Cheating: Running under anothers bib and effecting results??

[ultramickeymouse]

If someone legitimately finished a race and sold their medal, then that's fine. But for ANYONE to think that simply paying an entry fee justifies accepting a medal next to all the true finishers is absolutely absurd!!! No medal should be accepted at a finish line that is not 100% earned. By doing this, you are insulting all of those individuals that endured the blood, sweat and tears despite hardships and injuries to have that medal placed around their neck or in their hand.

By using your logic, I could have bagged a distance run earlier this year due to a torn hamstring, but still taken the finisher's medal. Just the thought of this is nauseating.

Just paying for a race doesn't allow you to get a medal but does it allow you to to do with your bib whatever you want to? Sell it? Transfer it?

Also, why would someone who bought a bib to run a race under another's person name wear the timing chip to give the person who didn't run an "Official" finish in the race and in the records for life. Medals come and go but the Official results last forever!

 

[ultramickeymouse]

I already answered this. If bought from eBay as a collector, that's fine... as something to add to a collection.

But once again, to cross a finish line of a race YOU DID NOT START and accept a medal next to someone who has put in the hard work and dedication is 100% insulting.

Buying a medal off of eBay is NOT the same as accepting one as if you both started and finished the race.

What if the person just sold the medal on Ebay? They would than not be in the results and also have nothing(no medal) from the race. It would be like they were never there or did anything. They would know they never finished the race and would have nothing proving it.

 

[ohMom]

sometimes you have to agree to disagree

4. NO FIGHTING/SARCASM: While we'd like to think that a Disney fan site is always lighthearted, there are times when there are disagreements. Let's face it, there are certain topics that can transform any of us into a raging "Donald Duck." When you sense this is happening, we ask that you step away from the discussion before it escalates into a fight. Just like Mom always said about fighting, we don't care who started the argument and we don't want it on the DIS. (Okay, she didn't say the part about the DIS, but you know what we mean.) No attacking others and no sarcasm please. Either will result in an infraction

foundHERE

 

[goofyinohio]

It looks to me like you're talking about two different issues.

I'm assuming you are talking hypotheticals and you haven't done this, but it really makes me sick that someone would cut the course to get a Finishers medal. It's not a medal you can buy in the World Of Disney Store, you can't pick it up in the Emporium it's something you have to earn. You have to Finish the distance you signed up for. When you pay your fee at least at Disney it clearly says all Finishers will receive blank (Donald, Mickey, Princess, etc) medal.

I don't think you can say one is OK, but the other isn't. If you are talking about people who sell bibs because of injury, financial reasons or whatever or give them to someone else then if you are talking about the official rules then no it's not OK. However you can't say the bib wasn't paid for because someone paid for it. Therefore you should already have everything including the medal that the original person bought. My personal feeling is if they chose to do this that the person should not wear a chip or whatever timing device you have so as to not affect the Finishers Standings. I don't agree with it, but I can understand.

Folks I'm nobody, but this is the WISH forum. We're one big family here so please try to keep this to a discussion and not attacks.

 

[ahoff]

I do not have a problem with someone running the whole race and getting a finishing medal under someone else's bib. I do not think the results are going to be skewed that much. I would look to sell it to someone I knew, one who probably would do no better in the final results than I. Just as if I had a ticket to a concert and couldn't go, I would look to sell my ticket/bib to reclaim my fee. Better it gets used rather than be wasted.

 

[ultramickeymouse]

I do not have a problem with someone running the whole race and getting a finishing medal under someone else's bib. I do not think the results are going to be skewed that much. I would look to sell it to someone I knew, one who probably would do no better in the final results than I. Just as if I had a ticket to a concert and couldn't go, I would look to sell my ticket/bib to reclaim my fee. Better it gets used rather than be wasted.

Here is what happened at the New York Marathon:

Race violations are especially troubling to organizers when they affect competitive integrity. The analysis of last year’s marathon showed that participants competing with someone else’s race bib deprived two runners of celebrating age-group victories on race day.

A 19-year-old in the field gave his bib to someone five years older, and that person posted the best time in the 18-19 division. The real division winner, Joseph Keegan of Long Island, did not find out he was first until this spring. In July, he said, he received his award, a Tiffany crystal tray. Still, Mr. Keegan said, he wished he had known of his victory on race day.

“I would have felt proud of myself,” he said. “My family came in, my girlfriend came in. I would have been able to say: ‘Look, see? You came and supported me and this is what you get.’ ”

In the men’s 60-64 division, a 61-year-old from Italy gave his bib to a 25-year-old friend, who posted a time close to the world record for the 60-64 age group. The real winner was Alan Miller, who has run the New York City Marathon more than 20 times but will miss it this year because he is battling cancer.

Mr. Miller said he attended postrace gatherings each year, one with the New York Police Department’s running club and another with friends at Mickey Mantle’s restaurant on Central Park South. If he had known on race day last year that he won his age group and that an award was headed his way, Mr. Miller said, drinks would have been on him.

“It would have been extra special,” he said.

 

[dsnyfan21]

Wow, a lot of moral compassing going on here.

Also think that the medal is an earned medal, EARNED. Otherwise, just hand it out at packet pickup, right? I mean really. Start the course, hop on the monorail at TTC back to EPCOT, jump back into course and grab your "hard earned" medal for instance? It is a finishers medal, to me anyway. You purchase the chance to do a distance, you get a shirt that says you paid and are participating in it. The medal at the end is for you completing the entire race, it signifies something deep down. It really takes away from the time, sweat, tear, hours, injuries to have someone not complete an entire course - course cutter - and then accept the medal as if nothing happened, chip or no chip. I mean somethings you aren't really going to be able to control esp at huge races like Disney, but really, course cutting or banditing or whatever just doesn't seem right to those who complete every step of a race. Most people here (not to insult anyone) are not going to win awards or age placements at Disney, if you did race under someone elses bib and won, I would hope you would not accept the award as that other person. Just wouldn't seem right.

-Tracy

 

[runtime]

(A running bud directed me as they know this is a topic of interest to me. I hope you don't mind a DISboards newbie chiming in.)

Race Directors have every right to set their rules. If you don't like the races rules than you should not enter them. When you register, you should figure that if you can't run, you just lost your money.

I agree with the above 100%. It is a market place. If you don't like the product, don't buy it. I.E. if you don't like the race rules, don't register for the race. Whether or not you feel the rules are fair and just is irrelevant. By registering, you've agreed to them and now it is morally appropriate to hold up your end of the bargain as a participant -- just as you expect other participants to do, and just as you expect the RD to hold up their end of the agreement regarding race specifics (course, chip-timing, t-shirts, etc.).

With respect to the original post and question, then given all that, I would also agree that if the race does not allow for bib transfers, then you shouldn't be transferring/selling/giving away your bib.

I know we've strayed off topic from your original post a bit, but that said, I'm not sure how your above sentiment with respect to adherence to race rules jives with your words below. If you feel that, "When you register, you should figure that if you can't run, you just lost your money.", then how is it that you are seemingly okay with saying, "A person who is a registered runner running under their own bib who does not wear a chip and thus not effect the results joins the race course late and gets a medal(that they paid for) is acceptable."?
Isn't that considered breaking a rule of the race? Doesn't it contradict your first statement?

A person who is a registered runner running under their own bib who does not wear a chip and thus not effect the results joins the race course late and gets a medal(that they paid for) is acceptable. It doesn't hurt anyone other than themselves. As an RD you look at the event as a whole.

I know you say that "it doesn't hurt anyone other than themselves", but isn't that point (which, is itself arguable) irrelevant given what looks like our shared view on adherence to race rules as outlined above?

Race registration language usually says something to the effect of "all finishers will receive commemorative medals". If you accept my sample language, then it seems the only defense would be to say that a "finisher" is defined as something other than a registered participant who starts the race, stays on course, and finishes the race in the time allotted for. If that is not a "finisher", then what is? If that is a "finisher", then how can someone who does meet those requirements accept a finisher's medal and still be abiding by the terms/expectations/rules of the race?

Sorry if I'm misreading something here and that I'm not helping this thread stay on topic. But the comments interest me (as ethics always do). Can you help me understand the apparent discrepancy in your two statements?

Thanks much.

 

[Creativebeth]

I know this thread is from another issue, but I have to chime in.

I ran a race in March 2009.....finished towards the back of the pack, and didn't receive a medal. They ran out of medals, so I was out of luck. If people collected a medal they didn't earn, but were ahead of me, they got MY medal. If people don't have intregrity to only accept the medal they earned, I hope they know that they are hurting fellow runnners. I would never accept a medal that I didn't earn, but that's me. I know the world is full of the 'self-entitled' that think they deserve everything they want. I was running that particular race for Nancy (PaDisneyFan) and was to give that medal to her for her fight with breast cancer. That didn't happen because some selfish person ahead of me.

I have a friend that did a race, and again didn't get a medal.....to find out someone she knows (that ran too) took FIVE medals at the end to 'share' with his kids......guess that was ok too!

Beth

 

[ultramickeymouse]

I don't think you can say one is OK, but the other isn't.

That is a fair statement. That is the point I was making here. The person who I originally discussed said their way is ok but the other isn't. You can't have your cake and eat it to. I was showing how people can perceive an issue very differently.

Another question: If no medals were issued at a race, which of these scenarios would be ok?

 

[runtime]

That is a fair statement. That is the point I was making here. The person who I originally discussed said their way is ok but the other isn't. You can't have your cake and eat it to. I was showing how people can perceive an issue very differently.

Another question: If no medals were issued at a race, which of these scenarios would be ok?

Assuming the scenarios we're talking about are:
1) Bib sale/transfer/give away.
2) "Finishing" a race without completing the entire course

then, I would say:
1) Depends on what the particular race rules say. If they don't allow bib transfers, then no go.
2) This is never okay, regardless of what finisher premiums are given or not given. Crossing the finish area is itself a premium. Part of the very definition of being a race participant is completing the course. It would be like counting a run in baseball without touching all the bases -- in both cases, it is an underlying fundamental of the sport.

 

[ultramickeymouse]

I know this thread is from another issue, but I have to chime in.

I ran a race in March 2009.....finished towards the back of the pack, and didn't receive a medal. They ran out of medals, so I was out of luck.

I have a friend that did a race, and again didn't get a medal.....to find out someone she knows (that ran too) took FIVE medals at the end to 'share' with his kids......guess that was ok too!

Beth

You missed the point that it is the responsibility of the Race Director to have a medal for all runners. I always buy enough for all entrants!

If staff are giving medals to people who didn't sign up and pay for the race is another issue. That is a Race Management issue. If that happened at Disney, who would you blame?

 

[ultramickeymouse]

It would be like counting a run in baseball without touching all the bases -- in both cases, it is an underlying fundamental of the sport.

In your case here, that run would show up on the scoreboard and be listed in the baseball record books for all time. It would effect many people including the other team and possible all teams in baseball.

Someone who doesn't have a chip at a race "doesn't exist". It doesn't effect the overall results, the sex results, or age division results. The person effects themselves. Everyone else gets their medal that registered for the race and gets listed correctly in the official results.

 

[runtime]

In your case here, that run would show up on the scoreboard and be listed in the baseball record books for all time. It would effect many people including the other team and possible all teams in baseball.

Someone who doesn't have a chip at a race "doesn't exist". It doesn't effect the overall results, the sex results, or age division results. The person effects themselves. Everyone else gets their medal that registered for the race and gets listed correctly in the official results.

You are answering the question, "who is negatively impacted by the action?".
I am answering the question, "is it a violation of the race registration agreement?".
I think the latter question is more on topic, no? Who is negatively impacted by rules sounds like a completely different discussion. Maybe it is an input for the creation of rules, but I thought this conversation started from the point where the rules already existed.

It sounds like you are trying to say that the only "rules" that need to be adhered to are those that affect others negatively. I am saying that is completely irrelevant. A rule is a rule. When you register, you agree to them.

I think I outlined this a bit better in my original post. If possible, I'd still appreciate your thoughts on the discrepancy that I think is more apparent there.

ETA: Added the words in green above.

 

[goofyinohio]

Robert - So Again if we are talking official rules here you (thinking it's OK to just get a medal) or Original person you discussed this with (Thinks it's OK to sell/buy a bib when the rules say you can't) are both in the wrong.

You have to Finish the race and whatever that distance is to get a Finisher's Medal and if you take/buy a bib from someone and the race rules say you can't transfer or use someone else's bib then you shouldn't do it.

 

[runtime]

So Again if we are talking official rules here you are both in the wrong. You have to Finish the race and whatever that distance is to get a Finisher's Medal and if you take/buy a bib from someone and the race rules say you can't transfer or use someone else's bib then you shouldn't do it.

Sorry. For clarification, who does "both" refer to in your post above? ultramickeymouse and runtime, or the 2 hypothetical runners?

 

[RogerM213]

Is this the totally useless post thread or did I turn right when I should have turned left?

 

[ultramickeymouse]

Ok, from a rules point both are wrong. My point is you can't come out verbally(like person I mentioned about banditing the race) and condemn one way when they were also violating the rules. Again, those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I am bringing out their issue as well. They felt they did nothing wrong which is not true. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Both may violate rules but only one effects others as well. Violating the transfer rule and wearing the persons chip also effects the Official results by giving a person who NEVER even attempted the race an Official finish. This than effects the overall, sex, and age division permanent records. The records live on forever and medals get lost, sold, and will go away. Throwing away a medal removes any evidence of someones transgression. By effecting the results, one person gets credit for finishing the race. Another gets a medal they didn't register for as well(or maybe they gave it to the person who didn't run and thus they now have a medal from a race they didn't finish).

I just wanted people to realize that there are hidden ramifications to the whole violating the transfer policy.

 

[goofyinohio]

Sorry. For clarification, who does "both" refer to in your post above? ultramickeymouse and runtime, or the 2 hypothetical runners?

Fixed my post so as to not confuse anyone. All I'm saying is if we are going by official rules none of this is either permitted or OK.

 

[ultramickeymouse]

Is this the totally useless post thread or did I turn right when I should have turned left?

It's where you pad your post count for sure