California Grill

[DVC-Landbaron]

Ahhh, but Crusader, that's the beauty in it, before this happened the resorts were all priced the same and far below what they are today no matter what Mr. Kidds says.

Like the song:

Have I told you lately, that I love you!!



Caste System Discussion anyone?

 

[crusader]

I don't want this to turn into a caste system issue.

We can go back and forth about the specifics involving the resort distinctions which won't change anyone's mind. So I'm in favor of shelving that discussion for a more appropriate time.

Here's the crux of this debate right now in my view.

So if the Value resort people are spending all night at the Values, then who are these new Fireworks viewers that are congesting CG?

I have no idea. I don't know if that's ever been established. In fact I'd like to know exactly how many people we're even talking about here.

Look, my daughter stayed at the values and hung out at the resort or Pleasure Island. Lot's of people spread out all over Disney to entertain themselves and rest and relax at the resorts after a long day of parks, heat and logistics.

So who is it that honestly caused this problem at the Contemporary?

 

[All Aboard]

You've gotta effin' be kidding me. This has turned into a discussion about value resorts?

 

[searlproudbottom]

I must say
This post is more interesting than last nights debate
Searl

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Man oh man!!!

We keep telling you and telling you and you still don't sem to get it!!

So who is it that honestly caused this problem at the Contemporary?

DISNEY!!!!!


Due to lack of planning!! Remember?

 

[crusader]

You're so easy. HA!!

 

[YoHo]

Originally posted by gcurling
You've gotta effin' be kidding me. This has turned into a discussion about value resorts?

You can't escape Greg.


It makes some sense though. There has to be a reason more guests are causing a problem that never used to exist. What is that reason?

I don't think it is simply that more people are aware of the situation. I think it's from overbuilding of rooms without the equivilent consturction of things for those people to do.

Since you don't want to discuss Values, let's take a different tack. DVC.


What Amenities does Old Key West have? Not many last time I was there. A nice resturant and some pedestrian pools. We can look at any of the latest hotel construction besides the Deluxes and point out how they offer little to both the local resort guests and little to the guests at other resorts.

It's one thing when a handful of people from the Poly head over to the Contemporary to catch the fireworks instead of seeing them from the beach. It's another when scads of people from River country do it. Or what about the Water Pagent?
Do people from other resorts go to see that? Would it be as big a problem if those resorts had something roughly equivelent?

And let's talk about PI and the Boardwalk. I've never been to the boardwalk, so I don't know what it's crowding issues are, but I have been to PI. It used to be and maybe still is a locals hangout too. It certainly isn't big enough to absorb all the guests DIsney could through at it and While DTD certainly offers more space, let's be honest here, it's a mall. A mall that you can see in any big city. No, Pleasure Island and the old Village marketplace is the Draw, and those have a finite capacity as well.
And even if those locations can support the capacity, it isn't equivilent capacity. There is no fireworks show, no Disney day capper if you will. Although it's possible either location would be a good choice for such a thing.

Hell, even DL Hotel has it's little water fountain show as a little nightcap for guests.

So yes, it's bad planning, it's bad show. All those people with rooms and few to no local options to occupy their time.

 

[KNWVIKING]

Part of the problem with your last post YoHo (or rather Captain_Barbarossa ) is that logistically all resorts cannot have all the same "secrets". If MK had no fireworks, I doubt there would ever have been a crowding problem at CG or Poly beach. Fireworks are simply a one-of-a-kind unique draw. So the only answer to the problem then is that every resort be built close enough to MK or Epcot in order to see the fireworks AND to built in a "secret" viewing area.

***"What Amenities does Old Key West have?"***

How about pure peace and quite.Huge rooms. Two pools with a place to get food & drink. All pools with a hot tub. Basket ball and tennis courts. Walkway to DTD. Golf course thru the resort. And several others I'm sure I'm missing. This isn't an attempt to defend OKW, but rather point out that all the resorts offer something special in their own right.

So where do the Values fit into this ? To some travels, the resort itself is a huge part of their vacation. All services at their fingertips. For others, the resort is a place to sleep and shower. The Values perform this task well. Are the Value guests part of the deck problem at CG ? For the sake of arguement ( since no one here knows for sure ) I'll say "yes". What would you build at a Value resort that would keep these guests home so there would be no need to wonder off.

One last thing on the Value guest. Unless they had a rental vehicle, how practical would it be for them to go to CG just to watch the show ? I'd be willing to bet most of the people on the deck are people from WL,Poly and GF - as well as the CR. It's just very easy for those guests to do so.

 

[bretsyboo]

"Part of the problem with your last post YoHo (or rather Captain_Barbarossa ) is that logistically all resorts cannot have all the same "secrets". "

He didn't say this, he said "roughly equivalent" to me that means some sort of entertainment that would make it worthwhile to show up at the values at night (or really at any time)

How about pure peace and quite.Huge rooms. Two pools with a place to get food & drink. All pools with a hot tub. Basket ball and tennis courts. Walkway to DTD. Golf course thru the resort. And several others I'm sure I'm missing. This isn't an attempt to defend OKW, but rather point out that all the resorts offer something special in their own right.

While I would point out that there is nothing to do at old key west at night, the DVC's are a different beast to me. They are homes away from homes with kitchens, and a major idea behind them is to be taking a vacation without it feeling like you have the vacation rush. Old Key West doesn't have near the capacity of other resorts, and it has plenty of activities during the day. To me, OKW isn't the problem. An arguement could be made for the other DVC's considering everything after OKW has had considerably less, but I won't bother making it.

It's the values. Your last sentence points out that the resorts offer something special in their own right. Not the values. They offer the minimum. You're right to say you missed some with OKW, you missed quite a considerable amount of on site activities for its 761 rooms (a number that was expanded a few years back)

But for the all stars and the pop there is nothing but pools and arcades, and not even enough of them for the rooms...all 6,440 at the completion of Pop. Compare the amount of things to do at just one reort like old key west or the contemporary for around 1000 rooms. 6,440 with nothing? It's clear value they are not.

So where do the Values fit into this ? To some travels, the resort itself is a huge part of their vacation. All services at their fingertips. For others, the resort is a place to sleep and shower. The Values perform this task well.

I'd certainly hope they let you sleep and shower well because that's all the offer. However I'd point out that every other resort on Disney property gives you the option of doing nothing but showering and sleeping and they preform that function well. Unless of course you have the occasional guest angry that people might be watching a dinner show while they sleep, in which case they are in severe need of a bit of the pixie dust found in abundance on this board.

The point is of course that the extras don't HURT anyone.

So we'll go into the obvious next step, which is the money.

Before the values the moderates were actually values that...wait, for some reason no one will believe that.

O.K. Directly off of property there were roughly 3 trillion different cheap choices for those just wanting to sleep.and shower. Each and every one of these has a shuttle service, each and every one of these are on the Orlando bus route, and heck, if need be, don't you think Disney could work out a deal to run their buses off property to those hotels? (the answer is yes, they already do it for the off property housing for their seasonal, and college program employees).

The only other arguement I've seen out there is that there are apparently hords of people who care nothing for themeing, activities, room size, magical transportation, general location, or anything else formally associated witrh a disney resort experience. That, they have zero care about. The magic in nothing. Except that while they don't care about anything around them or how good that may be they have a very deep care about who owns the deed to the land that their room is on. They don't care about the magic of the surroundings whatsoever, but the very knowledge that they are staying in Disney concrete warms their hearts more than the grinch got when he was surrounded by hooville concrete. In this case I would recommend Disney invest in straightjackets, because I think with this sort of logic surging through the heads of their guests, they are going to need them.

Are the Value guests part of the deck problem at CG ? For the sake of arguement ( since no one here knows for sure ) I'll say "yes". What would you build at a Value resort that would keep these guests home so there would be no need to wonder off.

Well I can promise you that during the day I will be doing something like comparing bread at the grocery store when something happens to me. I'm carefully looking at this bread wondering if some bread is "wheat" bread, just what is the other bread made of? when I will remember out of nowhere that all star music doesn't have a stage so that music guests might hear....music. "Gosh" I think to myself with a loaf of iron kids bread in my hands, all they'd have to do it run a different Epcot band or two out there every night after epcot closing and the entire theme of the resort would actually start taking shape.

But then I remember...thisd is the company that owns ESPN! And yet there is nothing to do at all star sports? So where is the resorts ESPN sportzone? Where is the building with 6 big screen TV's so the dads can still go somewhere and watch the games at night that don't come on "disney cable" where are the interactive golf games where it is you, a club, a ball, and a virtual reality screen so you can play golf out of the heat and in the darkness? Where are the virtual reality baseball games along the same lines? the indoor basketball hoops? The skating rink with the lasers that seem to entice 9 year old girls so much they adore wasting their birthdays freezing to death going in circles?

Where are the sort of things I would expect from Disney? Exhibits showcasing sports americans aren't familiar with...your polos, your rugbys, your all sorts of sports from around the world I haven't heard of?

Where are any one of these things?

But that's not so bad, Disney merely bought ESPN, it's not like movies, the foundation of the company and the subject which they felt they had enough ideas to build not one, but two parks worldwide themed around the very idea...and yet if you take the pictures of the wall you'd never know you were at all star movies. Where is the all night movie theatre themed like the old days where cast members where silly hats and you pay a dime to go see a picture show...in this case a never ending run of Disney movies new and old in a constant self promotion for disney and nastalgia for fans who haven't seen the apple dumpling gang rides again in 15 years. Why-my god! They could play song of the south! Where is the drive in theatre amongs the hollywood sign backdrop? Where is the humerous stage show that takes through all ages and genres of hollywood movies save the ones that keep yoho from sleeping at night? And again, where is just ONE of these things?

Gosh at the pop century hotel there is a bowling pin stair case, and a bowling pin swimming pool, but no bowling alley done disney? The non smoking non loser redneck one tooth bowling alley with bumpers that say "ouch when you hit them, bowling balls themed like Disney characters (they have these, and if you want to give me something for xmas, hint hint hint) what about when you get a gutter ball but it's ok, because over your head is a funny video of goofy getting a gutter ball, but not that same video you saw last time, my god they could have the budjet to do more than one!

Hey, there is a giant lake out there at pop century, how about running some sort of large boat out there every night with a musical theatrical show that can be seen from most of the buildings that takes you through the history of Disney with musical accompanyment stylized like the time periods. A sort of parade you can see from your room. Wait, that's worked somewhere else on property hasn't it?

Where is the 70's disco? the 50's diner? The 60's...well we can leave the 60's out.

Where is ANY ONE THING?

If you have nothing to do, you have no incentive to be there.

One last thing on the Value guest. Unless they had a rental vehicle, how practical would it be for them to go to CG just to watch the show ? I'd be willing to bet most of the people on the deck are people from WL,Poly and GF - as well as the CR. It's just very easy for those guests to do so.

Heck, for all I care we can assume that people from the values have never once ventured to watch the fireworks from the CG. But if they want to do something at night, they HAVE to leave the Values, they have no other option. So they can go anywhere you choose. Anywhere. For all I care every single one of them can go to DTD. The point is DTD is now more crowded then it would have been. Now it is less inviting to guests who may have gone there otherwise. So they are going to have to go somewhere else, and so on and so forth until every nightime activity on property has a bigger crowd then in normally would have, because again, these people want to do something, and so they are going to go SOMEWHERE.

So now there are lower capacity things like the CG so overcrowded that Disney closed it off. There are slightly easier things to get a hold of that scoop has to bowl over people to get to. There is simply less room for everything, The irony being of course that now they have closed of the deck, and so whatever numbers would have originally been going to that, will now be going somewhere else, increasing those numbers, etc. etc. etc.

 

[mrsR123]

... if they did all these things, how could they charge what they charge for a room on the Boardwalk? Or would they try to charge Boardwalk prices for the ice cube trays masquerading as rooms at the values?

I always assumed that plenty of people who stay at the values drove to Orlando and have cars to go anywhere inthe world with their parking passes-- and their dessert only ressies atCG.

And thanks for an amazing post.

 

[YoHo]

And as I've said elswhere, all those cars are a problem too, a lack of a master plan.




As for you Mr. Viking, you've made your last snide comment about jjewell.com that I care to see.

I'm not sure why I was still reading your posts or interested in your opinion, but you've lost any shred of respect I had for you.


I'm sick of the KNWVIKING report on whose saying what at jjewell.

Oh good, this is vB, Welcome to the ignorelist.

 

[bretsyboo]

mrsr-I tried to make it clear that I was not demanding all of those as a minimum, just spouting things off of the top of my head that they could do.

As for the pricing, no I don't think the price would have to go up a single dime with the inclusion of any of those.

Music-I just want a stage, just a stage, I wasn't even (though it would be nice) calling out for new bands. Heck, off kilter would love to play in a place where they could sell their CD's to a more focused audience where they aren't surrounded by attractions luring guests away.

Movie theatres have snack bars, as do bowling alleys, the sports place could be an interactive sports "bar" type of place. I'm against the selling of alcohol since I picture a more family thing, but a cheeseburger and fries while a dad watches pedro on tv and a son faces pedro in an interactive baseball game seems just fine by me.

Hey, I'd love it if they built these resorts in such a prime position like contemp, ploy, or floridian, that they already have an attraction like the fireworks to watch, but they didn't. And that's not the fault of the guest. I don't think even the standard inflated snack bar is going to provide a profit at a movie theatre for years (in this case it eventually would with one time construction costs, cheap CM's, and running their own movies on loop, and if they sell junior mints, well...the people will come) I don't know that any of this would help Disney's profit margin, and I don't think any of this would be worth it to Disney. Though heck, I'm sure their would be sposorship all over the place.

However there isn't any idea here that is going to make the values anywhere near unprofitable. The money they make off of their hotels is just astounding. I think if this sort of thing were to happen then the values would be a far greater destination, they would have more character, their name wouldn't be so much of a flat out lie...they might approach having some...value.

It's like this, there are giant Disney figurines ready to come to life and smash you littered throught the values. Now, if the values are just a sleep and go type of facility, wouldn't you be downright pissed if your room rate is 20 dollars more expensive then it should be because while you sleep outside of your room says, "GENERIC UGLY PHRASE FROM THE 80'S!"

But those don't add a dime to your room rate, they are supposed to be what makes them "disney" or really in this case, what hides the fact that you are paying real money to sleep your family of 4 into a cubbie while every other guest on property is being treated far better than you. You aren't paying for a giant spot, you are paying for lodging. Spot is their for a bit of magic so that your 3 year old daughter can be terrorized by the thoughts of that 6 ton dog crushing her like an ant on the way to her room. MAGIC.

I'm not kidding myself though. So many things I advocate I think would be beneficial to Disney's bottom line. I don't think any of these ideas would help that much if not at all. So basically, I don't see how any of this would be worth it to Disney. It's simply not worth inproving the guest experience without a substantial improvement in profits.

But just think about all of the things given to the guests over 20 years ago that would never have been worth it today.

 

[KNWVIKING]

Since Yoho has me on his ignore list, could someone ask him what the heck he's talking about ?

 

[airlarry!]

Usually we get dragged down the hotel argument when it really doesn't matter, Greg, but this time it actually is pertinent to the discussion.

I have seen not a single post here yet that challenged the idea that it was Disney's decision to expand seating at the Grille that actually caused the ruckus with the fireworks place. I've never been there; I've never eaten or seen the show from up there; so I was honestly asking for some help on this issue.

Nothing I have read has convinced me other than that Disney did it for more money, and paid the consequence.

Same with the hotels. Even though for three more weeks I'm duty bound to admit how right Mr. Boo is, I would have applauded that post anyway.

Disney saw an avenue of increasing the bottom line, and instead of doing it right, they did it cheap. Just like at the Grille.

Walt is rolling in his grave when he hears people say that WDW could not have had two tiers of pricing in its hotels without sacrificing all of the service. IT IS POSSIBLE. Mr. Boo outlined just one small way of fixing the mess they've created at the Value resorts.

When I hear people say, well all I want is a bed to sleep in and a tub to bathe in, I cringe. Don't tell Disney that. Don't encourage Cou$in Mikey. Tell him you want it all. Tell him you want a room NOT on the monorail route that still has convenient location, magical transportation, amenities (that must be paid for, but are still there for the taking). That's the message that needs to be sent.

I've stayed at the value resorts. And every time, we have fun. It's reasonably priced, and the service is nice. But Boo is right. When the lights go out, the party is over at the All Stars. You're stuck out in the middle of nowhere. You have no choice, but to clog up DTD and elsewhere......and think about it....isn't that what Disney was up to anyway?

 

[crusader]

If you have nothing to do, you have no incentive to be there.

For some, that is a vacation.

The incentive for the values is the price.

The moderates have nothing either.

But that's not why the deck is crowded. It's because all those who enjoyed it in the past when there were very few resorts told two friends and so on and so on and so on.

In other words, they came back older, wiser, some as DVC owners others as whomever staying elsewhere - only this time they were joined by countless other past Contemporary guests, friends and family over a 25 yr. span desperate to capture some nostalgic "old magic" from their past.

Welcome to the real "world"! So I guess the "initial" planners didn't anticipate this when they allowed guests to walk out there in the first place. Same as all other low capacity attractions.

 

[airlarry!]

Now, I admit its been a while, but the last time I stayed at DxL, they had a band two or three nights a week at the restaurant...and magical transportation options (weather permitting) out to DTD.

 

[bretsyboo]

For some, that is a vacation.

Come on now Crusader, don't be stubborn. Like I have repeated many times, this applies for those that WANT to leave their room. And it's my theory, yes just my theory, that most people don't treat Disney like a romantic getaway in a cabin in the backwoods of Northern Maine, no I'd have to guess that when people go to Disney its for more than to sit in a 260 sq. foot room. No I'm thinking most people go to Disney to, you know, do something. But again I'll make the point that someone can sit in any hotel as easily as any other. And if all star movies had, you know...a movie theatre, why they could still sit in their room, and if the fancy grabbed them, they could do something in theme with their resort.

The incentive for the values is the price.

Where is this relevant in the conversation? Of course the incentive for the values is the price, the whole point is, why the heck else would anyone want to stay there?

But that's not why the deck is crowded. It's because all those who enjoyed it in the past when there were very few resorts told two friends and so on and so on and so on.

Ah, so that's why this has been an ongoing problem since the mid 70's huh? (and yes, for those not clear, that was sarcastic)

The moderates have nothing either.

Did you expect this quote to go unchallenged?

First of all, people like Baron have been arguing that YES, the moderates aren't up to the Disney standard previously set before them, and as I said we've been on a downward slope over the last 20 years. But this wasn't a problem with the moderates, why? BECAUSE THEY HAVE FAR MORE!

Again, the values no matter which one you talk about all have the same thing:
Playgorund
Pool
Arcade
FOR A FAR GREATER AMOUNT OF PEOPLE THAN ANYWHERE ELSE

Eh hem, the Carribean:
Arcade
Beach
Bike Rental
Boat Rental
Caribbean Cay
Jogging
Marina
Playground
Pool
Promenade
Swimming
Volleyball

Coronado Springs:
Arcade
Bike Rental
Boat Rental
Children's Activities
Fitness Walk
Health Club
Jacuzzi
Marina
Playground
Pools
Pool (Non-feature)
Spa
Volleyball Court
Water Slide

Port Orleans:
Arcades
Bike Rental
Boat Rental
Cruises
Fishing
Horse Drawn Excursions
Jogging
Marina
Playgrounds
Pools
River Cruise
Swimming

That's just activities, that doesn't include restaurants, or shopping experiences. There isn't a comparison no way no how.

Welcome to the real "world"! So I guess the "initial" planners didn't anticipate this when they allowed guests to walk out there in the first place. Same as all other low capacity attractions.

And here is a quote that should live on with what you think of Disney for the rest of your time on this planet.

Let me ask you something. Dumbo has a low capacity. Did Dumbo ever become so popular they closed it? Dumbo doesn't have any more capacity problems then it did when it first opened. Why not? Expansion. More people with more things to do. That's how you deal with too much capacity. You don't close Dumbo unless you are going to replace it with something better.

But you know what we see now? We see Adventureland was determined not to have enough guests to be profitable enough to stay open the first hour of the day. So if 1000 guests entered Adv. Land in that first hour, now they can't. Now they are in line at other places. Now lines are longer in every other land in the park through artificial inflation. That's how you create capacity problems.

Those initial planners never had one problem with capacity they didn't successfully solve in a way that benefits both the company and the guests. Not one.

The only thing they couldn't have planned for were their successors.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

The only thing they couldn't have planned for were their successors.

WOW!!! Way to turn a phrase!! Do I sense a possible heir for the absent AV??

 

[crusader]

Those initial planners never had one problem with capacity they didn't successfully solve in a way that benefits both the company and the guests. Not one.

So that's why there was a wait list to get a room.

 

[crusader]

that most people don't treat Disney like a romantic getaway in a cabin in the backwoods of Northern Maine, no I'd have to guess that when people go to Disney its for more than to sit in a 260 sq. foot room. No I'm thinking most people go to Disney to, you know, do something

Actually, most of the purest disneyfans romanticize the place. No, not in a backwoods setting - although they certainly have that option at Ft. Wilderness. But in surreal way. They go to disney to drink magic which is the most bizarre concept you'd ever imagine.

There is no tangible magic. They find it just by being onsite. They don't have to "do" anything else. It's that therapeutic in and of itself and yes, whether you care to admit it - it lives equally strong at the values. All the other stuff is crowd management.

Did Dumbo ever become so popular they closed it?

Yes, when they doubled its' capacity which incidentally was a major problem and still is. Same goes for the subs. A friggin' nightmare!

So they didn't remove the icon of Dumbo which I applaud as it has a very unique purpose in Fantasyland - visual stimulation for our youngest generations. You can't compare how the company handles this problem to the observation deck.

The observation deck should have remained for the contemporary guests. The problem was the past guests and their entourage thought they were entitled to it no matter where they chose to stay and crowded in along with all the hotel's present guests. They're responsible for taking something unique and special and tromping on it.