Bush's Lost Opportunity

Originally posted by AmyBeth68

So....there you have it. I still don't think you can call me ignorant. I know the stakes are high...I have a brother-in-law who just returned from serving in Iraq. I also have two small children who should have the joy of growing up in a safe and secure world. This is most certainly not a GAME to me or a decision which I take lightly.

Thanks for another thoughtful response. May I ask what your brother-in-law thinks of the mission in Iraq? To answer your question of who to vote for - you could do no better than to ask him - and vote for whoever he suggests. The men serving in Iraq know what is going on far better than what you will find reported in any media outlet anywhere in the world. It is their lives that are on the line. They won't give you political spin.

Ask him = "Is it worth it?" Let HIM be your guide.

IF you are still undecided - perhaps I will spend a few minutes telling you WHY I am wholeheartedly FOR Bush.

And no - I DON'T agree with everything Bush has done. I would have done a lot of things differently - but I was not in position to make the decision and I certainly don't have access to the data he has.

Here are a few of my basic points about war - see if your brother-in-law agrees, and if he doesn't, then use his advice - he knows far better than I.

1) When your country is at war, you really have no choice but to support the administration waging the war, UNLESS you suspect their motives are not right, or that they are incompetent. And then you have no course but to impeach - or vote the administration out. What you do NOT do is obstruct their command authority and undermine the moral of the troops.

2) Second-guessing every military move is not productive. The "fog of war" is not an idle phrase. When in war, mistakes happen and no plan survives the first contact with the enemy.

3) Asking things like - "is this worth 1000 American lives" is intellectually dishonest. This is only a valid question from an avowed pacifist - one who opposes ANY war - one who would rather surrender than fight for ANY cause.

4) Deaths are inevitable in war - each one is a personal tragedy. To make political points using the parents of dead soldiers does a disservice to the honor of the dead soldier who died doing his duty. War is hell.

5) Wars are best fought by relying on the competency of our military professionals. What the president should do is make sure our cause is just. He should outline what the mission is. He should make sure they have everything they need to accomplish the mission. Then he should allow them to do it - in the best way thier experience has taught them to accomplish the mission. And most importantly of all - he should NEVER use their sacrifices for any political agenda - NOR should he allow his political OPPONENTs to do so either.

6) Wars are fought (or should be) for one reason only - to protect the national security of the USA. When war is declared, then the concept of "sensitivity" should remove itself from the debate. In fact, the sooner and more dramatic and more forceful we can be - the better for the war effort.

Now - for the reasons I support Bush and/or oppose Kerry relative to those points:

1 - 5) motive/incompetency - No thinking person can really question Bush's motives for this war. To do so is to relegate oneself into the bottomless pit of mindless hatred dug by Michael Moore, George Soros and the Hollywood weirdos. The fact that Kerry has not chosen to distance himself from these abominable people are a big reason to question his judgement.

You cannot really question the competency of our military forces or the planning that was done. The quick victory over Saddam's forces attests to that far more than any words.

Nor does the mantra = "don't go to war without a plan for the peace" make any sense. This is another favorite canard tossed out by Kerry - and he knows better. I am surprized the media has not asked him to explain it, but all they do is hammer Bush with the question.

My opinion is that you make your strike in a war when you first have a plan that will utterly defeat the enemy. It would be foolish for a president to reason thusly:

"Generals and Admirals of the Armed forces - the plan you have given me assures that we can strike now and defeat Saddam within 20 days with very few casualties. But there are about a 1000 different hypothetical conditions that we have to consider on what to do next. My staff has analyzed the first two hundred of them - the easy ones. But we have 800 left to go and some of them are really complicated. I don't think we will have a 'plan for the peace' that will cover every contingency for another six months or so. Yes - I know that by then, the situation will have changed and we could have different 1000 contingencies to consider, and yes - I know that by then it may take six months to defeat Saddam, and yes - I know that by then we will be fighting in the 130 degree heat of the desert summer. But we really have no choice - you know - I cannot allow you to strike now because we have not considered every contingency of what to do after we win. What if we win in a hurry, and there is chaos in the streets? I cannot allow my political opponents to paint me as not planning for the peace. Just wait. Have some patience. We will get back to you when all the contingencies are planned for."

Perhaps I have exaggerated the numbers, but I think the above is the scenario you would have to be considering if you really believe that "you don't go to war until you have a plan for the peace."

And yes - our military planned for a war in which the enemy actually fought back. In fact they 'overplanned' that portion, but that is military doctrine - to plan for the worst that can happen.

No military man worth is stars would ever submit a plan that said = "I think the enemy will give up, so I don't think we need to plan for supplying ammo and fuel to the front lines. I don't think that they will use their WMD's so we won't bother with the HazMat suits. I think that the best thing to do is just run our HumVees into Baghdad and make sure we protect the museum from looters. Any Questions? No? Then go to it."

Yes - we did suffer "catastrophic success." Our advancing troops did outrun their supply lines. We did make an "unplanned" pause in our advance because of our overwhelming success. And yes - the Democrats DID accuse Bush of "incompetency" because he didn't "plan" for this catastrophic success.

2) Second-Guessing - this one speaks for itself. Anyone with a brain knows that any military operation can be criticized in hindsight. But I don't recall the GOP criticizing FDR for the mistakes that were made in the Normandy Invasion, when thousands died in one DAY because of faulty intelligence and tactical mistakes - that were only known AFTER the battle had been fought.

Kerry has based his entire campaign on second-guessing decisions made by those who had to make a decision with imperfect data - and especially without the knowledge of how the decision is going to turn out. Kerry has been really good at AGREEING with ever decision that turned out GOOD, and being OPPOSED to every decision that turned out badly. He makes these announcements AFTER the event has concluded. This is abhorrant in itself, but what is really galling to me is that so many think of him as "wise" in his retrospection.

3 - 4) The worth of a life - This is the lowest form of attack. Everyone's life is precious. Our military VOLUNTEERs have decided to join our armed forces knowing that at some point they may have to put their lives at risk. They train hard. They are led well. But they know some of them will die. They also know that some of them will die "needlessly" because of accidents, tactical mistakes, friendly fire, intelligence failures, or just plain bad luck. They accept that risk, and ask only that we honor their service - regardless of what hand of fate struck them down - and not make a mockery of their sacrifice.

I am appalled at the hypocrisy of any politician who uses this attack line. One might as well ask = "is it worth the life of your child to allow Americans to be allowed to drive automobiles." How do you answer that? If you have children, would you sacrifice your only child for the pleasure of driving automobiles?? It is a nonsense question that ought to be laughed at when asked.

Kerry and his surrogates have asked this question incessantly. They should be ashamed.

6) Why wage war? - to win - as quickly and easily and honorably as possible. Nothing else enters the equation. What others think has no merit.

******
Say what you will about Bush - in his pursuit of the war - he has been steadfast. He has the right plan. He allows none of the pettiness of politics to dissuade him. The only way you can change his course is to vote him out of office.

If you agree with his course of action - vote for him.

If you agree that Kerry has a better plan - vote for him - and God help us all.

Nothing else matters in THIS election.
 
Originally posted by AmyBeth68
I guess I should start by stating the painfully obvious "Hello, My Name Is Amy, and I'm an undecided idiot". Bet that made ya' feel all warm and fuzzy inside :rolleyes:.

To follow your lead - I should start by stating the painfully obvious:

"Hello, my name is Morris, and I am an insensitive clod."

But, I hope you recognize by now that my insensitivity is directed at those who offer no rationale for their posts, those who just cut and paste "factoids" and "bumper sticker" slogans, and who refuse to defend or explain their positions, and who denigrate any attempt to draw them into a discussion of ideas.

I know that my shotgun responses sometimes wound a few innocents. I will try to do better.

BTW - in that photo - your two girls look EXACTLY like two of my granddaughtes from behind - same hair styles they had when that age, same relative height, same gestures - eeriely like them.

They are now of voting age, but that photo instantly put me back to that era with them. They are darlings of the first order. They are the reason for my passion.
 
Originally posted by DisMN
Speaking as a previously undecided (but it WOULDN'T have been for Bush in ANY circumstance....) intellectual hermit who's also obviously an idiot and ignorant....I just want to say, don't underestimate the voting POWER of us idiots. :crazy:


Fine! Then make a decision. ANY decision. It can't be that hard. (However, with Kerry changing his message every week, I can understand the confusion)
 
JFK would be ashamed of you - as would all his predecessors

And for those to young to remember, that would be John F. Kennedy, not the one currently co-opting his initials. And the above statement could not be any more true. If THAT Democrat was running today, Bush would be in a world of hurt. Unfortunately for the Democratic party, as John F. Kennedy doesn't exist and would likely be run out of the party if he did.

To borrow a phrase from a soundly defeated Dem. VP candidate:

JFK is no "JFK"
 

Originally posted by LoraJ
Heck, there are terrorists here in the US. Maybe we should take out Washington DC?

What sort of logic allows someone to conclude there are (and have been) Al-Queda cells in the US, but there could NOT possibly be, or ever could have been, any Al-Queda cells in Iraq? :confused: :confused: :confused:
 
Originally posted by chadfromdallas
Its no more stupid than the idea of waging a war on something that CANNOT be beat( and that we are actually part of[us being terrorist as well])

So, we do what? Sit and wait? Continue to treat terrorists like criminals and persure them AFTER they commit their acts? Or, we "negotiate" with them? If so, who? Who represents them?

So,what BRILLIANT alternative to you have to rid the world of terrorism?
 
Originally posted by momof2inPA
Kerry made many substantial points:

1. Starting the war with Iraq when we did was a monumental mistake

Because?

2. We have lost the support and respect of most world leaders

We care...because? In case you haven't read Germany and France have already said they aren't going to play the Iraq game no matter who wins in November. So, at this point I really don't see why it matters if France or Germany support us. Our current allies will be just fine.

3. Kerrry wants to finish in Iraq quickly with a much larger UN force

Would this be the same UN that has spent the last 12 years robbing the Iraqi people in the oil-for-food program? Why would any sane person want the UN involved now?

4. We will make it clear to the Iraqis that we have no permanent design on their country, which Bush has failed to do. Hopefully, this will calm some of the insurgents and future insurgents.

Er..um...hello....we've already done that. They are running their own country. Have their own Prime Minister (unless, of course, you feel like Kerry does and like to insult leaders by calling them puppets). They will have elections in Jan.

6. Then he wants to focus our resources on neglected areas, such as nuclear proliferation and securing nuclear material in the former Sovient Union

At the expense of fighting terrorism? Thank you, no. How does he propose to do this and fight terrorism since in his mind we are completely incapable of even fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq at the same time?

7. Kerry also wants to focus resources on securing our borders, especially our sea ports (this has also been a neglected area)

You mean the areas he's negleted by not voting for funding as a Senator?

8. Bush out-sourced the attempted capture on Bin Laden and fouled it up

There was a timeline? We've now lost the opportunity? Wow! I had not idea. So, what is Kerry's plan? Given that according to him we have to win in Iraq, but at the same time we are spread too thin.

Perhaps some of the undecided, who I personally don't consider idiots, support these points.

Then is sounds like they may be decided, right? If so, fine! Then vote for Kerry. But, for the love of God, do SOMETHING!
 
http://www.scrappleface.com/MT/archives/001860.html

Bin Laden Deputy Thanks Kerry for 'Great Ideas'
(2004-10-01) -- In a tape aired on Al-Jazeera TV, Usama bin Laden's top deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri, thanked Democrat presidential candidate John Forbes Kerry for the "great ideas he shared during last night's debate."

On the tape, still under analysis by the CIA, Mr. al-Zawahiri notes that Mr. Kerry's debate remarks were a "terrific brainstorming session for our associates who seek targets of opportunity to advance the cause of our peaceful religion."

Mr. Zawahiri said he appreciated the "virtual invitation" implied in the following statements by Mr. Kerry:
-- "The president hasn't put one nickel - not one nickel - into the effort to fix some of our tunnels and bridges and most exposed subway systems."
-- "The president - 95 percent of the containers that come into the ports, right here in Florida, are not inspected."
-- "Civilians get onto aircraft and their luggage is X-rayed, but the cargo hold is not X-rayed.
-- "And there's an enormous undone job to protect the loose nuclear materials in the world that are able to get to terrorists."
-- "The president, also unfortunately, gave in to the chemical industry, which didn't want to do some of the things necessary to strengthen our chemical plant exposure."

Mr. Kerry, a professional Vietnam veteran who is also a U.S. Senator, said "it's important for the global community to understand our vulnerabilities so that we don't appear arrogant, thus inviting a terrorist attack."
 
Undecided people aren't ignorant. If you're quickly labeling those as undecided as ignorant without even knowing why they are undecided, what do you think that makes you?

And yet you go on to explain to those who are "ignorant" and "idiots" why you are supporting Bush. Do you really expect people who are undecided to listen to what you have to say when you just insulted them by calling them ignorant and not too bright to vote?

By the way, I'm not undecided myself but I feel that your comments about those who are undecided were incredibly rude. Be happy people are even registered to vote and are participating in selecting a president for our country. There's no point in insulting other voters.
 
Originally posted by Rokkitsci
Reaching a different conclusion is completely ok. I welcome well-thought out and well-presented discussions of other points of view. However, to engage in such a discussion you must be willing to put forth your rationale. I rebutted each of your "points" with my own rationale. You have not supported your points with anything. Utterance of a point of view is worthless unless you are prepared to defend it. It is nothing more than a bumber-sticker - intended for the ignorant.

It is coming to this point in history WITHOUT a conclusion that I deem to be a sign of ignorance.

Whether that ignornace stems for genetics (stupidity) or from apathy (not keeping up with the most important issue in 60 years) is immaterial to me.

Ignorance should be a dis-qualification for decision-making.

Apparently you would rather spend a lovely Sunday afternoon indoors on the computer or your isolating, rude attitude has left you without family and friends.

The majority of your rebuttals are opinions. Those I thought deserved further discussions, I discussed.

I underestand your extreme frustration since the debate, but save the insults. You won't convert anyone to your point of view with insults.
 
Originally posted by momof2inPA
Apparently you would rather spend a lovely Sunday afternoon indoors on the computer


Am I the only one that sees the irony in this post?
 
Originally posted by Rokkitsci
YAWN - again - what I, and others, are saying is not that you FORGOT about it, it is that you don't view it as RELEVANT to the new world we are facing.

You don't know what the hell you're talking about...as usual. FYI, I supported the war in Afghanistan and thought taking down the Taliban was the right thing to do.

Originally posted by Rokkitsci
You are using arguements that would have been the same on Sept 10.

Really? I have 2 questions:

1) what arguments are those

2) how the hell would you know?

Originally posted by Rokkitsci
You are failing to recognize that it is not a police action - designed to arrest only the "guilty - in a court of law."


Again, you don't know what the hell you're talking about, which frankly, doesn't come as any surprise.

Originally posted by Rokkitsci
You don't recognize the need to go on the offensive - anywhere - anytime - against anyone - with or without allies - to fight this war.

Really? Again, how did you come to this conclusion or is this another one of your flights of fancy, sans facts, of course.

Again, I supported the war in Afghanistan.

Originally posted by Rokkitsci
You are a partisan Democrat - IF there were a Democrat in the White House - with EXACTLY the same decision trail as Bush has - and with EXACTLY the same results as are now evident, you would be proclaiming that Democrat president as GREAT and UNBEATABLE.

You're damned right I'm a partisan Democrat and damned proud of it. When it comes to civil rights, worker's rights, environmental rights, women's rights, etc. the Democrats have been on the right side of the issues. The Republicans are still fighting the minimum wage.

As to the rest of your rant, you're dead wrong as usual. If a Democrat had screwed up the war on terror as badly George Bush, I'd be calling for his/her head. The problem with people like you is you can't see reality because you've got your ideological noses buried up Bush's butt.

Originally posted by Rokkitsci
And he probably WOULD be unbeatable. The GOP would certainly not perform the gutter tactic opposition to a national security issue like you Democrats are doing. You would have had the total support of the GOP in going after terrorists anywhere - anytime - anybody. The GOP would be COOPERATING with a Democrat president doing what Bush is doing. They ABSOLUTELY would not be trying to STOP him from doing his job.

What in the hell are you smoking? Republicans would cooperate with a Democratic president? Sure, we have such wonderful examples of that like Kosovo, the missiles in Afghanistan, the bombings of terrorist sites in Africa, etc. Oh yeah, the Republicans are real patriots as long as it's a Republican president.

Originally posted by Rokkitsci
Sadly, you are too partisan to admit it.

Sadly, you're too full of yourself to admit you don't know what the hell you're talking about especially when it comes to people you only know as words on a computer screen and only for a month or so at that.
 
Originally posted by dmadman43
What sort of logic allows someone to conclude there are (and have been) Al-Queda cells in the US, but there could NOT possibly be, or ever could have been, any Al-Queda cells in Iraq? :confused: :confused: :confused:

The type of logic where most people understand that we have an open society(is that clear enough?) and Saddam had a closed one. He was a dictator and run the country with a sledge hammer.

Since we became occupiers of Iraq, these insurgents and terrorists have moved across what became porous borders.
******************************


---NO ONE DIED WHEN CLINTON LIED!
 
Originally posted by ThAnswr
You don't know what the hell you're talking about...as usual. FYI, I supported the war in Afghanistan and thought taking down the Taliban was the right thing to do.



Really? I have 2 questions:

1) what arguments are those

2) how the hell would you know?




Again, you don't know what the hell you're talking about, which frankly, doesn't come as any surprise.



Really? Again, how did you come to this conclusion or is this another one of your flights of fancy, sans facts, of course.

Again, I supported the war in Afghanistan.



You're damned right I'm a partisan Democrat and damned proud of it. When it comes to civil rights, worker's rights, environmental rights, women's rights, etc. the Democrats have been on the right side of the issues. The Republicans are still fighting the minimum wage.

As to the rest of your rant, you're dead wrong as usual. If a Democrat had screwed up the war on terror as badly George Bush, I'd be calling for his/her head. The problem with people like you is you can't see reality because you've got your ideological noses buried up Bush's butt.



What in the hell are you smoking? Republicans would cooperate with a Democratic president? Sure, we have such wonderful examples of that like Kosovo, the missiles in Afghanistan, the bombings of terrorist sites in Africa, etc. Oh yeah, the Republicans are real patriots as long as it's a Republican president.



Sadly, you're too full of yourself to admit you don't know what the hell you're talking about especially when it comes to people you only know as words on a computer screen and only for a month or so at that.

Er..um...I don't believe there is any such thing as workers rights or environmental rights. I could be wrong, but my last read of the Constitution doesn't reveal any.

As for minimum wage, you do understand how oppressive a minimum wage is on small businesses, right? What should the minimum wage be? Whatever you say it is, someone will come along and say it's not enough. So, where does it end?
 
Originally posted by Paradise
The type of logic where most people understand that we have an open society(is that clear enough?) and Saddam had a closed one. He was a dictator and run the country with a sledge hammer.

Since we became occupiers of Iraq, these insurgents and terrorists have moved across what became porous borders.
******************************


---NO ONE DIED WHEN CLINTON LIED!

Ah... I see. Saddam was willing to support Palestanians blowing up Isreali's, give and and comfort to Al-Queda leaders when he was in power, that are now part of the insurgents, but he didn't allow Al-Queda cells into Iraq. Gotcha. Makes perfect sense now.
 
Originally posted by dmadman43
Er..um...I don't believe there is any such thing as workers rights or environmental rights. I could be wrong, but my last read of the Constitution doesn't reveal any.

You know what she meant. Good tactic though: No response so we'll whine about semantics.

As for minimum wage, you do understand how oppressive a minimum wage is on small businesses, right? What should the minimum wage be? Whatever you say it is, someone will come along and say it's not enough. So, where does it end?

Seems to me that this debate didn't go well for you last time, so you might not want to start it up again.
 
Originally posted by oracle
You know what she meant. Good tactic though: No response so we'll whine about semantics.

i actually have no idea what she meant. But, nice try at the clairvoyance there! Rights are rights.



Seems to me that this debate didn't go well for you last time, so you might not want to start it up again.

Really? how did it end up? Did we decide that minimum wage was actually GOOD for small businesses? Did we come up with the perfect miniumum wage that would satisfy everyone?
 
Originally posted by dmadman43
i actually have no idea what she meant. But, nice try at the clairvoyance there! Rights are rights.

Since you want to be difficult, I'll break it down, even though we both know the answer already. She was talking about protecting the environment and workers. Now whether you want to call those rights or protections or whatever, the point remains the same, regardless of semantics.
 


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