Canon SLR Digital Rebel

[lmok]

Can anyone give me your opinion about the Canon SLR Digital Rebal?

 

[Kelly Grannell]

The original Rebel or RebelXT?

 

[JR6ooo4]

I like it well enough to spend another $1200 on lenses!
Mikeeee

check out my threads for samples:

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1111611

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1110823

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1104027

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1101326

feel free to ask if you ahve any other questions...
Mikeeee

 

[Kelly Grannell]

true. Even the original Rebel, I like it enough to spend more than 3G on lenses and accessories.

 

[Kelly Grannell]

PS: about 60% of dSLR sold in the world are Canon.

 

[captaincrash]

I had a D-rebel.

It served very well and now I have an old 10D. The Rebel usually has a silver painted polycarbonate body over a plastic chassis (see photos below). I actually did not like the ocassional body creep when I grasped the camera. Also, there was a certain sensation of bulk without substance that I grew weary of. And since these things seem to depreciate so quickly with their rapid model replacements (every 18 months like clock-work) - I opted to skip a generation or two since yesterday's 10D was considered "state of the art" for a mainstream prosumer DSLR at $2200~2000 only 20 months ago! In 20 months the idea of moving to 8MP was NOT worth while to me from a 6MP format - but I wanted to be free of the body creep and I wanted a solid feeling black magnesium body. So - I sold my D-rebel for $490 and bought the 10D for about $100 more... which was $1400~1500 less then the 10D was when I bought my D-rebel new!

But on the other hand if you're actually talking about a 350xt DSLR... that body is a bit more solid feeling - while at the same time unnaturally small in my hands.

Of course, being small is an advantage unto itself! The 350xt is otherwise a tour de force of features IMHO... it has Digic 2; 8MP; and otherwise outperforms my 10D. But it is not as solid a body as it is still polycarbbonate... and IMHO it has a wierd looking and cheap feeling mode dial. I guess it boils down to what aspects you prefer and weigh in with. I think you would have to be a bit of a nut to do as I did and get a 10D rather then the 350xt or 20D as a replacement for a digital rebel. I had my own sense of value at the time and I did not like the 20D enough to plop down another few hundred which I expected to evaporate in a few months when it's replacement (the 30D) came out. And now that the 30D has arrived I am totally underwelmed by the near identical performance profile of the 30D versus the 20D. The only things about the 30D that I like are the 2.5" LCD and clear statement from Canon that the shutter life is 100,000 actuations MTBF. I remain mildly guarded about the rumored 35-50,000 actuation lifespan of the digital rebel/350xt/10D and 20D. Of course, a shutter assembly swap is just $180-300 ... and then you are back to a nearly new DSLR body with ZERO actuations on the new shutter! That is... if Canon does not sell you on a new mirror assembly too for another $200+!

Before I upgrade from the 10D into something more powerful I need a compelling step up in capability and features which matter to me. IE... 6MP to 8MP is not going to cut it for me. And 6MP to the 5D size at 12.7MP makes sense to me - but the other considerations do not fit for my taste (IE ... $3K and a tradional pro format w/o onboard flash). IF the 5D were under 2K and had an on-board flash I might be salivating for one.

I guess I am really quite happy with the 10D for my purposes, skill level and idea of needs. For now I think I am still learning a great deal about digital photography and my own evolving personal needs. It's fun - but a long adventurous journey.

I say - as Kelly pointed out - with Canon dominating 60% of the DSLR market ---- that alone says a LOT about whether the Canon glass and Rebel DSLRs are good options.

DO you want to reply with any specific questions on DSLRs ?

Disassembled digital rebel....

Front view...

Penta=mirror design with focus point indicators

 

[lmok]

I had a D-rebel.

It served very well and now I have an old 10D. The Rebel usually has a silver painted polycarbonate body over a plastic chassis (see photos below). I actually did not like the ocassional body creep when I grasped the camera. Also, there was a certain sensation of bulk without substance that I grew weary of. And since these things seem to depreciate so quickly with their rapid model replacements (every 18 months like clock-work) - I opted to skip a generation or two since yesterday's 10D was considered "state of the art" for a mainstream prosumer DSLR at $2200~2000 only 20 months ago! In 20 months the idea of moving to 8MP was NOT worth while to me from a 6MP format - but I wanted to be free of the body creep and I wanted a solid feeling black magnesium body. So - I sold my D-rebel for $490 and bought the 10D for about $100 more... which was $1400~1500 less then the 10D was when I bought my D-rebel new!

But on the other hand if you're actually talking about a 350xt DSLR... that body is a bit more solid feeling - while at the same time unnaturally small in my hands.

Of course, being small is an advantage unto itself! The 350xt is otherwise a tour de force of features IMHO... it has Digic 2; 8MP; and otherwise outperforms my 10D. But it is not as solid a body as it is still polycarbbonate... and IMHO it has a wierd looking and cheap feeling mode dial. I guess it boils down to what aspects you prefer and weigh in with. I think you would have to be a bit of a nut to do as I did and get a 10D rather then the 350xt or 20D as a replacement for a digital rebel. I had my own sense of value at the time and I did not like the 20D enough to plop down another few hundred which I expected to evaporate in a few months when it's replacement (the 30D) came out. And now that the 30D has arrived I am totally underwelmed by the near identical performance profile of the 30D versus the 20D. The only things about the 30D that I like are the 2.5" LCD and clear statement from Canon that the shutter life is 100,000 actuations MTBF. I remain mildly guarded about the rumored 35-50,000 actuation lifespan of the digital rebel/350xt/10D and 20D. Of course, a shutter assembly swap is just $180-300 ... and then you are back to a nearly new DSLR body with ZERO actuations on the new shutter! That is... if Canon does not sell you on a new mirror assembly too for another $200+!

Before I upgrade from the 10D into something more powerful I need a compelling step up in capability and features which matter to me. IE... 6MP to 8MP is not going to cut it for me. And 6MP to the 5D size at 12.7MP makes sense to me - but the other considerations do not fit for my taste (IE ... $3K and a tradional pro format w/o onboard flash). IF the 5D were under 2K and had an on-board flash I might be salivating for one.

I guess I am really quite happy with the 10D for my purposes, skill level and idea of needs. For now I think I am still learning a great deal about digital photography and my own evolving personal needs. It's fun - but a long adventurous journey.

I say - as Kelly pointed out - with Canon dominating 60% of the DSLR market ---- that alone says a LOT about whether the Canon glass and Rebel DSLRs are good options.

DO you want to reply with any specific questions on DSLRs ?

Disassembled digital rebel....

Front view...

Penta=mirror design with focus point indicators

Wow, You sure did give me something to think about. I am printing this off and will check out all of this. I sure do appreciate you taking the time to give me all of this information. Thank You, Thank You, Thank You.

 

[captaincrash]

Wow, You sure did give me something to think about. I am printing this off and will check out all of this. I sure do appreciate you taking the time to give me all of this information. Thank You, Thank You, Thank You.

Glad you thought there was something of merit posted here (by everyone)....

However... I suspect the community has several folks ready to address any specific DSLR questions you may have. So in the hours and days to come please post them if you have any.

In the meanwhile here are some interior photos on a 10D to compare against the digital rebel interior images. NOTE the metal frame around the shutter assembly, bottom and back.

I'd say the 10D is constructed more heavily... but the drebel being almost all plastic/polycarbonate is NOT necessarily bad or less durable. It's different... and I prefer the difference in feel and solid construction of the 10D.

AND... in advance... here is a link to a relevant photo.net thread with everyday people posting their opinions comparing a Canon 350xt versus a 10D. http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00FivD&tag=

And here is a review comparing a Digital Rebel to a 10D http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=2106

I kno.... to some this may seem out of date since the 10D is 3rd generation removed from the 30D ... but the 10d was introduced just over 3 years ago in March of 2003? It is a fantastic DSLR and a raging BARGAIN wrapped in magnesium alloy! 3 years ago all the folks touting their 30D and 5D odies would have been grinning the same with their 10D bodies!!! The only trick is getting a good copy with life left on the shutter and no abuse to the thing. If you buy on ebay ensure the seller qualifies FULLY for the $1000 Paypal extended protection... and even better if the seller offers a money back guarantee AND you have a local tech who can tell you the number of actuations the shutter has really seen. I found one locally but long after I had my 10D. I should swing by to see if he can tell me the number of actuations my ody has had.

 

[boBQuincy]

Rebel XT - a fine camera with a difficult settings system. If you will mostly leave it on Auto or P it is just great. If you plan to play around with changing the settings a lot then the 20D or 30D might suit you better, they have a much better interface for changing settings.

Image quality is almost identical, I doubt anyone could identify if an image came from a 20D, 30D, or a Rebel XT.


boB

 

[Kelly Grannell]

20D vs 30D yes, XT vs 20D/30D is very easy to tell... but only at ISO800 and backlit situations.

 

[boBQuincy]

20D vs 30D yes, XT vs 20D/30D is very easy to tell... but only at ISO800 and backlit situations.

Did you read this in a review or is this from personal experience? Although the sensors are not identical, from the reviews I have read there is no detectable difference. Why would backlight make a difference?


boB

 

[Kelly Grannell]

this is from personal experience. I've just bought an XT as my back up camera and returned it soon after (and get another 30D instead)

I have to re-iterate that in backlit situation it's a bit more difficult for the XT to focus than 20D/30D. Yes it "beep"s but the focus is not as accurate as 20D/30D.

As far as noise goes, the grain on the XT is more visible than 30D at ISO 800 and ISO 1600 for prints around 8x12 and at ISO 3200 (you can simulate ISO 3200 on the XT by giving -1 EV while taking picture the picture and boost the levels on Photoshop) you'll see a great difference even at 4x6 print.

 

[boBQuincy]

Most interesting! Is Canon not telling us something?

We have an XT but haven't used it a lot yet. I wonder if RAW images from an XT and 20D would show the same differences or if it might be partly in the jpg processing?

I have tested the simulated ISO 3200 on my 10D and found a difference between the simulation and Canon's implementation. Canon's method (more amplification of the CMOS signal ?) works better than boosting the levels in Photoshop, especially when it is a RAW image with the extra 4 bits of light levels.


boB

 

[WillCAD]

Rebel XT - a fine camera with a difficult settings system. If you will mostly leave it on Auto or P it is just great. If you plan to play around with changing the settings a lot then the 20D or 30D might suit you better, they have a much better interface for changing settings.

Image quality is almost identical, I doubt anyone could identify if an image came from a 20D, 30D, or a Rebel XT.


boB

I have to disagree with you slightly on this one, Bob.

I agree that the 20D/30D have an easier interface, mostly because of the thumb wheel. But that doesn't mean that the interface on the Rebels is difficult; I find it very easy to operate in the field, far superior to my old Fuji S602.

Pros like you and Kelley tend to push your equipment to its limits, because your abilities often exceed those of the equipment. But casual photographers of limited ability like me do exactly the opposite - the camera is smarter than we are, and it's our abilities that limit us, not the equipment.

The Digital Rebel 300D and 350D were designed for casual photographers who want to take pics of their vacations, their homes, their kids soccer games and graduations, and the occasional neighborhood event (fire, flood, alien attack, etc.) The Rebels were designed with simplicity in mind, to cater to a less advanced class of photographer.

The fact that some of you pros, with your higher expectations, even consider one of the Rebels as a weekend or backup camera speaks volumes about how well Canon put these cameras together, but we should try to remember that the Rebels were intentionally designed with the simpler interface, the cheaper, lighter body, and the less capable firmware, all to make it affordable enough for the average Schmo like me to step up to a DSLR without requiring a 3-week course to understand what all the lights and dials do.

That being said, I still think the Rebels are pretty sophisticated cameras that require a lot more knowledge of basic photography (i.e. composition and exposure) than a $100 P&S.

 

[Kelly Grannell]

Most interesting! Is Canon not telling us something?

We have an XT but haven't used it a lot yet. I wonder if RAW images from an XT and 20D would show the same differences or if it might be partly in the jpg processing?

boB

It was tested using RAW and the difference in certain shades of colours is more apparent than another.

 

[Kelly Grannell]

Pros like you and Kelly tend to push your equipment to its limits, because your abilities often exceed those of the equipment. But casual photographers of limited ability like me do exactly the opposite - the camera is smarter than we are, and it's our abilities that limit us, not the equipment.

The Digital Rebel 300D and 350D were designed for casual photographers who want to take pics of their vacations, their homes, their kids soccer games and graduations, and the occasional neighborhood event (fire, flood, alien attack, etc.) The Rebels were designed with simplicity in mind, to cater to a less advanced class of photographer.

That being said, I still think the Rebels are pretty sophisticated cameras that require a lot more knowledge of basic photography (i.e. composition and exposure) than a $100 P&S.

I have to agree with WillCAD. As much as I want to complain about XT being not good enough etc. Please bear in mind that it's not good enough for my purpose of picture taking, which usually I get paid for.

If I'm 100% sure I don't get paid to take pics, I'll be content with RebelXT.

I agree with BobQuincy that XT is less intuitive than 30D, and I also feel that the image quality is not as god as 30D, but for a not-paid photographers, is the 30D really 50% better (because it is 50% higher in price)? I think not.

 

[captaincrash]

..... - the camera is smarter than we are, and it's our abilities that limit us, not the equipment.

The Digital Rebel 300D and 350D were designed for casual photographers who want to take pics of their vacations, their homes, their kids soccer games and graduations, and the occasional neighborhood event (fire, flood, alien attack, etc.) The Rebels were designed with simplicity in mind, to cater to a less advanced class of photographer.

...... but we should try to remember that the Rebels were intentionally designed with the simpler interface, the cheaper, lighter body, and the less capable firmware, all to make it affordable enough for the average Schmo like me to step up to a DSLR without requiring a 3-week course to understand what all the lights and dials do.

That being said, I still think the Rebels are pretty sophisticated cameras that require a lot more knowledge of basic photography (i.e. composition and exposure) than a $100 P&S.

Well....

I had to chime in with tounge in cheek folks to sort of loosely agree with WILLCAD... in spite of anything I might have posted anywhere else here or otherwise. Seeing as I usually do NOT get paid when I shoot - and that ocassionally I DO get paid for shooting... I have to agree that these little DSLRs are wonderful and powerful little critters. In the hands of a highly skilled photographer (pro or not does not really matter) who also has a gifted eye (something I am still working on ... to little avail! )... ANY camera can produce amazing ... or at least interesting results. I commend the folks who have crafted our DSLRs and the traditional film cameras that we have all so loved and cherished.

I myself align very closely to WILLCADs' casual description of the shooter who ... and I quote... "...who want to take pics of their vacations, their homes, their kids soccer games and graduations, and the occasional neighborhood event (fire, flood, alien attack, etc.) ...". Just for the record though... I actually am not looking forward to or waiting for shooting an alien attack, fire or flood). I'll leave THAT opportunity to the other pulitzer prize winning photographer to snap! I prefer my skin unwrinkled by heat, water or alien ray gun. So - as a casual enthusiast who used to cradle my humble digital rebel as the 9th wonder of the world... I must proclaim that ANY DSLR or equipment that adds smiles to your life is well worth the moola... so pull out your wallet or handbag and plunk it down already for that next TOY! LOL!!!!

Seriously, I was very very very proud of my digital rebel and the hunk of frosty glass I had that was the Canon 28-200 I mounted on it ... with a fosty looking low grade Hoya filter that passed only 85% of the light that struck it! LOL... yeah... I was (and still am) a virtual "kno.. nuttin'" enthusiast. But at least I remain a happy one?

I would like to compliment everyone (Kelly and Bob in particular on this thread) as I find your remarks to be of great interest. Bob questioning the sensor difference....

Did you read this in a review or is this from personal experience? Although the sensors are not identical, from the reviews I have read there is no detectable difference. Why would backlight make a difference?

... was simultaneously 1) what I was musing and 2nd) sort of humorous. Kelly's response was also equally entertaining and thought provoking. I'm going to have to gather a pal or two to put together a comparison that tests these assertions (one day - if ever)... just to see how it pans out. FOr the moment - I tend to think there should be an awfully small difference between the various output. But a virtual world of difference with handling qualities and other performance aspects. That said .... remember, I'm just another friendly "kno-nuttin'" tout from the peanut gallery! Please don't skewer me for casual remarks while I sip my morning hot coco?!

 

[ChristusG]

I have the XT and I am very happy with it. I've been learning the ropes of the XT for about a year now....have done lots of shoots with my daughter, even some non-family shoots and I'm working my way towards a business. I have seen great photographers take amazing shots out of an ordinary point and shoot camera because they know what they are doing. My point is, you have to KNOW the camera. I have seen so many "average joes" walking around with DSLR's. And their photos taken with a $1000 camera look exactly like someone else's taken with a $200 one. Why? Because they just turn it to auto and start snapping away. A DSLR will do nothing for someone who doesnt know their camera. I think that the Rebel XT is an excellent camera. Maybe one day when I start making some money doing photography, I will think of upgrading.....just so that I can get less noise at higher ISO's. But until then, I am happily snapping away with my XT.

Oh, and a word of advice.....dont stick with the kit lens. It is not very sharp.

 

[JR6ooo4]

I have the XT and I am very happy with it. I've been learning the ropes of the XT for about a year now....have done lots of shoots with my daughter, even some non-family shoots and I'm working my way towards a business. I have seen great photographers take amazing shots out of an ordinary point and shoot camera because they know what they are doing. My point is, you have to KNOW the camera. I have seen so many "average joes" walking around with DSLR's. And their photos taken with a $1000 camera look exactly like someone else's taken with a $200 one. Why? Because they just turn it to auto and start snapping away. A DSLR will do nothing for someone who doesnt know their camera. I think that the Rebel XT is an excellent camera. Maybe one day when I start making some money doing photography, I will think of upgrading.....just so that I can get less noise at higher ISO's. But until then, I am happily snapping away with my XT.

Oh, and a word of advice.....dont stick with the kit lens. It is not very sharp.

Some very good points...

but the kit lens does very well inside it's sweet spot. f8-f11

mikeeee

 

[ChristusG]

Wow, that snake shot is awesome!!!!! I guess I never found the sweet spot because I never really shoot in those ranges.