Cheating: Running under anothers bib and effecting results??

[ultramickeymouse]

Hi all,

I wanted your opinion on this issue.

A runner runs under another runners bib. They basically didn't pay for the entry, didn't sign the waiver(major legal issue as an RD: especially medically), and took a medal as a bandit runner. What do you think about this? As a RD, a runner who runs with a chip under another's name who thus effects overall and age division results would be banned for life in my races. Is this cool?

My wife and I were bumped down as were hundreds of others.

 

[Sarah_Rose]

I don't see it as cheating. The way I see it, one race entry was purchased and one race entry was used. In my mind, cheating is cutting the course or taking a medal for a race you did not finish.

What illegal bib "transferring" does do is cheat the athlete of their official time, however. They finished a race, but did not get the official credit for it.

However, I would much rather see a race entry used than forfeited, even if it's not by the person on the entry form. I've personally used a charity race entry (from a charity I have run for several times in the past and volunteer for twice a week) when the original runner became sick at the last minute and couldn't run. The charity would rather have the bib used, and so would I. I'm sure the RD disagreed, but, they never knew.

 

[cewait]

I don't see it as cheating. The way I see it, one race entry was purchased and one race entry was used. In my mind, cheating is cutting the course or taking a medal for a race you did not finish.

What illegal bib "transferring" does do is cheat the athlete of their official time, however. They finished a race, but did not get the official credit for it.

However, I would much rather see a race entry used than forfeited, even if it's not by the person on the entry form. I've personally used a charity race entry (from a charity I have run for several times in the past and volunteer for twice a week) when the original runner became sick at the last minute and couldn't run. The charity would rather have the bib used, and so would I. I'm sure the RD disagreed, but, they never knew.

So not following the rules is the RD cheating the bandit athlete because they don’t get credit for the race? By your definition it is still cheating but you have made the bandit the victim of cheating. I disagree 100%. As a 4th place finisher I would be PO’d to find that I was beaten by a bandit runner half my age! There IS a difference between the two scenarios here. The charity owns so many openings in a race. The charity could care less who runs under what bib as long as all bibs are sold and they collect their funds. But a substituted runner is still a bandit if the charity does not notify the RD.

As an RD, I must purchase insurance and ensure a fair and well equipped race is run and yes I am concerned about who runs. The RD must also be concerned about those few tragic events that can occur in an endurance activity. How tragic would it be if a bandit were to fall seriously ill on course and the RD or med staff could only contact the emergency number provided by the original entrant. DO NOT PUT THE RD IN THIS POSITION. We think entrance fees are high now, have a bandit with a litigious next of kin die on course and see how high next year’s fees will be; if there is a next year.

In the case Robert laid out the bandit cheated someone out of an age group hardware award. What the bandit should do is return the hardware and explain that they did not earn the place, allowing the rightful winner of the hardware to receive their recognition. As an RD I would thank the bandit for being a stand up person and ban them for a year. If I found out about it from other means I would ban the runner from all events I run. Not sure if for life but it would be for a while.

 

[VernRDH]

Being new to racing, I don't understand why you can't transfer your bib to someone else officially, by notifying the RD. If someone is injured or ill and can't compete, then someone else could in their place. Can't they just have some type of form for transferring the entry?

Is it cheating to use someone elses entry? I guess if they are faster or have a chance of placing high in the division it does cheat other runners.

 

[MarathonFanatic]

Did the so-called "bandit" take a finisher's medal, or an age-group award medal?

I'd be upset if I was bumped out of an award by this, but if it was just a finisher's medal - who cares? At least they earned it. It's not like they jumped on the course mid-race and claimed something they didn't put the miles in to complete, which I think is a FAR WORSE crime than using someone else's bib number.

 

[jmasgat]

I think Charles raises some reasonable points as to why swappng bibs--without RD knowledge--may have negative consequences. As for results/medal standings, I also agree that it would be an unfortunate situation to displace a runner out of an age group or other result.

So why, after all ths time, hasn't anyone figured out a way to allow for legit number swapping? I understand it could present some additional logisitical issues, but does it really happen so frequently that it is would be a real burden? Even airlines allow some changing--for a price, and we all know how difficult they can be!

A couple of final comments....the bandit "not paying for the entry"---that is an issue between the bandit and the entered runner since the race still got their money. And finally, and I hope delicately phrased...I can see raising this issue as a "Hypothetical case"---there are legitimate points to be made and heard---but to half state that it is a WISH'er and then to make the final comment "Beware one of these runners stated we were never friends nor spoke off the forum" sounds more like trying the person in the court of public opinion. If this is a personal issue, I think it should be resolved offline.

Maura

 

[Kristi1357]

I'd be upset if I was bumped out of an award by this, but if it was just a finisher's medal - who cares? At least they earned it. It's not like they jumped on the course mid-race and claimed something they didn't put the miles in to complete, which I think is a FAR WORSE crime than using someone else's bib number.

A couple of final comments....the bandit "not paying for the entry"---that is an issue between the bandit and the entered runner since the race still got their money. And finally, and I hope delicately phrased...I can see raising this issue as a "Hypothetical case"---there are legitimate points to be made and heard---but to half state that it is a WISH'er and then to make the final comment "Beware one of these runners stated we were never friends nor spoke off the forum" sounds more like trying the person in the court of public opinion. If this is a personal issue, I think it should be resolved offline.

Maura

 

[bunnyfoo]

Until I read Robert's post, I wasn't aware of some of the other issues involved in giving a bib to another runner. I know that popular races often sell out and for some people, buying a bib from someone else is the only way they can race. I'm also another person who wishes that there were more races where you could pay a small fee and have the bib number transferred. I won't run with someone else's name on my bib but that's just me.

I'm not sure how I feel about the cheating issue. I guess it would be
more clear cut if runner A had asked runner B to wear his bib knowing that he/she would win the prize. In any case, I think that runner should return the award since he didn't really run the race.

 

[Terri5176]

In January of this year, I was registered to run Goofy. In this case, the name was appropriate - as I was nowhere near ready! As it turned out, I was swept at mile 11 during the half. My left foot was a mess - and I was unable to continue.

So - when Sunday rolled around, and it came time for the full marathon, I knew I was injured, knew I had no business being on the course, and forfeited my entry fee. I did not enter the race course at any time.

However, like Maura pointed out, if there were a way to give someone my number (for the full only - not Goofy) I would have gladly done it. I would have paid a transfer fee myself....no question.

 

[dsnyfan21]

So why, after all ths time, hasn't anyone figured out a way to allow for legit number swapping? I understand it could present some additional logisitical issues, but does it really happen so frequently that it is would be a real burden? Even airlines allow some changing--for a price, and we all know how difficult they can be!

A couple of final comments....the bandit "not paying for the entry"---that is an issue between the bandit and the entered runner since the race still got their money. And finally, and I hope delicately phrased...I can see raising this issue as a "Hypothetical case"---there are legitimate points to be made and heard---but to half state that it is a WISH'er and then to make the final comment "Beware one of these runners stated we were never friends nor spoke off the forum" sounds more like trying the person in the court of public opinion. If this is a personal issue, I think it should be resolved offline.

Maura

First of all, I have to say I don't know what is in the first post as I have that ignored on my side.
I agree with the last part of Maura's statement here. To outwardly accuse a person who is a WISH teammate, is a slippery slope. Not sure what the underlying reason or purpose is for this - to embarass the person publicly, to show some people are "higher" up on the moral ladder, to point out what can happen if you switch bibs/are a bandit/getting a medal that you never paid a race entry to get, to get revenge? I personlly think this could have been posted differently.

-Tracy

 

[MarathonFanatic]

Hmmm - as for the "not paying for the entry"...

The first post never says that the original bib owner did not receive reimbursement for the entry fee from the bib-acquirer. So other than the issue of the acquirer's name not being officially associated with the bib, the whole "who paid" isn't necessarily an issue - besides, SOMEONE paid for it regardless. If the initial owner didn't want reimbursement from the acquirer, then that is between those two. (It'd be more like receiving the entry fee as a gift.)

 

[scoolover]

My opinion is that I could care less, especially at big races like the ones that Disney puts on. I have sold bibs on two occations for people who signed up and couldn't go to Disney races. I provided a service to two people. If Disney allowed it, I certainly would have facilitated an, "honest" transaction. I assure you that the people who I sold the bibs to did not effect the results (sorry Erin , but I realizt that's not the point.

If I some how came into enough money to make it down in January, I would bring a half bib from last year and run the half.

 

[zakismom]

Although I don't have a problem with someone running under another persons bib if that person can't run, I don't think that the 'bandit' should be eligible for any prizes, however, they should be allowed to collect a medal if they completed the course. It would be better if the bib could be transferred.

Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should someone be allowed to collect a medal for a race in which they did NOT complete the ENTIRE distance of that race ON THAT PARTICULAR DAY, DURING THAT PARTICULAR RACE.

 

[wtpclc]

Although I don't have a problem with someone running under another persons bib if that person can't run, I don't think that the 'bandit' should be eligible for any prizes, however, they should be allowed to collect a medal if they completed the course. It would be better if the bib could be transferred.

Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should someone be allowed to collect a medal for a race in which they did NOT complete the ENTIRE distance of that race ON THAT PARTICULAR DAY, DURING THAT PARTICULAR RACE.

I think Charles raises some reasonable points as to why swappng bibs--without RD knowledge--may have negative consequences. As for results/medal standings, I also agree that it would be an unfortunate situation to displace a runner out of an age group or other result.

So why, after all ths time, hasn't anyone figured out a way to allow for legit number swapping? I understand it could present some additional logisitical issues, but does it really happen so frequently that it is would be a real burden? Even airlines allow some changing--for a price, and we all know how difficult they can be!

A couple of final comments....the bandit "not paying for the entry"---that is an issue between the bandit and the entered runner since the race still got their money. And finally, and I hope delicately phrased...I can see raising this issue as a "Hypothetical case"---there are legitimate points to be made and heard---but to half state that it is a WISH'er and then to make the final comment "Beware one of these runners stated we were never friends nor spoke off the forum" sounds more like trying the person in the court of public opinion. If this is a personal issue, I think it should be resolved offline.

(Bolding added by me)


Finally, there is a difference betweeen a bandit where no bib was ver paid for and someone ran without contributing $ to course support and supplies and such and using a paid for bib, allowed by person who paid for it. With the exception of teh med issues and teh age, it's like my giving my dh a race entry for his b-day. Or having something else that I can't use and a friend can.

 

[RogerM213]

Sorry I am new here but those that know me know I say what is on my mind!

Sounds like the pot is calling the kettle black here.

Or could we say those that live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Enough said. Have a nice day people.

 

[Kristi1357]

 

[JoanneNC]

I do believe that it's ethically wrong as the RD should be aware of each and every person that runs their race for the medical/insurance and statistics reason. Of course all of this could be solved by allowing the transfers of bibs.. The Army 10 miler does it by opening a forum that facilitates the transfers between racers. So it can be done

The real problem with this is the wrong person running does throw off the statistics. Be it the number of men vs woman and then again in the age groups. Granted, the chance of one illegal bib transfer throwing off the top results is slim to none but if 10% of the total racers were incorrect, it's much more of an issue. I would hate to be further down in my female age group because 10% of my fellow age/sex group runners were ran by males..

The race is receiving the money to support the cause and the expenses

 

[ultramickeymouse]

Transfers are set by Race Directors. Some RD's allow it, and some don't. Being a Race Director of small races, I don't allow them. They create a lot of work for very little gain for the RD. $10 transfer fee is not worth the headaches. Can you imagine how much grief it would cause for a race like Disney's?

Runners selling there bibs helps the runner who can't run but doesn't compensate the RD. This only creates a whole new set of problems.

Race Directors have every right to set their rules. If you don't like the races rules than you should not enter them. When you register, you should figure that if you can't run, you just lost your money. Don't create issues for Race Directors who put lots of time and effort into races.

 

[zakismom]

Transfers are set by Race Directors. Some RD's allow it, and some don't. Being a Race Director of small races, I don't allow them. They create a lot of work for very little gain for the RD. $10 transfer fee is not worth the headaches. Can you imagine how much grief it would cause for a race like Disney's?

Runners selling there bibs helps the runner who can't run but doesn't compensate the RD. This only creates a whole new set of problems.

Race Directors have every right to set their rules. If you don't like the races rules than you should not enter them. When you register, you should figure that if you can't run, you just lost your money. Don't create issues for Race Directors who put lots of time and effort into races.

So, I want to make sure I understand. Let's say, for example, that you were unable to arrive in time to participate in the Disneyland 5k. You should NOT sell your bibs?

 

[wtpclc]

I wanted your opinion on this issue.