Bush sets record-longest vacation in recent history

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Tigger_Magic said:
I have read them... many times. I still do not see where in the Patriot Act any Constitutional rights are rescinded or even barely restricted. As I read the 4th Amendment, it is your personal property that is protected, not documents about you as a student, library user, bookstore shopper, etc. It sounds like you are trying to create some sort of super-blanket of privacy expectation that was never envisioned in the 4th Amendment.
You have a problem with groups like the ACLU asking questions about the Patriot Act, but you're not really sure what rights are protected or what was envisioned? I don't know what to say...I'm at a loss.

And with that, I'm off to work. Later, guys!
 
wvrevy said:
So, what, you think they fought to create a country where the government could spy on the people and invade their homes with no notice and no need to show cause ?

Didn't say that. My only point was to counter the notion that "is this the America they fought to for". What they created back then is radically different than it is today. It took 100 years to free the slaves. 100 years from now it will probably be different than it is now. For better or worse, your great grandfather's America is different than yours and your Great grandchildren's America will surely be different.

However, long before the PA, for example, sneak and peak warrants were issued by judges. I don't think the PA allows law enforcement to do that without any judicial review. I might be mistaken but I think I'm right.
 
Changing course a little here, back to the whole vacation thing. I'm an Assistant District Administrator for Little Leage Baseball and out Southwest Regional Headquarters are actually in Waco. The Southwest Regional Tournament which is the last step before going to the World Series in Williamsport Pa. Is going on right now in Waco. I got an e-mail from Little League Baseball announcing that Bush would be attending the game Saturday night that is to be televised on ESPN. Talking to some friends who are working the tournament in Waco it seems that his "vacation" and the rash of reporters it has brought to Waco has made it pretty hard to get a room there. Additionally all the people are making it hard to get around. After all Waco is a town of about 125,000 people and when a President and his following shows up it can put a crunch on things. Add 8 Little League teams and their supporters as well friends, families and Little League Administrators and things get a little tight. Sort of wish he was not there during this time period.
 
Laugh O. Grams said:
You have a problem with groups like the ACLU asking questions about the Patriot Act, but you're not really sure what rights are protected or what was envisioned? I don't know what to say...I'm at a loss.

And with that, I'm off to work. Later, guys!
Wow, another hit and run from left field! Well, when you return maybe you can point out where I said I "have a problem with groups like the ACLU asking questions about the Patriot Act." I think you have me confused with someone else as I've never said anything closely resembling that.

Just for the record, I am fairly clear about what Constitutional rights we have and what was envisioned. I'm also fairly certain that there is no blanket coverage on rights that extends as far as you see it going.

You're at a loss and so am I because to date no one has been able to enumerate a single Constitutional right that has been abridged by the Patriot Act. There is, as you have shown, a lot of hemming and hawing about alleged grievences and supposed violations, but nothing of substance -- unless you start sweeping in non-citizens into the picture.

It's odd... for all the terrors that the Patriot Act is supposed to have played out upon Americans, we continue to live, work and play pretty much just like we did before the Act was passed and signed into law. Things that make you go Hmmmm...
 

brerrabbit said:
Changing course a little here, back to the whole vacation thing. I'm an Assistant District Administrator for Little Leage Baseball and out Southwest Regional Headquarters are actually in Waco. The Southwest Regional Tournament which is the last step before going to the World Series in Williamsport Pa. Is going on right now in Waco. I got an e-mail from Little League Baseball announcing that Bush would be attending the game Saturday night that is to be televised on ESPN. Talking to some friends who are working the tournament in Waco it seems that his "vacation" and the rash of reporters it has brought to Waco has made it pretty hard to get a room there. Additionally all the people are making it hard to get around. After all Waco is a town of about 125,000 people and when a President and his following shows up it can put a crunch on things. Add 8 Little League teams and their supporters as well friends, families and Little League Administrators and things get a little tight. Sort of wish he was not there during this time period.

So what you're saying is Bush being on "vacation" is good for the local economy!!
 
No what I'm saying is Bush being there is making a crowded situation worse. The People around Crawford, including my Democratic cousin, don't care for Mr. Bush to much and could care less what his visits do for their economy.
 
brerrabbit said:
Changing course a little here, back to the whole vacation thing. I'm an Assistant District Administrator for Little Leage Baseball and out Southwest Regional Headquarters are actually in Waco. The Southwest Regional Tournament which is the last step before going to the World Series in Williamsport Pa. Is going on right now in Waco. I got an e-mail from Little League Baseball announcing that Bush would be attending the game Saturday night that is to be televised on ESPN. Talking to some friends who are working the tournament in Waco it seems that his "vacation" and the rash of reporters it has brought to Waco has made it pretty hard to get a room there. Additionally all the people are making it hard to get around. After all Waco is a town of about 125,000 people and when a President and his following shows up it can put a crunch on things. Add 8 Little League teams and their supporters as well friends, families and Little League Administrators and things get a little tight. Sort of wish he was not there during this time period.
My path during a few business trips has crossed that of the President or the VP (not just the current ones). Yes, it is inconvenient. I remember sitting on the tarmac for over an hour one time waiting for Air Force 1 to finally leave. Not much to look at until the President's motorcade arrived and even then I didn't see much. It can be a pain, but I wouldn't deny any President, no matter what their political affiliation, a chance to relax and enjoy something like a Little League game once in a while. They're human, too. (Although I do understand/appreciate the frustration caused when they do show up somewhere. That can be incredibly annoying -- like the time I was trying to get to Disney, but the highway was closed because the VP was returning to the airport. Grr!)
 
brerrabbit said:
The People around Crawford, including my Democratic cousin, don't care for Mr. Bush to much and could care less what his visits do for their economy.

Then I take it that since they don't care what happens to their economy, they are donating the extra money they are making to organizations that will zap the Republicans out of power once and for all...

That's it, they don't care about any help the local economy might get, so they're going to give the money away...right... :rotfl2:
 
BuckNaked said:
Nope, I didn't sleep through it. And nowhere in that speech (or in any speech, for that matter) has the President EVER said that Iraq was behind 9/11. Unless, of course, you have a speech that says otherwise. Since you've claimed that the President and the rest of us are lying and saying that Iraq was behind 9/11, you must have a quote somewhere...right? Or are you ready to admit that you are, once again, incorrect in your claims?


Bush never said it directly, but all his speaches where cleverly written in a way thay were always associated in the mind of people listening to the speeches. And if you repeat something enough times , it sinks in the mind of the listener. And it did work since a vast majority of people thought that Irak was behind the attacks.
 
toto2 said:
Bush never said it directly, but all his speaches where cleverly written in a way thay were always associated in the mind of people listening to the speeches. And if you repeat something enough times , it sinks in the mind of the listener. And it did work since a vast majority of people thought that Irak was behind the attacks.

Finally, someone on the other side that will admit the truth - President Bush NEVER said that Iraq was behind 9/11.
 
Tigger_Magic said:
Wow, another hit and run from left field! Well, when you return maybe you can point out where I said I "have a problem with groups like the ACLU asking questions about the Patriot Act." I think you have me confused with someone else as I've never said anything closely resembling that.
O.K....I'm back, and just in time! I'm sorry if I have lumped you in with those questioning the validity of the ACLU and other groups from the so called left pushing to keep checks on the law. If you agree with me, that a healthy questioning of all laws put forth by our Executive and Legislative branch is not only good, but necessary, then we have no problem.

You're at a loss and so am I because to date no one has been able to enumerate a single Constitutional right that has been abridged by the Patriot Act. There is, as you have shown, a lot of hemming and hawing about alleged grievences and supposed violations, but nothing of substance -- unless you start sweeping in non-citizens into the picture.

This is how I, and many others on my side of the aisle, see the restriction placed on Constituional rights. I'll list a couple amendments and highlight the area in need of questioning:

4th Amendment: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

14th Amendment: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

It may be your opinion that non Americans in US territory don't deserve the same rights as Americans, but the Constitution says different.


It's odd... for all the terrors that the Patriot Act is supposed to have played out upon Americans, we continue to live, work and play pretty much just like we did before the Act was passed and signed into law. Things that make you go Hmmmm...
Ever hear of the old saying "If you give them and inch, they'll take a mile"? That what simply questioning the validity of the Patriot Act, either through court cases brought by the ACLU or the our right to a free Press, prevents.
 
Go Cindy, Go. Cindy Sheehan is having an effect.Mother's Protest at Bush's Doorstep Raises the Stakes
CRAWFORD, Texas — For more than a year, a modest bungalow known as "Peace House," located a few miles from President Bush's ranch, has served as a headquarters for antiwar activists. It is lonely work, with little more than a skeleton crew on hand much of the time.

But then Cindy Sheehan hit town.

The 48-year-old mother of Army Spc. Casey Sheehan, who was killed in an ambush in Baghdad last year, is consumed by the kind of grief that turns into a furious determination to do something — in her case, to confront the president and force him to explain why her son died.

Now, in the space of just a few days, what started out as a seemingly quixotic personal mission has become something of a phenomenon — with media swarming around Sheehan, leading liberal and antiwar activists parachuting in to try to make her their long-sought voice, and political experts in both parties working to assess what role she may have in galvanizing the public's gathering unhappiness with the increasing American casualties in Iraq.

Antiwar leaders hope that putting the spotlight on Sheehan will motivate Americans who oppose the war, creating a political force strong enough to compel the Bush administration to change course.

MoveOn.org and other liberal groups have rushed to provide support, offering media expertise and attempting to assemble a corps of others who have lost relatives in Iraq or have family members serving there.

Liberal voices have swung into action on the Internet as well. On Wednesday, Democratic media consultant Joe Trippi organized a conference call with Sheehan for bloggers, aiming to garner more publicity. By Wednesday afternoon, "Cindy Sheehan" was the top-ranked search term on Technorati.com, the search engine for blog postings....

For the moment however, the personal nature of Sheehan's protest — with its edge of raw emotion — and the concentration of news media staked out in Crawford, where Bush is spending much of August, have combined to raise her voice above the crowd.

"Anything that focuses media and public attention on Iraq war casualties day after day — particularly [something] that is a good visual for television, like a weeping Gold Star mother — is a really bad thing for President Bush and his administration," said independent political analyst Charlie Cook.
Americans get a little numb by the numbers of war casualties, but when faces, names and families are added, it has a much greater effect," he said.

"Cindy Sheehan has tapped into a latent but fervent feeling among some in this country who would prefer that we not engage our troops in Iraq," said Republican strategist Kellyanne Conway, president of the Polling Company, based in Washington.

"She can tap into what has been an astonishingly silent minority since the end of last year's presidential contest. It will capture attention."

But other analysts predicted that Sheehan would soon fade from the scene.

"The president has an Iraq problem, but I don't think it's much worsened by Mrs. Sheehan," said professor Stephen Hess of George Washington University. "One Gold Star mother is a sympathetic figure, but collectively — as Gold Star Families for Peace — she is a movement and, as such, can be countered by a countermovement.

"I think the president might have defused the situation if he had invited her in instantly," Hess said, predicting that GOP strategists would soon mount a counterattack.
It is so nice that Karl Rove is so busy keeping his rear end out of jail that the Bushies blew with Cindy Sheehan. Instead of having a quick meeting with her, the GOP relied on its normal policy of attacking a grieving mother. Attacks like this are dumb.
 
The President already had a meeting with her once - how many does she believe that she is entitled to?
 
Laugh O. Grams said:
O.K....I'm back, and just in time! I'm sorry if I have lumped you in with those questioning the validity of the ACLU and other groups from the so called left pushing to keep checks on the law. If you agree with me, that a healthy questioning of all laws put forth by our Executive and Legislative branch is not only good, but necessary, then we have no problem.
I have no problem with a healthy system of checks and balances, including the ones prescribed by the Constitution. I do have a problem, however, when groups attempt to generate fear and distrust by quasi-terrorist tactics, such as claiming that basic constitutional rights are being taken away or eroded. Such antics are unnecessary and only serve to deepen the political divide.
This is how I, and many others on my side of the aisle, see the restriction placed on Constituional rights. I'll list a couple amendments and highlight the area in need of questioning:

4th Amendment: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

14th Amendment: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Once again, nothing in the Patriot Act the specifically rescinds or abridges in any way either of these Amendments.
Ever hear of the old saying "If you give them and inch, they'll take a mile"? That what simply questioning the validity of the Patriot Act, either through court cases brought by the ACLU or the our right to a free Press, prevents.
No one has been stopped from questioning the PA nor have any court cases not been allowed a fair hearing. The right of a free press has not been infringed upon in any way. Have you ever heard the definition of paranoia? That is the kind of mindset that some are trying to create with the chatter about the PA.
 
Laugh O. Grams said:
It may be your opinion that non Americans in US territory don't deserve the same rights as Americans, but the Constitution says different.
You are correct, it is my opinion, just as it is your opinion that it does. In the final analysis, the only opinion that really matters is the majority one issued by SCOTUS.
 
chobie said:
How dare you roll you eyes at a woman who lost her son? You should be praying to you God that you never know the loss of a child, not vilifying a grieving mother because you disagree with her politics.

I so dare. She's not grieiving; she protesting based on her politics. No free pass.

Anyone who believes or condones the "no blood for oil" nonsense is insulting our nation and all the troops serving in Iraq. Her behavior is shameful.
 
Tigger_Magic said:
You are correct, it is my opinion, just as it is your opinion that it does. In the final analysis, the only opinion that really matters is the majority one issued by SCOTUS.
So using your form of logic, freedom of religion is just an opinion, or the right to bear arms is just an opinion?
 
Tigger_Magic said:
No one has been stopped from questioning the PA nor have any court cases not been allowed a fair hearing. The right of a free press has not been infringed upon in any way. Have you ever heard the definition of paranoia? That is the kind of mindset that some are trying to create with the chatter about the PA.
I am not saying that the right of a free press is being thwarted, only stating that I appreciate it in keeping checks on the government. That's all. No paranoia from me, my friend. Only a healthy suspicion of those who we elect to higher office.
 
Tigger_Magic said:
I have read them... many times. I still do not see where in the Patriot Act any Constitutional rights are rescinded or even barely restricted.

I'm shocked, shocked I tell you!
 
BuckNaked said:
Finally, someone on the other side that will admit the truth - President Bush NEVER said that Iraq was behind 9/11.

And Bush knew better than half the American public believed Saddam Hussein had a hand in 9/11. He said nothing, but let people continue to believe the falsehood because they fell for careful linking of phrases and it suited his political purpose, which was to jack up support for the war. He didn't directly admit Saddam Hussein had no hand in 9/11 until 6 months after the war had started. The failure to correct a falsehood, or withold information, is called committing a lie of ommission. And Bush did just that.

Yada, yada,yada..........I've heard all the excuses "is he responsible for what people believe", "people heard what they wanted to hear", etc. Yes, people heard what the administration wanted them to by carefully words, and yes, Bush is reponsible for what people believe. He never corrected the falsehood, but used it for his own political purpose.

Bush committed a lie of ommission. Bush lied.
 
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