Bought Riviera Despite Restrictions

[RoseGold]

If market conditions don’t matter, why has VGF done so poorly the past two months?

IMO, right this minute, the AP is a major factor. If I had been looking at DVC, I would be instantly out with the way Disney is handling APs. But VGF is completely declared, so its sales seem to be at least OK. And it's not many points, so even if it sits it's nothing compared to holding the bag on millions of Aulani and RIV points.

Long term, I absolutely believe Disney can sell locked down points at kiosks. Hooray! Resale can bite Disney in rear years from now. When people start slamming it as just another timeshare, maybe it will be. The restrictions are a huge change and a big long term risk. DVC only has resale value because people actually want to buy in.

 

[2Lunds]

They’ll only give you 2021 points if a UY is still in 2021. Oct and Dec are still in 2021 so you’d have to request those use years. However if you’re a new member it’ll be hard to get those UY. Prior to joining I kept requesting a UY that would give me early/current points but was denied. Several weeks later after my resale was approved and added, they had no problems letting me add-on to my UY that was previously denied.

We bough in May and got Dec 2021 UY automatically.

 

[Sandisw]

IMO, right this minute, the AP is a major factor. If I had been looking at DVC, I would be instantly out with the way Disney is handling APs. But VGF is completely declared, so its sales seem to be at least OK. And it's not many points, so even if it sits it's nothing compared to holding the bag on millions of Aulani and RIV points.

Long term, I absolutely believe Disney can sell locked down points at kiosks. Hooray! Resale can bite Disney in rear years from now. When people start slamming it as just another timeshare, maybe it will be. The restrictions are a huge change and a big long term risk. DVC only has resale value because people actually want to buy in.

If APs are a factor for VGF, then wouldn’t that apply to sales of RIV as well?

How does declaring make a difference for sales? Matter of fact, I would argue that they did that to reduce their costs on those rooms and put them into the DVC system for owners to book….

They took this cash building and shifted it to DVC, in part, because GF was not booking all the rooms for cash.

RIV, so far, does very well as a cash resort so maybe they are in no rush to declare faster? They are making money on the points not yet declared.

My point is that if we are going to discuss sales at the resorts, the criteria for success or failure should be similar.

If VGF sales are okay right now, then so are RIVs. Of course there are less points they are sitting on at VGF…it only had 2 million to start..RIV started with 6 million.

But, if we use the points that RIV had when VGF started, and if the trend continues that RIV sells more…even though it’s not a huge number…it will be closing ground on that difference.

We know restrictions were a big bold move, and I have said many times, I have a very hard time believing that DVD went into this without expecting sales targets to be different.

The point is, taking it all in, the restrictions themselves have not caused the sales to be so far outside the norm, even when it’s a different product when resold.

It still comes down to the fact that DVD can sell a restricted resort and right now, there are enough other factors in play…pandemic, restricted travel for international travelers, loss of APs, economic conditions, etc….that can be seen as a reason for current state of not only RIV sales but other DVC sales in general.

ETA. I’ll go further to say I think DVD may have discovered a better strategy overall and that is to have an MK and Epcot area resort selling at the same time to guide buyers to purchase something that is unique to their needs.

 

[Cfabar1]

VGF must be doing better, given the massive subsidy they are giving Aulani and Riviera, but not VGF at the moment.

VGF doesn’t have resale restrictions. On the other hand, Riviera is a beautiful looking resort, albeit in a worse location. I think the locations are also a major factor.

 

[Sandisw]

VGF must be doing better, given the massive subsidy they are giving Aulani and Riviera, but not VGF at the moment.

VGF doesn’t have resale restrictions. On the other hand, Riviera is a beautiful looking resort, albeit in a worse location. I think the locations are also a major factor.

Right now, the difference is $1350 off of 150 or $2600 off of 200.

That doesn’t seem like a lot to convince someone to choose RIV, if what they really wanted was VGF.

Now, for the new buyer who doesn’t care about home resort, a savings is a savings, and It’s been enough to sway people to buy RIV instead.

It will be interesting to see how September sales shake out..if the trend continues.. because these current incentives are a bit better than what they did have for August.

 

[sethschroeder]

OKW / PVB / VGF / BWV

Really outside of Poly, Wilderness, Animal Kingdom the rest of the resorts in the Deluxe category are not some crazy theming. Its subtle tips of a hat to where they draw inspiration.

Example is OKW which you say is themed but I say looks like an apartment complex. Nothing against the property as all DVC resorts are nice.

 

[sethschroeder]

The resale restrictions hit Disney badly with this resort, big discounts and slower to sell. They should scrap them all and admit it was a greedy mistake (or just mistake, they won’t admit the greed bit).

Yes it was only outselling CCV over the same timeframe before the COVID shutdown and only overtook VGF after like 2 months to be the top seller again?

No it did not hit badly. Went over this plenty and I can tell all the people who don't deal in sales forecasting and analytics. There is absolutely an adjustment to expectation for a variety of factors over the past 2+ years.

RIV opened in 2019 and it's not even half sold.

Was outselling CCV over same timeframe before shutdown. There was also this thing called a pandemic and now a thing called a recession and a thing called VGF 2.0 adding a ton of studios (which people say most buy for). Yet it keeps plugging along.

holding the bag on millions of Aulani and RIV points.

Yet they are not holding the bag and it keeps selling at a good clip. You essentially lost 1.5 yrs of time selling Riviera to the pandemic and housing prices just had the steepest decline since 2011 I think read so the recession is heating up to slow down DVC sales now as well. In addition to no APs as you pointed out.

 

[havoc315]

VGF must be doing better, given the massive subsidy they are giving Aulani and Riviera, but not VGF at the moment.

VGF doesn’t have resale restrictions. On the other hand, Riviera is a beautiful looking resort, albeit in a worse location. I think the locations are also a major factor.

The location is subjective. While I do believe that more people would prefer to be on a Magic Kingdom monorail, there are plenty of people who prefer easy access to DHS and Epcot.
Truthfully, when I had small kids, I would have preferred Magic Kingdom area. Now that my kids are older, I actually prefer the Riviera location.

 

[sethschroeder]

VGF must be doing better, given the massive subsidy they are giving Aulani and Riviera, but not VGF at the moment.

VGF doesn’t have resale restrictions. On the other hand, Riviera is a beautiful looking resort, albeit in a worse location. I think the locations are also a major factor.

VGF sold well the first time as well. Its likely they are winding down the incentives as they are trying to stretch its sales until next year when they can switch to Disneylands DVC.

Difference in price is about $900 at 150 points its not really until you hit 200+ points it starts to ramp up the discount difference.


Whoops did the math wrong $1900 difference at 150 points so about 6% discount on RIV over VGF.

 

[Brett Wyman]

We love Riviera. Id be happy to be "stuck" there via resale contract

 

[havoc315]

I guess by this logic Aulani wasn't a failure? It got some sales for a while and it could have been worse?

RIV opened in 2019 and it's not even half sold.
.

It's a 6.7 million point resort. CCV is barely over 3 million. The VGF expansion isn't even 2 million.
And RIV sales were peaking right when Covid hit, destroying sales.

Reality is, apart from the pandemic, Riv sales have been right in line with other resorts historically. Disney has sold over 3 million points at Riviera -- So in 3 years, it sold a whole CCV worth of points. If it was the size of CCV, it would now be sold out.

 

[tjkraz]

RIV opened in 2019 and it's not even half sold.

The original Grand Floridian villas took 25 months to effectively "sell out", moving 2.4 million points between May 2013 to May 2015.

Riviera sold 2.4 million points in 28 months: April 2019 to October 2021, less the 3 months when sales were completely halted. And more than half of that time fell during a global pandemic when Disney guest traffic and DVC sales reached historic lows.

The restrictions are a huge change and a big long term risk. DVC only has resale value because people actually want to buy in.

As long as there are people filling the 30,000 hotel rooms at Walt Disney World, there will be demand for DVC points as a means of taking more economical vacations.

 

[Nursemanit]

Really outside of Poly, Wilderness, Animal Kingdom the rest of the resorts in the Deluxe category are not some crazy theming. Its subtle tips of a hat to where they draw inspiration.

Example is OKW which you say is themed but I say looks like an apartment complex. Nothing against the property as all DVC resorts are nice.

VGF is so themed it gets mistaken in photos for Del Coranado - And OKW is a purpose built timeshare not a hotel so it is very different in layout and design.

Neither are generic towers where you could slap a Ramada sign out front and it would not look out of place.

 

[havoc315]

VGF is so themed it gets mistaken in photos for Del Coranado - And OKW is a purpose built timeshare not a hotel so it is very different in layout and design.

So the "FLORIDIAN" gets mistaken for a southern California hotel... that seems like a theming failure, if ever there was one...

Neither are generic towers where you could slap a Ramada sign out front and it would not look out of place.

I sincerely disagree. I find the Riviera to be lovely, and not resemble a Ramada in any way. Yes, it's a tower. So unless you're saying, "every tower looks like a Ramada Inn"...
Heck, BLT looks far more generic than Riviera. (Marriott vs BLT below)

 

[BamaGuy44]

So the "FLORIDIAN" gets mistaken for a southern California hotel... that seems like a theming failure, if ever there was one...



I sincerely disagree. I find the Riviera to be lovely, and not resemble a Ramada in any way. Yes, it's a tower. So unless you're saying, "every tower looks like a Ramada Inn"...
Heck, BLT looks far more generic than Riviera. (Marriott vs BLT below)

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It's all subjective, but I agree 100%. It very much resembles the European hotels it's modeled after, with nice Disney artwork and touches all over the place. Whether that's a good choice for a theme is a separate debate, but it certainly doesn't make me think "Ramada". I personally like the compact footprint vs a sprawling VGF or Poly. I also think BW is heavily themed, just in a different way than WL or AKL. Never seen another hotel like it.

Location is also subjective. As you said it's hard to beat the monorail if you have small kids and do MK focused trips. But we would rather have the nice access to HS and Epcot. We used to love that we could walk to parks from the Crescent Lake resorts. These days I'm not that interested in putting half a mile to a mile on my feet before I even get to the park. I'd rather sit on the Skyliner. YMMV.

 

[DonMacGregor]

So the "FLORIDIAN" gets mistaken for a southern California hotel... that seems like a theming failure, if ever there was one...

Those of us here in So Cal strongly agree with this sentiment. At least call it something different...

 

[sethschroeder]

VGF is so themed it gets mistaken in photos for Del Coranado - And OKW is a purpose built timeshare not a hotel so it is very different in layout and design.

So VGF is a nice old luxury beach resort.

OKW on the other hand I don't view that as a good theme what so ever. Spread out, multiple bus stops to parks, missing elevators, ect. Its by far the opposite of the optimum DVC setup.

Neither are generic towers where you could slap a Ramada sign out front and it would not look out of place.

Here is the Le Negresco a old luxury French Riviera beach resort. Could they have went another route with the French/Italy theme? Sure they could have went more over the top but wanted the Riviera luxury from France/Italy.

 

[DonMacGregor]

OKW on the other hand I don't view that as a good theme what so ever. Spread out, multiple bus stops to parks, missing elevators, ect. Its by far the opposite of the optimum DVC setup.

For me, OKW looks like one of maybe 500 condo complexes here in the "other" Orange County, albeit with the stucco and Spanish tile roofs swapped out for some lap siding, ginger breading and a pastel paint job (although you'll get plenty of that too closer to the beach in places like Dana Point, Laguna, and San Clemente).

 

[BamaGuy44]

For me, OKW looks like one of maybe 500 condo complexes here in the "other" Orange County, albeit with the stucco and Spanish tile roofs swapped out for some lap siding, ginger breading and a pastel paint job (although you'll get plenty of that too closer to the beach in places like Dana Point, Laguna, and San Clemente).

Yeah when they built OKW I think they wanted a traditional time share setup. They weren't thinking about DVC villas as part of the existing Deluxe resorts. Glad ew have the variety that we do.

The days of over the top theming like WL and AKL, and even Poly, where the hotels look like no other anywhere are likely over, and anyone looking for that level is going to be disappointed. The tower style will be the dominant style going forward for sure, and I think that's better for Disney and for the guests. Not that you can't do great theming on a tower, I think Aulani's theming is immaculate. I'm very anxious to see what they do with Poly2. Hopefully they can get plenty of Imagineering touches built into it even if it's not the most ambitious exterior design.

 

[KTownRaider]

So the "FLORIDIAN" gets mistaken for a southern California hotel... that seems like a theming failure, if ever there was one...

This comment brought up an additional thought- There is a 1959 movie called 'Some Like It Hot' with Marylin Monroe, Jack Lemmon, and Tony Curtis. It was #1 in the box office for 3 weeks. Anyway, it prominently features the Hotel Del Coronado, but the film called it the 'Seminole Ritz' and placed it in Miami (vs San Diego). All this is to say that Florida misappropriation for this property has been going on for a very long time.