Born Again Christians Thread-No Bashing please

[brerrabbit]

There are things that certainly cannot be reconciled between science and the bible. And non believers use these arguements to bash Christians. I have a different take on the whole science vs creationism debate. Interestingly enough one of my fellow Sunday School classmates is a very intelligent guy who deals with nuclear issues and quantim physics. He has a much better understanding of science and how it all works that exceeds anything I will ever learn on the subject. In class discussions he has lead he has in theroy reconcilled many of the seemingly unreconcilable issues that many struggle with. A key lies in the fact that when the bible says God created the world in six days, it never says he did it in six 24 hour days. He's God, hence time is within his power. Time means nothing to him. His six days of creation could equate easily to the billions of years scientists claim it took to create planet earth and the universe. Using this logic combined with the scientific facts that show it took millioms of variables lining up in a very particular order to create the universe and earth it is not hard at all for me to believe that those variables were aligned by God to form the universe and the world we know today. Further given he is God the time needed to line up the variables and form it all could have been billions of my years while only being six of his days. I am Methodist and we strongly believe in Bible study and do not take every word of the scriptures as literal. We understand there are many paribles and teachings meant to show Gods love and his teachings through stories and examples. When one puts these all together it is quite practical to reconcile many aspects of the bible with scientific teachings. However in the end I believe in God, and Jesus and have faith that all these mysteries will be answered and do not spend a tremendous amount of time worrying about the what ifs. My Faith carries me through.

 

[saucymb]

Well, to any/all, I would be truly interested in knowing where the 6,000 year figure came from and why some Christians feel this way. I don't question the fact that you do, as some have stated, but my question is Why? I don't ever recall ever having seen anything in the Bible that ever stated it firmly.

I believe the earth and universe is between 6,000 and 10,000 years old. From what I understand, that number came by starting in Genesis and then calculating according to events in the Old Testament. I have not personally done this, but now that I am thinking more about it, it is something I may begin in my new Bible study with DH. But I have been under the fantastic preaching and teaching by long-time Bible scholars, most of whom have spent years studying this very subject, and I trust their findings. They always backed up their research with scripture, logic, and evidence.

ETA: also, keep in mind that God is omnipotent. He created Adam, who was a man, so for the sake of argument let's put him at age 25. Now, from the instant of his creation, he would have been only seconds old, right? And a year later, he would have been celebrating his first birthday. But, we know that he a man, not an infant, and to any person who saw him he would seem to be in his mid-twenties. Does that make sense? So if God made man instantly into a man and not an infant, wouldn't he possibly do that with other aspects of creation, to make them able to sustain life? So that what some evolutionist see today and claim to be billions of years old is actually only thousands of years old? That's my theory.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

Sorry Jasmine... but, ummm, I didn't 'blame' science for anything!!!

I think you miss my point...

Your point was that God has greater capabilities than science. I agree. But science does enhance our life.

I guess that shuttle statement just jumped out at me because I know some people who work very hard trying their best to keep our astronauts safe and with the launch tomorrow, I guess I am a bit on edge about it. I apologize for lashing out.

 

[caitycaity]

And non believers use these arguements to bash Christians.

i'll make you a deal. i'll try not to generalize christians if you try not to generalize "non-believers".

 

[Wishing on a star]

Hey, caitycaity,

Yes, of course I take advantage of what modern science/society has to offer!!! But, that does not mean that I have faith in science.

Faith is unsubstantiated belief... So, if I had any faith in science, I would believe what they have to say.... I would believe that they had the answers... That, very simply, is not the case.

Even in light of all kind of contradictory evidence, science puts forth specific hard facts, such as the age of the world, and I am supposed to automatically believe this, thru faith.... No, I would not have any faith in that at all.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Thank You Jasmine!

YES, let's all say a prayer for everyone for the Shuttle launch!!!!

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Well, to any/all, I would be truly interested in knowing where the 6,000 year figure came from and why some Christians feel this way. I don't question the fact that you do, as some have stated, but my question is Why? I don't ever recall ever having seen anything in the Bible that ever stated it firmly.

No idea the number but DD and I are starting our homeschool and we just read about Creation and are onto Adam and Eve.

The thing about the Bible--is it was not written as they went along history...but at somepoint when it was written--it was the stories passed down. I don't think God said "here, have this Bible--it details all I have done". So whatever the number is---it is based on the tracing back in time to Adam and Eve and creation....(so Adam and Eve - 5 days and you get to the start of it all).

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Question for you guys....but first a little background and then I'll get to the point:

We homeschool and were looking at history stuff for next year...primarily Story of the World. There are some who don't like it b/c it doesn't include Biblical History. I guess I never thought the need to blend it all in one book but that they can be taught separately but intertwined.

That being said--do you believe the Bible History to be the ONLY history.

I mean---many say...."well that is not what it says in my Bible" (not on this thread) when someone mentions something during Biblical times, but it is not word for word in the Bible.

Many cultures existed way back when and evidence shows that there were cultures beyond the middle east and OT biblical times. Even Kings mentions to learn more about the kings in another book (Sorry, no reference for you--I'd have to look it up).

The question--yes the Bible is true and infallible---do you use it as your only resource (if it isn't in the Bible it didn't happen) or do you supplement it with other resources that demonstrate more of what happened at that time (not everything could possibly be contained within the Bible)?

 

[saucymb]

Hi everyone! I was raised Southern Baptist and I have accepted Jesus, but I have not been officially Baptized. I have been waiting for everyone in my family, my boyfriend, friends, etc. all to be in town so I can do it. It is quite a chore to round up all those folks.

Hi, Miranda Danda! So glad you are joining us. I was saved in my teens but was not baptised until 11 years later. But the night of my baptism, my mom, dad, younger brother, and maternal grandparents were there along with my DH and his parents. What a blessing! It was something my dad had prayed for me to do since I was a baby, and I am so glad that the Lord convicted me to do it when He did, as my dad passed away just two months later. It was a wonderful thing to share with my family! I know you will be blessed when you do it!

 

[Miranda Danda]

Hi, Miranda Danda! So glad you are joining us. I was saved in my teens but was not baptised until 11 years later. But the night of my baptism, my mom, dad, younger brother, and maternal grandparents were there along with my DH and his parents. What a blessing! It was something my dad had prayed for me to do since I was a baby, and I am so glad that the Lord convicted me to do it when He did, as my dad passed away just two months later. It was a wonderful thing to share with my family! I know you will be blessed when you do it!

Thank you! I am so glad you had all those people there and I am sure your dad was soooooo proud and it was a great memory for him to carry with him to heaven.

 

[ford family]

The 6,000 years is probably not the most accurate as since I didn't pay lots of attention in World history class I can't quiet remember how many B.C. years there were but being as how we are in 2005 A.D., I think it is closer than the thought that we (earth) are billions of years old.

Latest scientific evidence points to a pottery producing civilisation in Japan around 11,000 BC (Jamon) but the origins of those people goes back much further, to 40,000 BC.

In the middle east, there is evidence of farming in the Nile valley around 10,000 BC and further south, near what is now the Sudan border, before 8,000 BC.

The earliest settlement in Jericho is dated to 9,000 BC and possible religious artefacts date to 6,000 BC.

In China evidence of trade using money rather than barter points to 8,000 BC whilst in Pakistan nomadic tribes were settling to raise crops in 7,000 BC.

Examples of earlier "man" exist, such as cave paintings around 30,000 BC and carvings that date back to 20,000 BC. Not only did **** Sapiens leave his mark but also **** Erectus as in Terra Amata around 300,000 BC.

Incidentally, where do you all stand on the timeline of the development of man as in the Aegyptopithecus (Dawn Ape) of 33 - 35 million years ago through the earliest **** Habilis 2 million years ago and the various iterations and branching before we came along about 250,000 years ago?

Age of the earth? I go along with 4.6 billion years give or take the odd millenia.

ford family

 

[luvthatduke]

I can't resist:

Genesis 1
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water."
7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so.
8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so.
10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so.
12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years,
15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so.
16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth,
18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.
19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky."
21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth."
23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.
25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

This passage has always intrigued me,
and I have heard some great Bible Studies on it (and yes a lot of debate!).
This seems to describ that before there was any light,
before the Sun existed - the Earth existed!
Even though it is described as "formless and empty,"
"darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."
Therefore, according to the Bible, the Earth had been created before any "day" was in existence.
So, this leaves open the possibility that any length of time could have passed before the "first day" actually appeared.
It also does not conflict with some scientific theories
that water had to exist first in order to support life.
I will say here that I do not prescribe to the theory of evolution
(and yes, folks, it's just that - a theory!).
But, I do believe there is room for Biblical descriptions and science to coexist.

We need science, but we also have to remember that science is flawed,
it is nowhere near perfect.
There are many theories that are based, themselves,
on theoretical 'evidence', which by definition is no evidence at all.
I had an aquaintence a while back who quit his job with a University,
because the way carbon dating is used flew in the face of his integrity.
Had nothing to do with his religion, he was not a Christian that I know of.
He told me that any evidence that is based solely on carbon dating should not be trusted, and he was quite serious.
There are several accepted papers and physical evidence that have been proven frauds, including the famous "Lucy".
If I have the time I will search for links, but here is a good place to start:
www.creationevidence.org

Consider the bumblebee - it "cannot" fly!
Not based on known science, not based on known aeronautics,
not based on any physical laws known to man.
And yet it bobs and weaves and flies and does it well,
if a little ungainly at times.

ford family:
All of your evidence is based on known science, please see above .

rick:
Please don't go! In answer to your question, please see above .

jenny:
You, too! Please don't go! Your information is very good,
and really encourages discussion .

Thanks to everyone who have/will answer the church service times question.
I have found it interesting... And Elisabeth, I am awed by yours!

Blessings to all

ETA: Still thinking of the person/people most influential to me.
What a great question!

 

[Grandma Bear]

luvthatduck your answer was great.

 

[Aidensmom]

luvthatduck your answer was great.

I agree. I never looked at it that way before.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

Very interesting luvthatduke!

Again, if we could remember the astronauts and the ready/launch teams for Discovery today in our prayers. Launch is scheduled for 10:39 AM. Thanks.

 

[live4christp1]

Well I guess I just don't know where to look. Sigh...I guess they could be lumped in with "creatures that move along the ground".

Sorry Miss Jasmine, I wasn't trying to be harsh or offend you in any way....it was time to go home and I just typed in a response quickly. Maybe should have said "know what to look for". The leviathan as described in the Bible fits the description we know as a dinosaur.....there are others....I still need to look up the text and will post more later.

Will be praying for the launch today......Christian music artist Steve Green lost his BIL in the shuttle accident on re-entry.....prayers for a safe launch, mission and return.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

Sorry Miss Jasmine, I wasn't trying to be harsh or offend you in any way....it was time to go home and I just typed in a response quickly. Maybe should have said "know what to look for". The leviathan as described in the Bible fits the description we know as a dinosaur.....there are others....I still need to look up the text and will post more later.

Will be praying for the launch today......Christian music artist Steve Green lost his BIL in the shuttle accident on re-entry.....prayers for a safe launch, mission and return.

live4christp1, I apologize to you as well. It was one of those afternoons. Glad that it is a new day with a new start!

 

[ead79]

Miss Jasmine, thank you for reminding us to keep the astronauts in our prayers. In some ways it seems like space travel has become common, and thus we tend to forget how dangerous it really is. My prayers are with these astronauts for a safe journey and return home.

ford family, as I posted earlier, I don’t really have a specific date for what I believe the age of the earth to be. However, I do think it’s much younger than billions of years. As for your dates and evidences of societies from long ago, I would say that the artifacts that have been found have likely been dated using carbon dating. This method can be highly unreliable, hence my problem with accepting the dates often found in evolutionary textbooks. Also, I do not believe that man evolved from apes. I find the assumption that we evolved from apes to be largely without a good scientific basis. For example, I often hear the argument that man must’ve evolved from apes since our DNA is so similar. Never mind the fact that the most minute changes in DNA are what separate one type of organism from another. At any rate, I know we won’t agree on this issue, I just wanted to respond to your statements.

 

[RickinNYC]

Joe came home from work yesterday evening and was a little annoyed. It seems that on his way to the subway, a young man who identified himself as Born Again, asked Joe if he was also Born Again. Like me, Joe enjoys speaking to folks of all faiths, not for the challenge but for the edification. We both figure that if we know what makes them tick, then we will better understand their actions, reactions, and biases if any. And with that understanding, we would become less upset, irritated if they were to act in any way negative towards us as a couple.

In any case, Joe tried to engage the gentleman in conversation, accepting his leaflet, but explaining that he was gay. Without allowing him to go further into his explanation that he was also in a committed loving relationship, they young man become flustered and actually took the flyer back! When Joe questioned his actions and, frankly became a little irritated, the guy explained that the brochure was about gay marriage and the sanctity of the family unit in America. He wouldn't and couldn't speak further to Joe about anything. Joe did explain to the guy that he happened to be standing in the middle of Greenwich Village (heart of the gay community in NYC) and perhaps he should consider stopping by a couple of churches and religious community centers to get different perspectives. The guy wouldn't hear it and left without another word.

Now, if given the opportunity, I have always thought that folks who are trying to witness or prosletyze would do so even more if given the opportunity by someone who is clearly educated.

So what are your thoughts?

 

[ford family]

Thanks for the response, luvthatduck, although I'm not sure why you felt moved to cut and paste genesis. I'm not intending to get into a debate about any of these "interpretations" as it would be a waste of everybodys time.
However, I did look at the creationist website you referenced and I found the content quite underwhelming. One thing really disturbed me, though, and that was this line;
"research done by leading creation scientists..."
My concern is that, to me, a scientist is someone exploring new frontiers, investigating, trying to find answers, a person with no preconceived ideas looking for previously unknown knowledge.
Whereas a creation scientist has already decided what the result of his investigation is going to be and, therefore, only looks at data or material that corroborates what he believes and ignores or rubbishes anything else.
Do you see my concern?

ford family