Bush's "conversation" w/troops staged

[MizBlu]

"peace table." Good one. It was a particularly bad ending with really good PR.

Daddy Bush had enough sense not to go into Baghdad to avoid what's going on now. Sonny Bush should've listened to his real father instead of those voices he claims he hears.

 

[MizBlu]

I have to add this. You think Bin Laden is not a thought on the President's mind?? Don't give me a quote either. I don't think for one moment of the day this guy is not hunted down. We just want to focus on negative things. The media gets more accomplished when it shows issues that anger people. If Bin Laden was found could you imagine the dissapointment so many would have?

Bottom line: What are you going to believe Bush's own words or someone's spin?

 

[Teejay32]

IMO, war is not war. Just war is just. Unjust war is unjust, plain as day. I also do not define just war as those just supported by Dems, or Republicans, but by the American public. Poll numbers show that this war does not meet the smell test for a overwhelming majority of Americans. But hey, believe as you will, I'm perfectly happy to agree to disagree...

Just War, as defined by poll numbers.

MizBlu: Bush1 didn't go into Baghdad because we had international support enough just for the border of Kuwait. The result was a cumulative disaster for the US that was spun really well. That's a common problem with polls too.

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

Just War, as defined by poll numbers.

I'm sorry...I seem to have missed the crowning of King George last November.

That's the problem with so many Republicans, although their numbers seem to be dwindling due to disappointment with President Bush's half baked political choices. You guys love to spout off about democratic principles on one hand and for some reason, wish for a king who should be respected at all times, no matter his arrogant decsions, on the other.

With the entire misdirected Republican hierarchy, DeLay, Frist, Bush, Rove, etc. either under fire, or under indictment, the Neocon movement is burning itself out just as quickly as it came. Just make sure that you turn out the lights before you leave, Teejay...King George says we're supposed to be conserving energy these days...but of course, Republicans don't pay attention to poll numbers...

 

[sodaseller]

Just War, as defined by poll numbers.

Just War is a theological term of art dating back to St. Augustine. The Bush camp actively tried to coopt and profane Catholic teaching on the subject to justify the Iraq venture, as even rightwinger Bill Cork has conceded. It was a dishonest attempt.

Call it what you will, but don't use the term "Just War", and please don't link an electoral mandate with a moral judgment

 

[Teejay32]

Didn't I just see you claiming "100% war of necessity with a clear moral objective" in Afghanistan, hunting for a guy we're all kind of assuming is in Pakistan, and a lack of both in Iraq, where Saddam was and al-Qaida is?

Congrats on baffling people with bull****, as the saying goes.

 

[Teejay32]

Just War is a theological term of art dating back to St. Augustine. The Bush camp actively tried to coopt and profane Catholic teaching on the subject to justify the Iraq venture, as even rightwinger Bill Cork has conceded. It was a dishonest attempt.

Call it what you will, but don't use the term "Just War", and please don't link an electoral mandate with a moral judgment

And never jump in without reading the whole page.

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

Didn't I just see you claiming "100% war of necessity with a clear moral objective" in Afghanistan, hunting for a guy we're all kind of assuming is in Pakistan, and a lack of both in Iraq, where Saddam was and al-Qaida is?

Congrats on baffling people with bull****, as the saying goes.

Okee dokeee...I'm stepping away from my computer now...very slowly....no sudden moves anyone, Teejay seems to have blown a gasket! I have no idea what your saying in the above post, but hey, knock yourself out...

 

[simpilotswife]

MizBlu: Bush1 didn't go into Baghdad because we had international support enough just for the border of Kuwait. The result was a cumulative disaster for the US that was spun really well. That's a common problem with polls too.

Teejay my understanding of the situation is that we did not have international support, however, Bush Sr also commented in his book that the reason we did not go into Iraq was because a war in Iraq would have become a quagmire.

from Snopes...

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/gulfwar.asp

Claim: Former President George Bush wrote that trying to eliminate Saddam Hussein during the Gulf War in 1991 would have "incurred incalculable human and political costs."
Status: True.

Example: [Collected on the Internet, 2003]


In his memoirs, A World Transformed, written more than five years ago, George Bush, Sr. wrote the following to explain why he didn't go after Saddam Hussein at the end of the Gulf War:

"Trying to eliminate Saddam .. would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible ... We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq ...there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land."

If only his son could read.


Origins: The
quote reproduced above is reasonably accurate, although — as indicated by the ellipses — some of the context has been elided.

In 1998, former President George Bush and Brent Scowcroft, National Security Advisor during the Bush administration, collaborated on the book A World Transformed, a political history covering significant world events which occurred during the first three years of Bush's presidency (1989-1991): the collapse of the Soviet empire, the unification of Germany, Tiananmen Square, and the Gulf War.

In Chapter 19, which discusses the aftermath of the 1991 Gulf War (also known as "Desert Storm," the military operation to liberate Kuwait from occupation by invading Iraqi forces), they wrote:


Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under the circumstances, there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different — and perhaps barren — outcome.
Last updated: 27 October 2003

 

[Teejay32]

Okee dokeee...I'm stepping away from my computer now...very slowly....no sudden moves anyone, Teejay seems to have blown a gasket! I have no idea what your saying in the above post, but hey, knock yourself out...

You've never heard that one? If you can't blind them with brilliance, baffle them with bull****. Whatever, see ya.

simpilotswife: I have direct quotes from him somewhere saying that they didn't go on to Baghdad because Colin Powell was against it, plus the aforementioned "we'd have been all alone there", meaning no mandate. This doen't bother me - people usually have more than one reason for their decisions, and I'd expect a sitting President to have several.

 

[simpilotswife]

simpilotswife: I have direct quotes from him somewhere saying that they didn't go on to Baghdad because Colin Powell was against it, plus the aforementioned "we'd have been all alone there", meaning no mandate. This doen't bother me - people usually have more than one reason for their decisions, and I'd expect a sitting President to have several.

So it's okay for a sitting president to do what he wants as long as he has a couple of reasons for it?

Just as an aside I would be willing to bet that Schwarzkopf was a big part of the reason why we did not invade Iraq either. I do feel sorry for Colin Powell because he was lied to, he knew he was being lied to and unhappily had to use his integrity to sell a war which he never wanted to be a part of to begin with.

I imagine that that the deaths of any service people who die in Iraq will haunt him forever.

 

[Teejay32]

I said, if a sitting President makes a decision I'd expect there to be more than one reason for it.

I have a huge amount of respect for Colin Powell, and appreciation for his position in the crosshairs in this. I respect the decision that was made to not play any more diplomatic games with Iraq, which was the essence of his presentation to the UN. (As opposed to possession of WMD alone.) Whatever else the anti-war people want to hang on him, he was certainly within his rights to make that case to the UN, and he didn't have to lie about a thing.

 

[sodaseller]

IWhatever else the anti-war people want to hang on him, he was certainly within his rights to make that case to the UN, and he didn't have to lie about a thing.

So why did he?

 

[Teejay32]

He didn't.

 

[sodaseller]

Truth is not subjective

 

[Teejay32]

Exactly. And since that about sums up every one of your arguments anyway and it's a bad day on the DIS, I'm done here.

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

Truth is not subjective

I give it up to you, sodaseller!! For me, this debate with Teejay's like screaming into the wind...

 

[dcentity2000]

Not to derail the thread or anything, but as the old saying goes, "Mup da do didda po mo gub bidda be dat tum bix nood cof bin dub ho".



Rich::

 

[simpilotswife]

I said, if a sitting President makes a decision I'd expect there to be more than one reason for it.

Well what if there isn't? Or what if one of the reasons that he did something was not disclosed and not something you would have approved of?

I have a huge amount of respect for Colin Powell, and appreciation for his position in the crosshairs in this. I respect the decision that was made to not play any more diplomatic games with Iraq, which was the essence of his presentation to the UN. (As opposed to possession of WMD alone.) Whatever else the anti-war people want to hang on him, he was certainly within his rights to make that case to the UN, and he didn't have to lie about a thing.

I also have a lot of respect for Colin Powell but it did drop a notch or two because he did not stand fast in his resolutions.

He did not agree with going into Iraq and delayed as long as possible doing so. When he finally received enough "justification" for US invasion he put himself out there because ultimately he had to. He is a soldier and subject to the whims of his CIC.

I think that he knew that the justification for invading Iraq was bogus. I can only guess that he had hoped that things wouldn't turn out the way they predicted. Unfortunately he was wrong and he has to live with his part in allowing that to happen.

 

[MizBlu]

Teejay my understanding of the situation is that we did not have international support, however, Bush Sr also commented in his book that the reason we did not go into Iraq was because a war in Iraq would have become a quagmire.

from Snopes...

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/gulfwar.asp

There you go again..........confusing people with the truth.

I do like that one statement "if only his son could read".

Or see straight.