I just jumped on and vented after I realized NHS membership wasn't going to be withdrawn, because I think it does matter.

I don't feel I overreacted. I've handled this before with other students. This one was more frustrating because it was a second time, it was the child of friends, and because it was so obvious.

So, I vented on the DIS, desiring a little empathy or sympathy....

Another thread.

Do I overreact?

 

[Hannathy]

We are talking about a kid who did this once in HS, not a college kid. It isn't me who is reaching, here.

I agree! It was a stupid HS homework assignment from the sounds of it. Not a College paper.

And the college level course I take is an AP class. The trouble with those is so many of the teachers teach them like they are just reg HS classes and give all the same busy work and tedious homework assignments as they do for reg hs classes. If the actually treated them as college classes I think the bright kids would have more respect for the classes and the teachers. So much is just busy work that if the kid is busy with all the other AP classes and their busy work and the extra currics he needs to get into a good school he probably is using cliff notes to fill in the blanks on the busy work. And I honestly don't blame him. My DD had 10 AP classes in HS and only 2-3 were taught anywhere near the way a college class would be taught. The rest were still taught as tho they were HS classes with busy work and stupid waste of time things.

When the teachers start teaching them and treating them like college courses then the kids will start acting as such.


And OP if you are so worried about the quality of your NHS club do you volunteer to be an adviser? I don't mean for the money as the paid adviser in charge, just volunteer your time to help instill the qualities and expectations you think there should be.. I'm sure the teacher in charge could use another hand.




PS I've seen quite a few write ups from teachers come home with plagiarized things on them if we are going to get critical.

 

[disney junky]

I agree! It was a stupid HS homework assignment from the sounds of it. Not a College paper.

And the college level course I take is an AP class. The trouble with those is so many of the teachers teach them like they are just reg HS classes and give all the same busy work and tedious homework assignments as they do for reg hs classes. If the actually treated them as college classes I think the bright kids would have more respect for the classes and the teachers. So much is just busy work that if the kid is busy with all the other AP classes and their busy work and the extra currics he needs to get into a good school he probably is using cliff notes to fill in the blanks on the busy work. And I honestly don't blame him. My DD had 10 AP classes in HS and only 2-3 were taught anywhere near the way a college class would be taught. The rest were still taught as tho they were HS classes with busy work and stupid waste of time things.

When the teachers start teaching them and treating them like college courses then the kids will start acting as such.


And OP if you are so worried about the quality of your NHS club do you volunteer to be an adviser? I don't mean for the money as the paid adviser in charge, just volunteer your time to help instill the qualities and expectations you think there should be.. I'm sure the teacher in charge could use another hand.




PS I've seen quite a few write ups from teachers come home with plagiarized things on them if we are going to get critical.

It was a college paper. See previous post.

 

[Hannathy]

It was a college paper. See previous post.

You teach college? I thought NHS was a high school club.

Because AP classes are still High school

 

[agnes!]

I agree! It was a stupid HS homework assignment from the sounds of it. Not a College paper.

And the college level course I take is an AP class.

You're taking an AP class now? I didn't know adults could take AP classes.

The trouble with those is so many of the teachers teach them like they are just reg HS classes and give all the same busy work and tedious homework assignments as they do for reg hs classes. If the actually treated them as college classes I think the bright kids would have more respect for the classes and the teachers. So much is just busy work that if the kid is busy with all the other AP classes and their busy work and the extra currics he needs to get into a good school he probably is using cliff notes to fill in the blanks on the busy work. And I honestly don't blame him. My DD had 10 AP classes in HS and only 2-3 were taught anywhere near the way a college class would be taught. The rest were still taught as tho they were HS classes with busy work and stupid waste of time things.

When the teachers start teaching them and treating them like college courses then the kids will start acting as such.

... ...

PS I've seen quite a few write ups from teachers come home with plagiarized things on them if we are going to get critical.

Then, Hannathy, you have a problem with the local school-system & the quality of the AP classes your DD has taken. By the end of her HS school-career my DD will have taken 7 AP classes and they have all been at a college-level and her scores so far indicate that she has a sufficient mastery of the subjects.
Do some of the AP classes at her HS not rise to a college-level? Yes indeed some do and she has avoided those classes like the plague, the kids all know which ones they are. Do some of the teachers assign work that would be more appropriate for a HS classroom instead of a college classroom? Yes, in my opinion some of them do but that varies by individual teachers.

And yeah, we've noticed that teachers can lift entire worksheets from the Internet but students aren't supposed to do pretty much the same thing.

agnes!

 

[WDSearcher]

Right. It is. And ordinarily I am content to let these things run their course. I was frustrated when I initially posted because the administrator told me directly that he didn't want the kids removed from NHS, not that it's my call anyway as I am not an adviser. He has informed the adviser, but she's the one who ends up having the make the call, and historically, he bails if a parent calls with a complaint rather than support the decision of the professional. And as I noted in an earlier post, this kid's parents are friends of ours. Not close, but casual, so this has been difficult from the first time.

Really, I just jumped on and vented after I realized NHS membership wasn't going to be withdrawn, because I think it does matter.

I don't feel I overreacted. I've handled this before with other students. This one was more frustrating because it was a second time, it was the child of friends, and because it was so obvious.

So, I vented on the DIS, desiring a little empathy or sympathy....

OK ... duly noted. But seriously ... when your initial post is

Apparently blatant plagiarism isn't grounds to dismiss a student from National Honor Society, according to administration.

and nothing else, it's kind of hard to determine what you're looking for there. Empathy? Sympathy? Suggestions? Validation? Similar stories? An explanation? It could come across as frustration. Or whining. Or even bragging, depending on the rest of the story. (If you imagine your cheater student writing that same exact sentence, it comes across VERY differently ...)

I think if you had prefaced your thesis statement with, "I discovered today that ...." or "Today's key learning in the faculty breakroom was ..." then people might have had a better idea of where you were going and would have offered you more sympathy and support.

As for whether or not you over-react ... I don't think so. You don't over-react, you under-explain.

 

[Hannathy]

You're taking an AP class now? I didn't know adults could take AP classes.

Aren't you cute. I meant it as the way I understand it, maybe you should quit trying to be cute.

No the material was hard enough and it is an excellent school district. I was referring to the manner of teaching. In College you do not have busy work like High school teachers give out. And since she spent most of her senior year at the university I do believe she was a good judge of the difference.

 

[disney junky]

You teach college? I thought NHS was a high school club.

Because AP classes are still High school

I teach high school. I am also considered an adjunct instructor for the local community college while teaching its classes in the local high school. This was for a college class taught in the high school.

I have intentionally avoided being too specific for obvious reasons.

 

[agnes!]

I agree! It was a stupid HS homework assignment from the sounds of it. Not a College paper.

And the college level course I take is an AP class. ...

You're taking an AP class now? I didn't know adults could take AP classes.

Aren't you cute. I meant it as the way I understand it, maybe you should quit trying to be cute.

No the material was hard enough and it is an excellent school district. I was referring to the manner of teaching. In College you do not have busy work like High school teachers give out. And since she spent most of her senior year at the university I do believe she was a good judge of the difference.

Actually, I was asking an honest question, I thought maybe adults could take AP classes in certain situations...sheesh.

Fine. Whatever.
agnes!

 

[Hannathy]

I teach high school. I am also considered an adjunct instructor for the local community college while teaching its classes in the local high school. This was for a college class taught in the high school.

I have intentionally avoided being too specific for obvious reasons.

so they get actual college credit or high school credit there is a big difference. When they graduate they will have 3 or 6 actual college credits? that would be nice the kids like my DD had to actually travel to the University to take classes while in high school.

And do you teach it the same way you would if it was being given at the college? That is my biggest complaint with many of the AP teachers. They just teach the harder material the same way they would if it was a high school course. They don't teach it like a college course.

 

[disney junky]

so they get actual college credit or high school credit there is a big difference. When they graduate they will have 3 or 6 actual college credits? that would be nice the kids like my DD had to actually travel to the University to take classes while in high school.

And do you teach it the same way you would if it was being given at the college? That is my biggest complaint with many of the AP teachers. They just teach the harder material the same way they would if it was a high school course. They don't teach it like a college course.

The classes are written to the college requirements. The syllabus must be approved by the college. By the end of the year, students who have earned at least a C will receive 3 credits for each semester. A total of 6, Composition 101 and Composition 102. In previous years when there has been enough demand, I have also taught a sophomore lit class. So a student could possibly have 9 English credits upon graduation from high school. The local community college also offers courses in the Health, Family and Consumer Science, Science, and Foreign Language departments. Kids can graduate with at least a semester's worth of credits.

I also teach AP.

In answer to your question, do I teach the class like a college class? As much as possible; however, whereas a college class meets for 50 minutes, three times a week for 15 weeks (or some variation of that), I see these students every day for 43 minutes, for 90 sessions. That's a lot more time than they would be in my class on campus. I try to make the assignments legitimate, thoughtful, and challenging. They don't magically turn into real college students when they walk through my doors, and often I need to remind them that though they are here in high school, technically they are in college. (so act like it )

I treat the AP kids the same way. As much as I can, I get feedback from former students to verify the effectiveness of both the content and my teaching. I try to adapt as much as I can. But there, I am subject to my school's administrator's philosophy, and he hates lecture and loves lots of grades, so at times, there may be work for that end.

Both classes have their advantages. The AP content is important for students going on in some field in the humanities. The readings are great. Not all the kids opt to take the AP test, but for those who do, I try to design assignments which prepare them for it. The disadvantage of the college in the high school program (aka, dual enrollment) is that the students do miss out on a whole lot of literary content which may put them behind, depending on their choice of college/major. Also, not all colleges accept this credit.

I hope this answers your questions. I didn't mean to hijack my own thread, but for the sake of explanation, I did.

 

[Alphabetsoup]

2 things....

RE: plagiarism
I teach journalism at university and had a HUGE issue with this last semester (luckily or unluckily with the same student all 3 times). I had him for 2 different classes. In both classes he plagiarized part of an article. In the first instance, he lifted quotes from a John's Hopkin's doctor/professor from a NYTimes article. So, as it was Intermediate Journalism, I sat him down and we went over the syllabus clause regarding plagiarism. My supervisor said that I should NOT fail the assignment, but give him the opportunity to fix it. I gave him 48 hours to fix the problem and resubmit....he didn't bother (which is a LONG story in and of itself).

Several weeks later he plagiarized parts of 2 more articles for me...in a 3 page paper he plagiarized (word for WORD!) 2 pages of it from the campus police website! At this point he KNEW the problem because I went over it at length. He also plagiarized parts of an Orlando Tribune story for an article in another of my classes. I gave him a zero on all THREE stories with plagiarized components.

As a result, he failed the class and had the NERVE to email me (on Christmas Eve no less!) to protest that he didn't understand how the plagiarism should make him fail the class (it wasn't the only reason....but it certainly helped!). So I told him I'd be happy to discuss the issue with him once classes resumed, but reminded him that according to the Honor Code Policy, I SHOULD have reported him to the Dean where the infraction would then go on his permanent transcript (I didn't because my Department Head told me to just fail him but not ruin him -- something I'm still pissed about -- I can't stand unethical behaviour in journalism!).

I get students all the time who claim they were never TOLD what plagiarism is while in high school.

2) the 'rigor' of college versus AP classes. In many cases it is a joke. I am sad to say that while I teach university classes, I have to teach them according to high school 'teaching' tactics. Why you ask?? Because the students complain and whine on evaluations unless they are babied along and kept entertained. It drives me BATTY. I resent having to dumb things down and put on a whole 'dog and pony' show, because that is what they got in high school and it is too HARD to read something challenging. Case in point...I gave a quiz today to my Basic Reporting students. They knew about the quiz from the first day of class. When I was in school it would have been a surprise quiz, no notes -- and if you weren't prepared you suffered the consequences -- but oooooh no! I couldn't POSSIBLY do that to these precious lil snowflakes. I have to give them SCHEDULED quizzes, OPEN NOTE (this means they can use any handwritten notes AND printouts of my lecture slides which I HAVE to supply to students the night BEFORE lectures...as per orders of the Faculty Dean and President of the University.

The biggest problem in all of this is the fact that the parents of these students have treated them like precious jewels throughout their lives -- "My little Johnny is brilliant, if you'd just give him what he needs to succeed" (namely the answers!). "You can do anything and you don't need to work hard because you are SOOOOO smart". NEWSFLASH: Your kids STILL need to work hard. They are NOT entitled to having everything HANDED to them...they actually need to READ the textbook and come to class. And merely turning in assignments is NOT the criteria for earning an A.

Sorry to high-jack...but some of the comments were making me laugh. Oh yeah...and to the person that thinks most professors have assistants who write our articles for us...get a CLUE! I have a grad student 2 hours a week who helps me grade papers -- that is ALL. All articles I write myself or with another professor. The practice you are referring to (clearly, without having any understanding of it) happens at large research schools where the grad students write papers...but can't get them PUBLISHED unless a fully credentialed PhD holder is listed as one of the authors (usually first or last depending upon the school). These papers are also usually include as authors ALL grad students in that 'research department' -- whether they did any actual work on the paper or not. And the grad students NEED the publication credits to graduate AND get a job -- so the prof putting their name on the work actually HELPS the student. Lastly...NOT ALL SCHOOLS ARE RUN THIS WAY -- so make sure you have your facts straight before you insult the whole profession!

To the OP, I think you are right and it is a shame that the NHS has no honor anymore. It is nothing more than a paper tiger...sad.

 

[gina2000]

In NJ there is a program called Project Acceleration in which students receive college credits for honors and AP high school classes. I've seen this offered in Spanish and English in high school. I can't comment on the rigor of the classes as I've never taken one.

I think plagiarism and cheating stink. Both grounds for NHS dismissal at my son's high school and any infractions go on permanent records.

Most schools don't want to fight the legal battles that parents pursue when students are in trouble. As a result, institutions just keep watering down curriculum and lowering standards.

 

[Dr.Girlfriend]

Completely off topic, I tried responding to your PMs, Disney Junkie, but it's telling me that your PMs are turned off.