Can we talk about how bad FastPass+ is?

[Angel Ariel]

If you started a thread on DIS about which rides should go and what rides should be added, I doubt you'd get a plurality to agree, much less a majority.

Very true...but OTOH, if someone started a thread asking which they'd prefer - a billion dollars worth of new attractions, or a billion dollars spent on what is largely behind the scenes IT - I would bet there would be much closer to a majority there.

Of course there would be disagreement on what rides/where, etc...but I think most would prefer more guest experiences over IT.

 

[Davey Jones II]

Very true...but OTOH, if someone started a thread asking which they'd prefer - a billion dollars worth of new attractions, or a billion dollars spent on what is largely behind the scenes IT - I would bet there would be much closer to a majority there.

Of course there would be disagreement on what rides/where, etc...but I think most would prefer more guest experiences over IT.

Someone DID start such a poll. It was on these boards, and the overwhelming majority (91%) picked new attractions/lands over a new IT system.

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3231102&highlight=poll+new+lands

Now is it safe to say that the average park guest would have the same preference? Think about why people go to theme parks. Is it to experience the new whiz bang reservation system, or is it to experience the rides and attractions and lands?

 

[OtherScott]

Someone DID start such a poll. It was on these boards, and the overwhelming majority (91%) picked new attractions/lands over a new IT system.

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3231102&highlight=poll+new+lands

Now is it safe to say that the average park guest would have the same preference? Think about why people go to theme parks. Is it to experience the new whiz bang reservation system, or is it to experience the rides and attractions and lands?

What if the new reservation system allowed more people to experience the existing rides, attractions and lands in a more satisfactory way?

For anything to be good for Disney, it has to be good for Disney's customers. The aren't selling fuel, groceries or medicine.

 

[DisneyPr]

Does anyone know when you can make a fastpass for BOG lunch? I have tried and i am unable to log in. Do you also know how successful it is to get a fastpass for lunch? Thanks!

 

[Davey Jones II]

What if the new reservation system allowed more people to experience the existing rides, attractions and lands in a more satisfactory way?

You mean, have as strong an impact on the guest experience as new lands and attractions? Sounds like a huge IF, considering that at least as many people complain about this new IT system as the ones who seem to like it.

Unless the execution is botched, most people welcome new attractions with excitement and anticipation. A new reservation/FP system? That's more a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Hmmm...maybe, instead of opening Cars Land, Disney should have introduced Magic Bands and FP+ in DCA . Yeah sure, that would have made it a worthy sister park to the mighty Disneyland!

For anything to be good for Disney, it has to be good for Disney's customers. The aren't selling fuel, groceries or medicine.

Yes but sometimes they get it wrong because (among other reasons):

a) Their priorities are screwed up. For example, focusing on selling more merch instead of replacing some of the crappy, unpopular "attractions" which long ago overstayed their welcome. Or building more DVCs while dragging their feet building new lands/rides. Or opening new, malnourished parks overseas instead of first fully developing the stateside parks which were malnourished from the start.

b) They take us for granted. It's not "if we build it, they will come." It's more like: "whether we build it or not, they will still come."

c) They are thinking short term, with an eye to the all-important next quarterly report, rather than thinking more long term.

 

[Davey Jones II]

Having recently been diagnosed with severe anaemia that will take 6 months of treatment to get me back to something resembling 'normal' energy levels and only 6 weeks in when I take my trip and still suffering from extreme tiredness the FP+ has turned out to be a godsend, I travel alone and racing to the popular rides at RD will wipe me out for the rest of the day, is that fair? It's the same for older couples who aren't as fast as youngsters, or a single parent with a child too old for a stroller, but, to young to sprint as fast as an older child or adult. So, the solution is to bring back the legacy FP and still have the FP+. Allocate a percentage of every hour to both systems, so everyone is bloody happy. Just programme the machines to recognise that someone already has three FP+ so they can't get an extra until they have used the three.

Some combination of the two could work.
Do they allow people to "sprint" at rope drop now? That's not what I've seen in the past. Although it's true that some can go faster than others, even if no one is actually running.

 

[Angel Ariel]

What if the new reservation system allowed more people to experience the existing rides, attractions and lands in a more satisfactory way?

For anything to be good for Disney, it has to be good for Disney's customers. The aren't selling fuel, groceries or medicine.

I can tell you without a doubt that if WDW becomes full ride reservation, and you have to have a schedule of rides for the entire day, that maybe what causes me to stay away from wdw. I have no desire to have that scheduled of a vacation.

 

[OtherScott]

You mean, have as strong an impact on the guest experience as new lands and attractions? Sounds like a huge IF, considering that at least as many people complain about this new IT system as the ones who seem to like it. Unless the execution is botched, most people welcome new attractions with excitement and anticipation. A new reservation/FP system? That's more a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Hmmm...maybe, instead of opening Cars Land, Disney should have introduced Magic Bands and FP+ in DCA . Yeah sure, that would have made it a worthy sister park to the mighty Disneyland! Yes but sometimes they get it wrong because (among other reasons): a) Their priorities are screwed up. For example, focusing on selling more merch instead of replacing some of the crappy, unpopular "attractions" which long ago overstayed their welcome. Or building more DVCs while dragging their feet building new lands/rides. Or opening new, malnourished parks overseas instead of first fully developing the stateside parks which were malnourished from the start. b) They take us for granted. It's not "if we build it, they will come." It's more like: "whether we build it or not, they will still come." c) They are thinking short term, with an eye to the all-important next quarterly report, rather than thinking more long term.

FP+ may be a lot of things, but a short term plan to boost next quarterly/annual report ain't one of them.

Opinions matter, but only commensurate with the action they cause.

As many complain as the ones who like it, in a self-selecting group, is a win. Especially when the complainers are still buying.

 

[Davey Jones II]

FP+ may be a lot of things, but a short term plan to boost next quarterly/annual report ain't one of them.

Opinions matter, but only commensurate with the action they cause.

As many complain as the ones who like it, in a self-selecting group, is a win. Especially when the complainers are still buying.

Right, I would place FP+ under a) and b), not c). After all, it did cost a frickin' fortune.

I don't understand your second point. If half your customers hate it and half like it, then why spend all that money? In terms of customer satisfaction, the net effect is neutral (and I would argue, in the case of FP+, that it's neutral at best) yet you still spent a ton of $$$. Why not invest in something that will likely please 90% of your customers (e.g. well executed attractions)?

In addition, I would argue that the full impact of pissing off your most loyal customers (i.e., most of the avid users of Legacy Fast Pass) will only be seen down the road.

 

[Davey Jones II]

I can tell you without a doubt that if WDW becomes full ride reservation, and you have to have a schedule of rides for the entire day, that maybe what causes me to stay away from wdw. I have no desire to have that scheduled of a vacation.

Perish the thought!

 

[Shaden]

That's called marketing spin. Of course they will say that on T.V.

Disney introduced this new reservation system because they see the parks as little more than a giant mall. They believe that the MBs make it easier for people to buy stuff, and that's what they want: they want to sell us more stuff while we're there. The data mining is also part of this process.

Again, if they really wanted to improve the guest experience, they would have spent the money on new lands/attractions and plussing of existing attractions. High attendance numbers mean fabulous profits for the WDC. I believe that the company has an obligation to put a good chunk of those profits into excellent attractions which will improve ride capacity, to absorb more of those crowds. I believe that is a far better solution than redistributing crowds by fooling them into getting in FP+ lines for the mediocre attractions which should have been replaced long ago. Call me naive or foolish if you disagree with these simple statements.

For all the world class attractions at WDW, there are also plenty of forgettable ones which only now see wait times because people who don't know any better have booked FP+ for them, just to fill out their three for the day. For all the great stuff there, there are also underdeveloped lands, and lots of walking to get to the quality attractions. There are parks with too much space for too few attractions (Epcot, Animal Kingdom) or too few rides and too many shows (DHS). Anything not named the Magic Kingdom has vast room for improvement.

Disney recently spent $1.1 billion on a revamp for one park, DCA, and it was one of the best investments they ever made. So that $1.5 billion for MDE/MB/FP+? Oh yes, they easily could pour that much or more into WDW infrastructure (as opposed to IT infrastructure) and it would be much needed and "about damn time" -- it would not be a case of spoiling us rotten. It would mean that WDW would get closer to its true potential as a world class theme park resort.

But, to all appearances, Disney still wants it to be a giant mall with rides.

Indeed, anyone who read/watched any of the shareholder meetings, or the interviews done by Iger/ Staggs... would have seen the same thing. They were all about locking people in and squeezing money out, predicting resources necessary to shave costs, etc. Very little, if anything, was mentioned about the guest experience. If people also like the MBs because it makes it easier to pay, awesome, but rest assured, if people were likely to spend LESS with MBs, they wouldn't have been introduced, even if they are more convenient than a wallet/card.

There really are some aspects of FP+ I like though, I am sticking with that, but on the whole, not a great system, worse in many respects than the previous system, and if they intend to keep rolling out FP+ only queues ... well, that just might be the end of Disney for us.

 

[Shaden]

What if the new reservation system allowed more people to experience the existing rides, attractions and lands in a more satisfactory way?

For anything to be good for Disney, it has to be good for Disney's customers. The aren't selling fuel, groceries or medicine.

That is actually not true at all, for several reasons.

1) Customer loyalty
-MANY people, will keep on going to Disney, even if they continue to degrade the value of their trips, because they are loyal Disney fans. Fans. That's a big thing. Some of the most successful sports teams for instance never win, and yet, continue to rake in billions.

2) Advertising / Unknown Users
There is a huge segment (wish we had numbers) of Disney guests that are once in a lifetime folks. Disney doesn't have to worry about them having the best time possible, only a good enough time that they don't bad mouth the experience, or at least that whatever bad they have to say, can be countered by Disney's huge marketing machine.

Disney isn't going to run out of these kinds of visitors, probably ever.

They also don't have a basis of comparison, so they don't know if a decision is bad for them, if they don't know anything has changed.


Disney can make a ton of decisions that are bad for its guests and still good for its bottom line. They can cut down the experience to the worst possible that still maintains enough (not all) customer loyalty, and where they can attract new visitors through their massive marketing machine.

 

[JanaDee]

I'm sure they do. And as I stated before, it is no different than those grocery store cards that only give you sale prices if you swipe your card. They are doing it to track you for whatever reason.

There are plenty of places around here to shop at that don't track what you buy with a "loyalty" card. Those are the stores that get my business.

Same goes for where we vacation.

 

[OtherScott]

That is actually not true at all, for several reasons.

1) Customer loyalty
-MANY people, will keep on going to Disney, even if they continue to degrade the value of their trips, because they are loyal Disney fans. Fans. That's a big thing. Some of the most successful sports teams for instance never win, and yet, continue to rake in billions.

2) Advertising / Unknown Users
There is a huge segment (wish we had numbers) of Disney guests that are once in a lifetime folks. Disney doesn't have to worry about them having the best time possible, only a good enough time that they don't bad mouth the experience, or at least that whatever bad they have to say, can be countered by Disney's huge marketing machine.

Disney isn't going to run out of these kinds of visitors, probably ever.

They also don't have a basis of comparison, so they don't know if a decision is bad for them, if they don't know anything has changed.

Disney can make a ton of decisions that are bad for its guests and still good for its bottom line. They can cut down the experience to the worst possible that still maintains enough (not all) customer loyalty, and where they can attract new visitors through their massive marketing machine.

Disney doesn't have to provide the best possible experience (as if that could be quantified), and never has. They just need to give you something that you value more than the cash you're willing to trade for it.

Disney is not a sports franchise, and it's fans are not analogous. The commitment level for a sports fan in terms of time and treasure are relatively small, and the vast majority of fans interact with the team in ways that don't require a direct financial exchange.

I've been a Bengals fan since expansion, and I've been to exactly 2 games (Playoff and AFC championship) and have never bought a jersey. I've been a Buckeye fan since birth and have only been to one game but our basement is a shrine of memorabilia.

Disney's customers will demonstrate that what's good for Disney is not good for them when they stop coming. There is no other measure.

 

[OtherScott]

Right, I would place FP+ under a) and b), not c). After all, it did cost a frickin' fortune.

I don't understand your second point. If half your customers hate it and half like it, then why spend all that money?

The half you cite are from a group of Disney enthusiasts, and even then I think you overstate their objection to the system. FP usage is way up from an abysmal level.

People might be less satisfied with +, but it only matters if they start acting on that level of dissatisfaction.

In terms of customer satisfaction, the net effect is neutral (and I would argue, in the case of FP+, that it's neutral at best) yet you still spent a ton of $$$. Why not invest in something that will likely please 90% of your customers (e.g. well executed attractions)?

What well executed attraction(s) would please 90%? How do you manage crowd expectations for accessing these new attractions that 90% want to ride? How do you manage existing attractions?

In addition, I would argue that the full impact of pissing off your most loyal customers (i.e., most of the avid users of Legacy Fast Pass) will only be seen down the road.

Legacy FP was used by less than half of all guests. You may see the effects of them becoming dissatisfied down the road, but if the levels of FP+ usage are anywhere near to what's been reported, it won't matter.

BTW, loyal guests were loyal for more reasons than FP. Disney will retain most of them.

 

[OtherScott]

I can tell you without a doubt that if WDW becomes full ride reservation, and you have to have a schedule of rides for the entire day, that maybe what causes me to stay away from wdw. I have no desire to have that scheduled of a vacation.

I agree.

But what if they use more virtual stand-by, where you can book a place in line at the park without having to physically stand in a line?

 

[Davey Jones II]

The half you cite are from a group of Disney enthusiasts, and even then I think you overstate their objection to the system. FP usage is way up from an abysmal level.

People might be less satisfied with +, but it only matters if they start acting on that level of dissatisfaction.

Many are. Read the boards. Countless posts which express a variation of one of the following: we're done with Disney/we're taking a break from Disney/we're trying other destinations/we're planning to go less often/this next trip might be our last for a while/Universal/Sea World/DC will be a bigger part of our next trip...etc.
These are people who used to go to WDW a lot -- once a year or more. Now they're changing their tune. That shows a gradual, or not so gradual, erosion in customer loyalty.

What well executed attraction(s) would please 90%? How do you manage crowd expectations for accessing these new attractions that 90% want to ride? How do you manage existing attractions?

I'm not sure I understand your argument. If an attraction is a hit with most of their guests, that's a problem? They would prefer to have a park full of mediocre attractions, so that each has the same short lines full of less than enthusiastic guests?
Would those guests ever come back?

Legacy FP was used by less than half of all guests. You may see the effects of them becoming dissatisfied down the road, but if the levels of FP+ usage are anywhere near to what's been reported, it won't matter.

BTW, loyal guests were loyal for more reasons than FP. Disney will retain most of them.

Maybe, but losing a chunk of your most loyal customers is never good (as per the 80/20 rule). With more and stronger competition than ever, Disney's position as industry leader is not as secure as it once was. When you take your customers for granted, that is when the competition starts making serious inroads. We are seeing the beginning of that.

I'm not saying that the company is in trouble anytime soon. But maybe the reaction to FP+ is the proverbial canary in a coal mine.

 

[mom2rtk]

I agree.

But what if they use more virtual stand-by, where you can book a place in line at the park without having to physically stand in a line?

It's still an appointment you have to keep.

And if nobody is in line, were are all these bodies going to be? You really can only spend so much time shopping. And there's only so much room in those shops. So where would they put all these bodies?

 

[Davey Jones II]

Indeed, anyone who read/watched any of the shareholder meetings, or the interviews done by Iger/ Staggs... would have seen the same thing. They were all about locking people in and squeezing money out, predicting resources necessary to shave costs, etc. Very little, if anything, was mentioned about the guest experience. If people also like the MBs because it makes it easier to pay, awesome, but rest assured, if people were likely to spend LESS with MBs, they wouldn't have been introduced, even if they are more convenient than a wallet/card.

There really are some aspects of FP+ I like though, I am sticking with that, but on the whole, not a great system, worse in many respects than the previous system, and if they intend to keep rolling out FP+ only queues ... well, that just might be the end of Disney for us.

I haven't even seen any of the videos you mentioned above. Their attitude is obvious to me from their decisions. Too little Walt in their decisions, and too much coldly corporate calculation and cynical manipulation.

I'll tell you one thing, if guys like that had been running the company from the very beginning, there would be no WDC today. Walt and Roy left them with a rock solid foundation based on excellence and outstanding guest service, not cost cutting and squeezing every last buck. And the company keeps chipping away at that foundation.

 

[OtherScott]

It's still an appointment you have to keep.

And if nobody is in line, were are all these bodies going to be? You really can only spend so much time shopping. And there's only so much room in those shops. So where would they put all these bodies?

When I enter a line with a posted wait time of 70 minutes, I've made a ride appointment that I have to keep. I also have to do a specified thing for that entire 70 minute.

A virtual queue used to be called FastPass. Now it's an abomination.