Board Title (Please Read)

[NYBlue1]

Lifestyle......God, I hate that term! Lifestyle seems to have a choice attached to it. I have no choice in being a lesbian. I am what I am. I have a homosexual ORIENTATION, not a homosexual Lifestyle. Please if you guys are totally bent on changing the name to accomodate the kids in the group with their undies in a politically correct twist, don't use Lifestyle.

PS. Sorry, still need coffee and Daylight Savings Time hasn't been kind to me this year.

I agree the term Lifestyle makes me want to yak

 

[Timon-n-Pumbaa Fan]

So you won't mind then if we change the board name to "GAY MEN AT DISNEY" and we just ignore the fact that lesbians even exist, right? I mean, there isn't going to be any difference in one's Disney experience whether your a in a girl-girl same-sex couple or a guy-guy same-sex couple right?

Actually, as long as the tag line below the title remained welcoming their family and friends, no, I would have no problem posting here. I don't feel that a gay man's issues in touring WDW are that vastly different from a lesbian's.

Umm, aren't you getting your PC panties in a twist over the word "lifestyle"? How does having an "orientation" vs a "lifestyle" affect your Disney experience? And isn't that just a "label" anyway? Why should we care how you label yourself, when you obviously don't give a crap how we label ourselves?

This part of the conversation on the board is more off topic than most. The orientation vs lifestyle terminology is more of an issue IMO for the image that the title would present to the DIS population as a whole. I don't view those words so much as a personal label, but more of a collective community one. As a community, we have similar orientations, and none of us has the exact same lifestyle, because none of us has the exact same life choices placed in front of them. If I didn't care how the world in general viewed our community, I wouldn't be posting in this thread on the issue raised by the OP.

I personally have never felt a strong need that the name of the board be changed, but I completely see where the OP is coming from. After your insulting response, I see it even more. I have been told bisexuality (which I am) doesn't exist by a gay member of these boards. That conversation and your response to this request is an exact mirror of the things I have experienced in the real world from other G and L folk. One of my good friends is studying for a PhD in in sociology and studies biphobia within the LGBTQ community. I've read her interviews with bi folks and each and everyone one of them report dealing with crap like this.

It's sad.

Sorry that your life experience has been difficult with your bi identity, but getting back to the board's topic, how does being bi at Disney really differ? Going back to my questions on the issue....

If you are bi and traveling with a same sex partner, doesn't that make you "lesbian" in the eyes of the masses and make your issues not so different from the same issues that the lesbians on the board are dealing with when they travel? If you are bi and traveling with an opposite sex partner, doesn't that make you straight in the eyes of the masses and present you with NO issues in your Disney experience since there is nothing OBVIOUSLY different about you?

I am not asking the questions to be a jerk, but I seriously have trouble understanding how you wouldn't feel welcome with the board's tag line including family and friends.

 

[Timon-n-Pumbaa Fan]

If you want a new board name, I have a suggestion.

Title: The Rainbow Connection
Tag line: A friendly space for the GLBTQ community to socialize with friends & family and occasionally discuss the Disney experience.

Then, after it's tagged move it over to the Community Board as a sub-forum.

 

[hematite153]

If you are bi and traveling with a same sex partner, doesn't that make you "lesbian" in the eyes of the masses and make your issues not so different from the same issues that the lesbians on the board are dealing with when they travel? If you are bi and traveling with an opposite sex partner, doesn't that make you straight in the eyes of the masses and present you with NO issues in your Disney experience since there is nothing OBVIOUSLY different about you?

I am not asking the questions to be a jerk, but I seriously have trouble understanding how you wouldn't feel welcome with the board's tag line including family and friends.

This is really one of those questions that is very hard to answer without experiencing it for yourself.

I do believe that you don't mean harm and are genuinely asking about something from your perspective.

The catch is that your assumption that our experiences are determined by the partner we are with is the crux of the problem that bi people live with everyday. Yes, we can choose to ignore half of ourselves and then our experiences would be similar to others who already have a space to discuss disney. I am in a monogamous marriage to a woman, but, that doesn't make me a lesbian. Likewise, if I were married to a man, I wouldn't be straight.

So, while an opposite-sex couple with a bi member might APPEAR straight to the masses, they are more likely to be looking for the different social environments and experiences during their vacation. They are more likely to be hurt by discrimination encountered around them.

I learned the hard way when I was younger that I didn't fit in with lesbian groups. So, when I look for a safe space now--even though I look like I'm in a lesbian relationship--I look for spaces that are broader than that.

Keep in mind, I am the same person whether I am with a woman or a man. Therefore, it wouldn't work out for my experiences of wdw to be different based on which partner I traveled with.

I know other bi people who have partners of both genders. Surely, when they travel their experiences would be different. For instance, the king bed rooms may only be booked for a maximum of 2 adults. So, they are discriminated against when making their booking and are forced into 2 smaller beds.

 

[rpmdfw]

Um, why can't the NAME stay the same, but the DESCRIPTION below it have the added verbiage that gays, lesbians, bisexuals, transgenders, their friends and family are welcome here?

That way it's still easy to find, but right there out on the main dis page, it indicates how inclusive we all actually were before this thread.

We're never going to please everyone, no matter what name we choose, but at least we can let people know that everyone with an open mind is welcome to chat with us.

 

[Timon-n-Pumbaa Fan]

I am sorry, but I still don't see how, since this is supposed to be a DISNEY board, how park touring or planning at WDW is going to be that different for you. I am seriously not trying to be a jerk. I understand how your everyday realities are different, but when it comes to a DISNEY vacation, I just don't grasp the concept.

And as to the issue of people being in relationships with more than one person at a time, while I understand the concept, I just don't see how it's DISNEY's problem that they made that lifestyle choice. Yes, I am going on record and saying that Polyamory is a choice. No one that has that sort of relationship should expect to have the fire codes of the hotels broken just because of their lifestyle choice. It's the fire codes that limit Disney's occupancy of the king rooms, it's nothing personal.

 

[Timon-n-Pumbaa Fan]

Um, why can't the NAME stay the same, but the DESCRIPTION below it have the added verbiage that gays, lesbians, bisexuals, transgenders, their friends and family are welcome here?

That way it's still easy to find, but right there out on the main dis page, it indicates how inclusive we all actually were before this thread.

We're never going to please everyone, no matter what name we choose, but at least we can let people know that everyone with an open mind is welcome to chat with us.

Oh, but don't you see, the title is the problem in the OP's eyes. He can't be bothered to read the tag line and see that he's welcome. It's too much to ask for him to read beyond the title. By including that family & friends are welcome here, is just not inclusive enough. He wants that title changed.

I feel like we have an inclusive group here. I still love everyone here. I may not alway like everyone here, but that is the truth with all of my family and friends. I will always love ya', but I am not always going to like ya'!

One more thing, frankly, when this board was created, I did notice that it only was titled for Gays and Lesbians. I figured that the Politically Correct crowd was going to jump on it like white on rice, but they didn't, which I attributed to the tag line being very inclusive of pretty much everyone. I find it sad that anyone feels that the way it is now isn't inclusive enough for everyone.

 

[paigevz]

If you want a new board name, I have a suggestion.

Title: The Rainbow Connection
Tag line: A friendly space for the GLBTQ community to socialize with friends & family and occasionally discuss the Disney experience.

Then, after it's tagged move it over to the Community Board as a sub-forum.

That makes me think of the Muppets. Didn't Kermit sing a rainbow connection song?

 

[hematite153]

I am sorry, but I still don't see how, since this is supposed to be a DISNEY board, how park touring or planning at WDW is going to be that different for you. I am seriously not trying to be a jerk. I understand how your everyday realities are different, but when it comes to a DISNEY vacation, I just don't grasp the concept.

And as to the issue of people being in relationships with more than one person at a time, while I understand the concept, I just don't see how it's DISNEY's problem that they made that lifestyle choice. Yes, I am going on record and saying that Polyamory is a choice. No one that has that sort of relationship should expect to have the fire codes of the hotels broken just because of their lifestyle choice. It's the fire codes that limit Disney's occupancy of the king rooms, it's nothing personal.

Well, I've tried to explain it twice, so, I will bow out of the conversation. If someone else would like to try, feel free.

I will say though that this is NOT a DISNEY site. It is a site for disney enthusiasts and their (our) experiences.

I never said that anything was Disney's problem--simply expressed a very simple way in which people might encounter discrimination that they need to be prepared for and have a place to discuss.

I think the question is really about how welcoming and inclusive we want this environment to be. I have always believed that the majority of regular posters wish this to be a truly safe space for everyone.

 

[hematite153]

That makes me think of the Muppets. Didn't Kermit sing a rainbow connection song?

Yep!

 

[Timon-n-Pumbaa Fan]

Someday we'll find it, the Rainbow Connection, the lovers, the dreamers, and Mama Jean!

 

[invisible_children07]

its not about political correctness. Its about inclusion. It's one thing for us to tread lightly, tiptoe around all the terms, to whisper, and to be scared of getting things wrong. It's okay to make mistakes. If you don't understand something...ask.

However, when it comes to simply including someone one, you can never make any assumptions. There are (sadly) many cismen and ciswomen (biological) only spaces that I would never feel welcome in. They don't say, this is only for lesbians or this is only for men, or this is only for bisexual people but the unfortunate truth is that many people discriminate silently. A good example of this is the Michigan Women's Music Festival. They, currently, are having a problem because once they were welcoming of all women and are now "defining" what a woman should be. Who feels safe in that space?

When I came across this board initally, I almost didn't want to approach it. I cannot assume that all family members are friends which is very very sad. It is a great signal to me, to others who are bisexuals or many others of our friends who are any other letter, to let them know that they are also welcome.

Like you cannot assume someones sexuality or gender identity upon first glance, you can not assume all spaces are safe. That is why I want this name to be changed.

 

[PghLybrt]

. A good example of this is the Michigan Women's Music Festival. They, currently, are having a problem because once they were welcoming of all women and are now "defining" what a woman should be. Who feels safe in that space?

. I cannot assume that all family members are friends which is very very sad.

Like you cannot assume someones sexuality or gender identity upon first glance, you can not assume all spaces are safe. That is why I want this name to be changed.

A couple of things..... I thought MWF was changing their stance? Am I mistaken? I know Melissa Ferrick would not go for years because it was not all inclusive. Olivia Cruise lines also had a similar problem. I have never read about it but can tell you what I know from 1st hand experience. A friend of mine went on the cruise MTF. She was told it would be fine, no problem ect etc. She was a Solo traveler. On Olivia they room you up if you are Solo. She did not get a roommate. My other "friend" as I have said is FTM. He took an Olivia trip before , however he is now told that because he identifies in that way he was no longer welcome. The thing that gets me is that they have the Clicks performing ? I think I will email them now and see what their official policy is. (hopefully these both were just coincidences or misunderstandings….fingers crossed)


And it s is a horrible thing but I have to agree with you , just because we are family does not mean you are automatically safe with them.

 

[invisible_children07]

The last time I heard, they were still holding strong, maybe things have changed. We can only hope so.

 

[smartestnumber5]

I am sorry, but I still don't see how, since this is supposed to be a DISNEY board, how park touring or planning at WDW is going to be that different for you. I am seriously not trying to be a jerk. I understand how your everyday realities are different, but when it comes to a DISNEY vacation, I just don't grasp the concept.

I don't see why the name of the board should be determined by whether or not it's relevant to a Disney vacation. Honestly I don't believe I have ever come to the Gay and Lesbian board to find out anything about Disney. (How does being a teen or a college student make one's visit to Disney different? Those groups also have their own boards too, but what exactly changed from the day before I graduated college to the day after when it comes to visiting Disney? Nothing!) If you take a look at most of the threads right now very few of them have anything to do with Disney. Discussing Disney does not actually appear to be the primary function of this section of the board.

If you are bi and traveling with a same sex partner, doesn't that make you "lesbian" in the eyes of the masses and make your issues not so different from the same issues that the lesbians on the board are dealing with when they travel? If you are bi and traveling with an opposite sex partner, doesn't that make you straight in the eyes of the masses and present you with NO issues in your Disney experience since there is nothing OBVIOUSLY different about you?

Yes and yes--and right there in those two questions is exactly one of the biggest problems bi people face--that they simply cannot be seen because the great majority of people assume there are only two sexual orientations. The problem I will face at Disney as I walk around with my partner as a bi person is the same problem I face *everywhere* as I walk around with my partner as a bi person--that people assume that my sexual orientation is defined by the sex of my partner. That is not a problem for lesbians and it is not a problem for straight women. It is a problem that is unique to bi women.

Granted, it's not a problem that I am particularly concerned with at WDW, because it happens all the time, everywhere! But then again, aren't all the problems of same-sex couples like that? Getting nasty looks when holding hands in public? Having people assume you must be sisters instead of lovers? The hotel people looking like this when you say you are on your honeymoon. None of those things are at all unique to Disney anymore than people wrongly assuming they know my sexual orientation (and hence essentially making a part of me invisible) is.

But as I said above, I don't think the issue of how things are different at Disney for different folks is relevant to the board name.


I do have a question though? If you think there is essentially no relevant difference btw a lesbian's experience at Disney and a transperson's experience at Disney, and you think labels don't matter, then what exactly is your objection to having a different name for the board? You say labels don't matter and no one should get upset that they are bi but the name doesn't include them--so if the board name were "Trans and Bi" you couldn't object on grounds that you are excluded or that the label is misleading. You also don't think that a trans or bi person's experience at Disney would be any different than your experience at Disney--so you can't object to the name "Trans and Bi" on that ground. You keep throwing out the phrase "political correctness"--but if you object to the name "Trans and Bi" aren't you being politically correct?

So it seems you should be perfectly okay with the name "Trans and Bi," but in fact it appears you object to any name change. I'm confused . It seems you've rejected any grounds on which you could possibly object.

Oh, but don't you see, the title is the problem in the OP's eyes. He can't be bothered to read the tag line and see that he's welcome. It's too much to ask for him to read beyond the title. By including that family & friends are welcome here, is just not inclusive enough. He wants that title changed.

Being trans or bi does not make one either family or friend of gays and lesbians. One could certainly imagine an organization which is horribly bi-phobic and trans-phobic that says it is a place for gays and lesbians and their families and friends. That title does nothing to indicate inclusiveness for specifically trans or bi people. (That's not to say it indicates any uninclusiveness either--it just doesn't say anything one way or the other. I do think these board has generally been welcoming and inclusive, though it's not as if I have actually brought up bi issues to know what kinds of responses I would get.) To me your responses to the OP's requests play in the same way they would if this was a board about race. Imagine there was a new section of the board entitled "African-American--a place for African-Americans and their friends and family to talk about Disney." And suppose most conversations on the board are about race more generally, not just about racial issues having to do with being African-American. If a Latino poster said, "Hey I was wondering, why is the name of the board not more inclusive?" I don't think the proper response would be "Oh you're just being politically correct--it's not like a Latino person is going to have a different experience at Disney than an African-American person, and hey labels do matter anyway."

 

[Viki]

... a good discussion as long as the participants are mature enough to realize that you are only offended when you choose to be.

If you find that pesky emotional process rising to the top that's a cue for you to listen more carefully and think your way through what the "other" is saying.

Be offended all you want, but don't use it to manipulate a challenging conversation where we all need to step up to the plate and act out of our best selves.

 

[PghLybrt]

I am sorry, but I still don't see how, since this is supposed to be a DISNEY board, .

Ok...by your thoughts then....what does lawn displays have to do with Disney? (Don’t get me wrong I love them!)

... a good discussion as long as the participants are mature enough to realize that you are only offended when you choose to be.
.

What you said made me think of this
"No One can make you feel inferior without your consent." -Eleanor Roosevelt

 

[Timon-n-Pumbaa Fan]

Ok kiddo, let's try this one, aren't you assuming that everyone out there is going to hate you? You are assuming that all spaces internet or real life are unsafe. You have not yet figured out that safety is largely based on how you carry yourself. Someday, hopefully, you will learn that if you act like you are going to be victimized, you most likely will be, but if you hold your head high and have courage, you are far less likely to be messed with. This is not to say that there are not jerks out there, but to live in constant fear is not an option.....personally, I would rather be dead than to exist like that.

Personally, I could care less about what those "womyn" that go to the freakin music festival think or define. I have no desire to go. I think those events are so far past their prime and most of the music featured tends to suck. If they are so bent on not wanting to accept certain folks, then those folks shouldn't want to spend a dime on their event.

 

[Timon-n-Pumbaa Fan]

I don't see why the name of the board should be determined by whether or not it's relevant to a Disney vacation.

Fine, let's forget this is the DISBOARDS and is a Disney oriented site and this is supposed to be a board for Gays and Lesbians, friends, and family to discuss their Disney Experiences, because in reality, there are very few threads that have one thing to do with Disney. I too am largely guilty of that. This is more of a social forum, but it's current title and tag line say it's function is supposed to be a bit different from what it has become. That is why I suggested that we should change the name and the tag line and make it a sub-forum of the CB.

Honestly I don't believe I have ever come to the Gay and Lesbian board to find out anything about Disney. (How does being a teen or a college student make one's visit to Disney different? Those groups also have their own boards too, but what exactly changed from the day before I graduated college to the day after when it comes to visiting Disney? Nothing!) If you take a look at most of the threads right now very few of them have anything to do with Disney. Discussing Disney does not actually appear to be the primary function of this section of the board.

Agreed, there is precous little on topic content on this board as it is currently titled and tagged. I do see where being a college student or a teen necessitate the need for separate boards, because what appeals to a teenager or college student doesn't always appeal to a 40 year old or a senior citizen. Those boards are fine with me as they keep the kids out of my hair, so to speak. I like kids, but I don't want to hang around with them any more than my life already necessitates.

Yes and yes--and right there in those two questions is exactly one of the biggest problems bi people face--that they simply cannot be seen because the great majority of people assume there are only two sexual orientations. The problem I will face at Disney as I walk around with my partner as a bi person is the same problem I face *everywhere* as I walk around with my partner as a bi person--that people assume that my sexual orientation is defined by the sex of my partner. That is not a problem for lesbians and it is not a problem for straight women. It is a problem that is unique to bi women.

But how does that affect how you tour the parks or how much you like Dumbo? Remember, technically, this is still a board about Disney?!?!? So, I fail to see how your inner thoughts are going to affect your Disney experiences so differently from what a lesbian might experience.

Granted, it's not a problem that I am particularly concerned with at WDW, because it happens all the time, everywhere! But then again, aren't all the problems of same-sex couples like that? Getting nasty looks when holding hands in public? Having people assume you must be sisters instead of lovers? The hotel people looking like this when you say you are on your honeymoon. None of those things are at all unique to Disney anymore than people wrongly assuming they know my sexual orientation (and hence essentially making a part of me invisible) is.

hmmm.....wasn't that the point! Being bi with a same sex partner isn't all that different from the lesbian experience at WDW. Imagine that. As for the part of you that is invisible....the part that is attracted and can be intimately connected to a man, right? Um, how is that going to affect how you tour the parks or how much you enjoy Dumbo?

But as I said above, I don't think the issue of how things are different at Disney for different folks is relevant to the board name.

It is the KEY to the way this forum is named. Again, the DIS is a Disney themed messageboard. This forum is tagged as a place for us to gather and discuss our Disney Experiences. How on Earth can you not see that?

I do have a question though? If you think there is essentially no relevant difference btw a lesbian's experience at Disney and a transperson's experience at Disney, and you think labels don't matter, then what exactly is your objection to having a different name for the board?

I never said that a transperson's experience at WDW wasn't different from that of a lesbian or gay man's. If you are a "queer" transman, like Tyler, then yes, you have a similar experience to that of a gay man while at WDW. However the "straight" identified trans folk have no real issues to discuss, as far as I can see, other than where to potty in safety and peace. As far as I am concerned, I see no difference in a gay man and a "queer" transman as far as their issues with touring Disney and their experience because the OBVIOUS same sex partner issues are the key similarity that you guys would share and that alone would make you included as a "queer" transman because you identify as "queer"/gay.

You say labels don't matter and no one should get upset that they are bi but the name doesn't include them--so if the board name were "Trans and Bi" you couldn't object on grounds that you are excluded or that the label is misleading.

If that was the board title on the DIS, I wouldn't be on it, unless it had a similar friends and family tag like this board does. I doubt that I would post there much. Honestly, I doubt that too many people would....I could be wrong of course.

You also don't think that a trans or bi person's experience at Disney would be any different than your experience at Disney--so you can't object to the name "Trans and Bi" on that ground. You keep throwing out the phrase "political correctness"--but if you object to the name "Trans and Bi" aren't you being politically correct?
So it seems you should be perfectly okay with the name "Trans and Bi," but in fact it appears you object to any name change. I'm confused . It seems you've rejected any grounds on which you could possibly object.

If the trans or bi person was in a same sexed relationship, or identified as having a "same sex intimacy seeking orientation" again, no I don't see that their issues would be vastly different from any other gay or lesbian going to Disney. The reason that I don't think that Trans or Bi necessarily belongs in the title is because the tag line welcomes everyone anyway! Why mess with the title if the tag line says family and friends are welcome? I don't see how this particular stand is politically correct or incorrect, it just makes sense to leave it alone. It's not broken, so there is no need to fix it.

Being trans or bi does not make one either family or friend of gays and lesbians. One could certainly imagine an organization which is horribly bi-phobic and trans-phobic that says it is a place for gays and lesbians and their families and friends. That title does nothing to indicate inclusiveness for specifically trans or bi people. (That's not to say it indicates any uninclusiveness either--it just doesn't say anything one way or the other. I do think these board has generally been welcoming and inclusive, though it's not as if I have actually brought up bi issues to know what kinds of responses I would get.) To me your responses to the OP's requests play in the same way they would if this was a board about race. Imagine there was a new section of the board entitled "African-American--a place for African-Americans and their friends and family to talk about Disney." And suppose most conversations on the board are about race more generally, not just about racial issues having to do with being African-American. If a Latino poster said, "Hey I was wondering, why is the name of the board not more inclusive?" I don't think the proper response would be "Oh you're just being politically correct--it's not like a Latino person is going to have a different experience at Disney than an African-American person, and hey labels do matter anyway."

Ok, in case you don't know there is a Latino based board on the DIS. I have no problem with that. There are issues with culture and language that would definately affect their Disney Experience. There is also a UK board. Those communities have issues that are culturally going to make a difference in their Disney experiences.

The African American at Disney board hasn't been created yet, but I would be ok with that too. I know that our country in particular has issues that still need healing in that department and would support the creation of such a board.

Now, trying to related our stuggles as a GLBTQ community and those of the African American community has never sat well with me. Yes, it's about inclusiveness, but that is a whole different can of worms.

I am ok with changing the board name. I am ok with changing the tagline. I just don't see any real need to keep the current tag line and add trans or bi to the title. It's just pointless because there are not enough issues differences to warrant the change. IMO

 

[Timon-n-Pumbaa Fan]

Ok...by your thoughts then....what does lawn displays have to do with Disney? (Don’t get me wrong I love them!)

What you said made me think of this
"No One can make you feel inferior without your consent." -Eleanor Roosevelt

Hey, I admitted awhile ago in this thread that our forum is largely off topic and I am guilty of enabling that. lol

And, thank you and Ms. Viki too! I appreciate the quote from Ms. Eleanor. It is the perfect sentiment for this thread.