Castaway Cay....why not tender when not able to dock?

[MarkRG]

So what if some people think CC is the greatest thing since sliced bread, or so what if other lines have other options. Readers, remember most everything expressed on the boards is personal opinion and subjective perceptions.

I personally have very little, okay no experience running a cruise line, whether it has two or twenty ships, so I figure the folks that do might have a clue and have worked out all of the angles to come up with the system that works for their company. So CC is not set up for tendering.

Us, we like CC, and don't really much compare to anyone else's island since we choose to sail with DCL because we love the DCL product. As unexposed as we are to the other options, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be big fans of the line we choose. Conversly, sure there are other experiences out there that for others can be better, again all subjective.

Yup, this truly sums up my opinion in a nutshell.

 

[justmestace]

Princess: Princess Cays -- their exclusively private island -- is generally viewed (in terms of overall ambience) as the epitome of a cruise line run private beach resort (incredible landscaping, including a huge grove of palms with hammocks ). Like NCL and HAL, tenders are used so there is no big pier ruining the prisitine, natural feel. Almost all provisions are tendered in.

Not trying to be contrary here, just clarifying. I think what another poster referred to as being "private"...means the whole entire island.
Princess Cays is just the tip of a highly populated island.
You can go outside the "Princess Cays" fenced area, and shop at the stands locals have set up back there.
Princess Cays was very nice....don't get me wrong, I'm not debating AT ALL who has the nicest "private" island.....but as far as a truly "private" island....Castaway Cay IS....Princess Cays is NOT.

 

[justmestace]

Just thought I would also add that if you read the fine print about any cruise line's visit to their private island, it will say visiting the island is "subject to conditions permitting". In other words, they can't always tender in, either.

 

[chip&dale&fun]

I was thinking the same thing, I don't believe they've ever tendered guests on CC, but I do remember hearing about tendering in Cozumel after a hurricane.

We tendered from the Magic in Cozumel after the hurricane but the tender boats were supplied from the shore (not carried aboard ship) and they were very large. They were designed for that purpose and were being used to tender all the ships when the docks were destroyed. It was a terrifying sight to see the damage that a Cat 5 storm did to the docks. Put simply when we tendered, it was not a small affair, and the seas that day were not rough.

As for CC - when any Capt'n or pilot does not want to take his boat or airplane - then I do not want to go there either. Anyone who has been caught in a rip current on a perfectly clear day can attest to the uncertainties of the seas.

It is disappointing that the Magic could not dock, but it happened and it will happen again.

There are many cruise ships to choose from and some of my friends like the services and varieties offered by the "competitors". Personally, I prefer the magic of the MAGIC.

 

[Capt_BJ]

1. With nearly 10 years aboard cutters working the Bahamas/Carib' area including Command of a Cutter....no, the U.S. Coast Guard does not provide 'protection' for CC. This, as stated, would fall to an individual property owner and the RBDF. {But here's something to think about, USCG fairly routinely lands helo's to perform medical evacuations.....why?} (one exception to the protection issue that I'm aware of. A 'former president' sailed DCL and planned to go ashore at CC, and CG provided certain 'assets' to support the SS which is routine....CG patrolled the Nixon Miami estate, and the Bush's)

2. Last time I looked at a nautical chart of the area it was still Gorda Cay and Great Stirup Cay - cruiseline property purchases not withstanding....

3. If you read the fine print of the cruise contract, every one I've read says the cruise line and the Master has the right to cancel or change any port call. The itinerary is not a promise...

4. My former occupation afforded me the opportunity to talk with the Master a couple of times: we could talk ship talk, and he invited DW and I to sit with him after the dinner hour which we did and enjoyed a couple of times....one occasion was a missed CC day. I'd woken up hearing the engines really going at it early in the morning and went up on deck and watched several attempts to safely get to the pier without success. We then hovered for a couple more hours waiting to see if the winds died, but no success. We talked about that, first as a ship handling evolution...technical details on request; but then as an "event". I mentioned that I was surprised how long he tried to do it...the conditions really weren't close...they stank. But the Master pointed out he now had a ship load of people who thought DCL was 'failing'....and he knew that cost in the long run. My point: they try REALLY REALLY hard to make CC, but can't risk damage to the ship or compromising safety. By trying a long time....hopefully a number of pass' see that it just couldn't be done. {For the cost of standby tenders, DCL could just buy a couple of tugs and have them standing by everytime the ship arrives....no, not a serious suggestion. Very $$$$} and the Master is a Disney man .... (I only befriended one and don't know if he's still employed with DCL but at one time he recognized me)

5. One of the unique points of CC is the ability of the ship to moor and have the pass' walk ashore. That is unique in the industry. The other 'private islands' use tenders and many cruisers don't like tenders, or just can't use then. Many of the other islands are built in an area of a bay, or protected harbor. This helps provide protected waters for 'tendering' operations...or what we called in my work 'small boat operations'. Working small boats against the side of large ships in anything other than flat calm seas is something that takes A LOT of practice. Ask any professional marine pilot about the risks of transfering from a boat to a ship .... very dangerous. Gorda Cay has no natural harbor/bay affording protection for something the size of a cruise ship. The protected harbor is the pier.

6. While Sern'ty Bay provides a nice family beach, the primary function is to provide a seawall protecting the pier..... Most of the waters off Gorda Cay are of two depths. Too shallow to safely anchor, and too deep to safely anchor! A ship only has so much chain.... GC only became a viable site for CC if there was a commitment to build a pier.... (IMHO)

Let me say this: I was involved with lanching small boats from ships and transfering people to/from them for 30 years. I worked from the boat deck, to the boat, to the bridge, responsible for the whole thing, from CC to Adak and St Paul's Island in the winter Bering Sea. If it is too windy/ruff to moor at CC, it is too dangerous to consider tendering.....absolutely....

7. Oh, and a ship's tender pilot is not a CG licensed Captain. He's not running a boat in the US nor from a US flagged ship..... It is unlikely that the Master hold a US ticket....

 

[Joan1]

1. With nearly 10 years aboard cutters working the Bahamas/Carib' area including Command of a Cutter....no, the U.S. Coast Guard does not provide 'protection' for CC. This, as stated, would fall to an individual property owner and the RBDF. {But here's something to think about, USCG fairly routinely lands helo's to perform medical evacuations.....why?} (one exception to the protection issue that I'm aware of. A 'former president' sailed DCL and planned to go ashore at CC, and CG provided certain 'assets' to support the SS which is routine....CG patrolled the Nixon Miami estate, and the Bush's)

2. Last time I looked at a nautical chart of the area it was still Gorda Cay and Great Stirup Cay - cruiseline property purchases not withstanding....

3. If you read the fine print of the cruise contract, every one I've read says the cruise line and the Master has the right to cancel or change any port call. The itinerary is not a promise...

4. My former occupation afforded me the opportunity to talk with the Master a couple of times: we could talk ship talk, and he invited DW and I to sit with him after the dinner hour which we did and enjoyed a couple of times....one occasion was a missed CC day. I'd woken up hearing the engines really going at it early in the morning and went up on deck and watched several attempts to safely get to the pier without success. We then hovered for a couple more hours waiting to see if the winds died, but no success. We talked about that, first as a ship handling evolution...technical details on request; but then as an "event". I mentioned that I was surprised how long he tried to do it...the conditions really weren't close...they stank. But the Master pointed out he now had a ship load of people who thought DCL was 'failing'....and he knew that cost in the long run. My point: they try REALLY REALLY hard to make CC, but can't risk damage to the ship or compromising safety. By trying a long time....hopefully a number of pass' see that it just couldn't be done. {For the cost of standby tenders, DCL could just buy a couple of tugs and have them standing by everytime the ship arrives....no, not a serious suggestion. Very $$$$} and the Master is a Disney man .... (I only befriended one and don't know if he's still employed with DCL but at one time he recognized me)

5. One of the unique points of CC is the ability of the ship to moor and have the pass' walk ashore. That is unique in the industry. The other 'private islands' use tenders and many cruisers don't like tenders, or just can't use then. Many of the other islands are built in an area of a bay, or protected harbor. This helps provide protected waters for 'tendering' operations...or what we called in my work 'small boat operations'. Working small boats against the side of large ships in anything other than flat calm seas is something that takes A LOT of practice. Ask any professional marine pilot about the risks of transfering from a boat to a ship .... very dangerous. Gorda Cay has no natural harbor/bay affording protection for something the size of a cruise ship. The protected harbor is the pier.

6. While Sern'ty Bay provides a nice family beach, the primary function is to provide a seawall protecting the pier..... Most of the waters off Gorda Cay are of two depths. Too shallow to safely anchor, and too deep to safely anchor! A ship only has so much chain.... GC only became a viable site for CC if there was a commitment to build a pier.... (IMHO)

Let me say this: I was involved with lanching small boats from ships and transfering people to/from them for 30 years. I worked from the boat deck, to the boat, to the bridge, responsible for the whole thing, from CC to Adak and St Paul's Island in the winter Bering Sea. If it is too windy/ruff to moor at CC, it is too dangerous to consider tendering.....absolutely....

7. Oh, and a ship's tender pilot is not a CG licensed Captain. He's not running a boat in the US nor from a US flagged ship..... It is unlikely that the Master hold a US ticket....

Very well put and thank you for the insider info

 

[MarkRG]

2. Last time I looked at a nautical chart of the area it was still Gorda Cay and Great Stirup Cay - cruiseline property purchases not withstanding....

6. While Sern'ty Bay provides a nice family beach, the primary function is to provide a seawall protecting the pier..... Most of the waters off Gorda Cay are of two depths. Too shallow to safely anchor, and too deep to safely anchor! A ship only has so much chain.... GC only became a viable site for CC if there was a commitment to build a pier.... (IMHO)

Hi Cap'n!

Here's a handy picture to underscore what you're talking about a wee bit.

 

[orlandothebeagle]

What an amazing photo !!

 

[d'Isigny]

I can't speak from the technical side of tendering from ship to shore. However...I did enjoy the detail from the past few posts – thank you. Wish I was a skilled sailor to say I understood it all...but found the info interesting.

I speak from a limited cruising experience - just 8 sailings. I've not sailed to another cruise lines private islands. It would be difficult for me to discuss CC from another cruise lines islands point of view.

Folks...I can speak as a DCL customer that has missed CC - TWICE. Don't feel too sorry for us...we've been blessed to make it THREE times. Both misses...I watched from the upper decks as the Captain attempted to dock. We were disappointed to miss...but...understood. Our second sailing/miss was in 2001. The following day, we attended the Castaway Club mixer when is was only 20-25 people held in one of the smaller lounges. The Captain attended and some passengers made their disappointment known to him - he was very gracious in taking some of their snide (IMHO = selfish) comments. It came my turn to visit and we had a nice 5-10 minute conversation. I thanked him for keeping us safe and finding great weather for what turned out to be an great day. Guess I got some more attention as I was not offering unfriendly fire. I ‘learned’ he does not take missing the island lightly…knew each sailing that missed…and…appeared to take this personally. He explained to me that docking at CC is like pulling into a slip (you can see what he must have meant looking at the image MarkRG posted earlier). On this sailing the winds were strong and he used up a lot of power in attempts to SAFELY dock the ship. He commented that his decision to not dock was mainly to ensure safety of the passengers and crew. He also mentioned very quietly. “If most people knew that when we can’t safely dock…the day on the island is usually miserable”. He checked in with the employees that live on the island…and they were in shelter all day. Appears after the strong winds…came a pounding rain making the staff stay indoors all day.

Guess….for myself…I’ve come to the conclusion that if the ship can’t dock…tendering to the island *could* put my family on the island ---- BUT ---- due to less-than-desirable conditions ---- wishing we were back on the ship.

I also wonder about safely moving over two thousand people back to the ship via tender should weather go from poor to bad. Not sure I’d like to be on an open/closed tender in high current, wind and strong rain. This would not appear to be the experience that Disney wants you to have on your mind spending your last day with them.

 

[Legionair]

Actually this isn't an issue. If you look at the rows of lifeboats on the ships (this includes both DCL and other lines) you will normally see that a few of them (often seems to be 4, 2 on each side) are different from the rest of the lifeboats (higher ceiling, more windows, etc.) These boats are often used for transportation of crew and as additional tenders. You don't board them before they are lowered as you would in a normal lifeboat situation, they lower the boats and they pull along side to load just as the tenders do.

On the Maasdam (Holland America) they used these ships's boats for all of the tendering at Grand Cayman last time I was onboard. I haven't seen Disney use theirs for tendering, but they did lower and use on at Castaway Cay for various purposes when we were there last month and then raised it back onto the Magic before we departed.

Exactly my point. The boats you are referring to are not lifeboats. Trust me, I write maritime safety documents, they are not going to use their lifeboats except in emergency situations. They are dangerous, spartan and not casual passenger worthy.

The ship would probably have to be considerably larger to transport its own tenders in addition to an adequate number of lifeboats.

Jason

 

[orlandothebeagle]

You gotta respect the Catain !!!!!! Yes, he's the man, whatever he says goes! I can not believe somebody would make any comment never mind a snide one, but d isigny proves my point when working the public, for every annoying person there is a nice and understanding one to make up for it

 

[Wendor]

Exactly my point. The boats you are referring to are not lifeboats. Trust me, I write maritime safety documents, they are not going to use their lifeboats except in emergency situations. They are dangerous, spartan and not casual passenger worthy.

The ship would probably have to be considerably larger to transport its own tenders in addition to an adequate number of lifeboats.

Jason

Sorry to correct you, but the boats I am referring to, while dual purpose, are most definitely still lifeboats. On the Maasdam one of the ones we used for tendering was also the lifeboat for our assigned emergency station. Same color, equipment, and everything else as the "normal" lifeboats...just roomier and more windows (though roomier wouldn't have helped in an emergency since the dual-purpose boats are assigned more passengers so they'd be just as crowded in an evacuation scenario)

We actually got to joke about it a lot since how many cruise ship passengers can say that they were actually *IN* their lifeboat during their cruise.

On the Magic and the Wonder the dual purpose boats are most definitely lifeboats, Disney just chooses not to use them for tendering. The primary reason, I suspect, is that they can contract for local tenders with larger capacity. More capacity per boat = fewer tender trips = less tender wait time = happier passengers. Not every cruise line goes this route, either because of too few tender boats for hire or not wanting to pay an outside company, so last month in Grand Cayman we still saw ships using their dual-purpose lifeboats for tendering.

Your second point is incorrect as well. The Maasdam carried a full complement of lifeboats (of course) which as I stated includes 4 dual purpose boats. Those dual purpose boats were the ONLY boats used for tendering at both Grand Cayman and Half Moon Cay. So a modern cruise ship can most certainly meet both the requirements of "an adequate number of lifeboats" and "transporting it's own tenders". Technically they had more tendering capability than they needed since I think they only used 3 of the 4 dual-purpose lifeboats. My assumption at the time was that they were holding the last one in reserve for on-demand ferrying of important crew or port officials since it was put into the water but didn't participate in the tendering rotation.

 

[Legionair]

Sorry to correct you, but the boats I am referring to, while dual purpose, are most definitely still lifeboats. On the Maasdam one of the ones we used for tendering was also the lifeboat for our assigned emergency station. Same color, equipment, and everything else as the "normal" lifeboats...just roomier and more windows (though roomier wouldn't have helped in an emergency since the dual-purpose boats are assigned more passengers so they'd be just as crowded in an evacuation scenario)

We actually got to joke about it a lot since how many cruise ship passengers can say that they were actually *IN* their lifeboat during their cruise.

On the Magic and the Wonder the dual purpose boats are most definitely lifeboats, Disney just chooses not to use them for tendering. The primary reason, I suspect, is that they can contract for local tenders with larger capacity. More capacity per boat = fewer tender trips = less tender wait time = happier passengers. Not every cruise line goes this route, either because of too few tender boats for hire or not wanting to pay an outside company, so last month in Grand Cayman we still saw ships using their dual-purpose lifeboats for tendering.

Your second point is incorrect as well. The Maasdam carried a full complement of lifeboats (of course) which as I stated includes 4 dual purpose boats. Those dual purpose boats were the ONLY boats used for tendering at both Grand Cayman and Half Moon Cay. So a modern cruise ship can most certainly meet both the requirements of "an adequate number of lifeboats" and "transporting it's own tenders". Technically they had more tendering capability than they needed since I think they only used 3 of the 4 dual-purpose lifeboats. My assumption at the time was that they were holding the last one in reserve for on-demand ferrying of important crew or port officials since it was put into the water but didn't participate in the tendering rotation.

If that's true, and I can not argue if it is or not, then they must have either gotten some sort of IMO waiver.

I can promise you that when you have emergency equipment, the governing body wants it only to be used in emergencies. They don't want to risk the items not working when they are called upon.

That's why they usually test certain lifeboats when they are in port. It is a mandate that they get tested on a certain schedule.

Repeated use of them in non-emergency situations just geometrically reduces their total life.

Jason

 

[Wendor]

If that's true, and I can not argue if it is or not, then they must have either gotten some sort of IMO waiver.

Nope. No special waivers required. You seem to be misinformed.

This is a 100% normal operating procedure in the cruise industry.

Check out this like for some information a picture of one of Holland America's "lifeboat tenders"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship's_tender

Here's a link to a technical specs sheet (pdf format) from one of the companies that make them:
http://www.schat-harding.com/doc/Diverse/Cruise Tenders produktark skjermfil okt. 06.pdf

Another manufacturer:
http://www.hatecke.de/documents/VDMA-Hatecke.pdf


Warning: frustration venting ahead

I've been trying to be patient and help correct your misinformation, but I do admit that I am starting to get a bit frustrated with your refusal to accept facts and reality. As a wise man once said "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". I appreciate that you say you "write maritime safety documents", but perhaps you need to step outside your office, discard your preconceived notions and look around. Go out on a cruise ship and look at what they actually do. Call a cruise line and ask. Call the governing body you write your documents for and ask. Get some firsthand data. These boats are indeed lifeboats...and are indeed used for tendering as well.

OK, frustration venting mode off.

 

[beachblanket]

Nope. No special waivers required. You seem to be misinformed.

This is a 100% normal operating procedure in the cruise industry.

Check out this like for some information a picture of one of Holland America's "lifeboat tenders"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship's_tender

Here's a link to a technical specs sheet (pdf format) from one of the companies that make them:
http://www.schat-harding.com/doc/Diverse/Cruise Tenders produktark skjermfil okt. 06.pdf

Another manufacturer:
http://www.hatecke.de/documents/VDMA-Hatecke.pdf


Warning: frustration venting ahead

I've been trying to be patient and help correct your misinformation, but I do admit that I am starting to get a bit frustrated with your refusal to accept facts and reality. As a wise man once said "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". I appreciate that you say you "write maritime safety documents", but perhaps you need to step outside your office, discard your preconceived notions and look around. Go out on a cruise ship and look at what they actually do. Call a cruise line and ask. Call the governing body you write your documents for and ask. Get some firsthand data. These boats are indeed lifeboats...and are indeed used for tendering as well.

OK, frustration venting mode off.

Hear, hear...thank you for responding with inarguable fact to the "Disney can do no wrong and anything they don't do can't be correct" crowd. Their denial sometimes drives me nuts, too!!!

 

[Wendor]

Hear, hear...thank you for responding with inarguable fact to the "Disney can do no wrong and anything they don't do can't be correct" crowd. Their denial sometimes drives me nuts, too!!!

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Please don't read too much into what I said. I was not weighing in on whether or not Disney should tender into CC if conditions are too bad for the ship to dock.

I was only addressing the technical question of "can a cruise ship carry their own tenders and carry enough of them to handle all of their passengers" and then got dragged into a discussion of whether or not the tender boats carried by the cruise ships are also considered lifeboats and would be used as such in an emergency.



What the heck, I was going to stay out of the rest of it, but why not.....

Can Disney do wrong? Of course they can. I worked for Disney during the early days of the Eisner era and have very strong opinions of some of the things that happened back then. (I still use the phrase "Happiest place on earth.....OR ELSE!") As a result I do suffer somewhat from what one author called the "Oz effect". I love the magic, but sometimes it's missing something for me because I've spent so much time behind the curtain.

So to the question at hand...tendering into CC if the ship can't dock.

First and foremost I am 100% behind the captain. Anything he's not comfortable with I'm not comfortable with, so if he feels docking is unsafe then so be it.

Could Disney tender cast members, supplies, and passengers from the ship to CC and back? Of course they could. But they have CHOSEN not to. I'm sure that Disney considered a lot of factors in making that choice, and just like a lot of their choices (no casino, rotational dining, etc.) there will be some people who agree and some who disagree.

In this particular case I happen to agree. I grew up in Florida and spent a lot of time in the Caribbean and my wife lived on Antigua for a spell. As a result we know first hand just how UNpleasant it can be to be on a small Caribbean island when conditions aren't perfect. I think that Disney provides a better passenger experience on the ship on a "missed CC" day then the passengers would have had on the island. Now could Disney do both on bad weather days - let the passengers who want to go ashore and provide activities for the rest on the ship? Of course they could, but it would require more cast members to handle both sets of activities and, of course, more expense for Disney means higher prices to us.

But if you are one of the ones who disagree with Disney's choice, then by all means I encourage you strongly....let Disney know. Like any company they have their faults, but one thing I can assure you is that Disney does listen to what their guests have to say. My wife and I have written to Disney more times than I can count to tell them about some aspect, sometimes bad but mostly good, regarding a park visit, hotel stay, or cruise we just completed. In every single case we have received a response from Disney, sometimes just a "Thank you for letting us know" note, and sometimes a follow-up phone call to get more specifics about what we were either raving about or complaining about.

Disney may not change overnight...remember they have to try and make choices that will not only make the majority of their guests happy, but also their stockholders. That's just the way life is when you're a public company. But I guarantee you that the fastest way to get Disney to take a good hard look at the "tendering into Castaway Cay" question is for a large number of people to all write to Disney and say "this is what we'd like you to add even it it means it costs us more"

 

[WDWLVR]

So to the question at hand...tendering into CC if the ship can't dock.

First and foremost I am 100% behind the captain. Anything he's not comfortable with I'm not comfortable with, so if he feels docking is unsafe then so be it.

I agree with this 100%.

 

[SMDent]

Thank you all for the expert observations.

It is amazing to peek behind the curtains sometimes. I have found that what "appears" to be easily done, is anything but easy; be it stand in front of a crowded theater, dock a ship, or cook and serve a meal in a dinning room full of people, that's moving beneath your feet.

ETA: There is often many reasons for why something cannot be done, although to the "layman" or typical tourist, it appears that it would be easy. I have watched a couple times on cruises that yes, the "tenders" got lowered, often to complete some portion of mandatory safety training for some of the crew. You have to keep training and drilling emergency procedures to be able to do them in an actual emergency.

 

[justmestace]

I don't know if someone has already said this.....and I obviously don't know everything (in fact, I really know very little about anything)....but....

Wouldn't the experience on Castaway Cay be somewhat diminished if passengers were to tender in? People wouldn't be able to purchase anything on the island, since the shops on CC are linked to the ship by fiber optic cable. I'm certain that some people definitely would not be happy with that. Or what about the sound equipment for the DJ? No music, no dancing?? Or the same fiber optic equipment to charge your drink purchases.....Castaway Cay without a Konk Kooler or a cold beer? I'd love to see the reaction to THAT!

Considering the amount of supplies, crew, cast (Mickey & Minnie!) etc, that are brought off the ship for that one particular day, I really just don't see that it would be sensible.

I think for any cruise line and their "private" island, it has to be an "either/or" choice. One or the other, dock or tender.
Disney has chosen to dock and has their entire operation set up for it that way. To occasionally tender in would just not be practical at all.

 

[mmouse37]

When I sailed on Princess cruise line they did indeed use the LIFEBOATS as tenders....they were lowered onto the water and passengers exited from the ship into the lifeboat and were tendered to the islands. This was at every port that needed tendering.

They used several at a time. The ones they used were the higher ones with a domed type ceiling. They were definitely the ship's lifeboats but were being used for tenders.

And...DCL routinely takes down their lifeboats and uses them in the various harbors when we are docked (not to tender passengers, but I assume to practice). I have seen this countless times on our 16 DCL cruises.