Bizarre, Creepy Incident w/My DD and Potential Pervert (long)

[Lanshark]

If it had been a woman employee would you have felt the same?

Don't beat yourself up. There was no damage done and I'm sure you've learned from the experience.

 

[va32h]

I agree with both your points here Miss Jasmine! We're the same when people bring kids into my office and I wouldn't think twice about grabbing a 'cuddle' with young kids!

But what if the kid didn't want to be cuddled? I know that children are cute and fun and interesting, but I'll admit, I don't understand the intense (albeit innocent) interest some people have in other people's children.

Moving beyond the issue of this particular guy (because I think we've said all there is to say about that - it's just a matter of perception)

Children are very powerless in physical situations. Adults can pick them up, carry them, touch them, and they are just supposed to accept it and allow it. A grown woman, no matter how irresistably cute, would not be expected to allow anyone to tickle her, pinch her cheeks or make her sit in their lap, or be picked up and carried about.

And while there are many situations in which children are treated differently because they are children, this should not be one of them.

When in comes to autonomy and control of their own bodies, children are entitled to just as much respect and consideration as adults. I would never pick up or handle a child - not even my own child - just because I wanted to, no matter how innocent my intentions.

If I want a hug from my kids, I ask if I can have one. I'm sure that sounds extreme to many, but I never want my children to feel obligated to give physical affection to any adult.

Yes, I am uncomfortable with strangers touching my kids. Call that a trust issue if one must, but why should I feel obligated to trust any stranger with my child anyway? Trust is earned over time, not handed out to anyone who looks or acts friendly.

 

[lsyorke]

But what if the kid didn't want to be cuddled? I know that children are cute and fun and interesting, but I'll admit, I don't understand the intense (albeit innocent) interest some people have in other people's children.

It's called living in a world full of people. If you don't want your children touched or having contact with ANYONE that you haven't interviewed first then you better be prepared to keep them in the house with you. Yes, there are weirdos out there, but I find it hard to believe that everyone that children come in contact with is out to hurt them. What does that teach the children? Trust no one, allow no one into your life, there are no good people in the world? A simple kind act by a man in YOUR lawyers office being turned into a pervert is very scary to me. There's a fine line between protecting a child and making something out of nothing. Of course this is my opinion.

 

[U2_rocks]

It's called living in a world full of people. If you don't want your children touched or having contact with ANYONE that you haven't interviewed first then you better be prepared to keep them in the house with you. Yes, there are weirdos out there, but I find it hard to believe that everyone that children come in contact with is out to hurt them. What does that teach the children? Trust no one, allow no one into your life, there are no good people in the world? A simple kind act by a man in YOUR lawyers office being turned into a pervert is very scary to me. There's a fine line between protecting a child and making something out of nothing. Of course this is my opinion.

This is how I feel generally too.

 

[va32h]

It's called living in a world full of people. If you don't want your children touched or having contact with ANYONE that you haven't interviewed first then you better be prepared to keep them in the house with you. Yes, there are weirdos out there, but I find it hard to believe that everyone that children come in contact with is out to hurt them. What does that teach the children? Trust no one, allow no one into your life, there are no good people in the world? A simple kind act by a man in YOUR lawyers office being turned into a pervert is very scary to me. There's a fine line between protecting a child and making something out of nothing. Of course this is my opinion.

Living in a world full of other people does not require allowing those people to handle you however they want. There is a difference between "having contact" with someone, and sitting in their lap or being picked up and held.

My older children attend school, they do go play outside, without my constant presence. My oldest is going to sleep-away camp. I don't cower in fear of every passing stranger or hid my children under shrouds. I just don't want people I don't know picking them up or poking at them!

I think there's a huge line between being friendly with a child you don't know and physically holding or hugging a child you don't know.

What I am trying to teach my children is they do have control over some things in their life, and one of those things is their own little body.

I guess I don't understand why I have to allow total strangers to carry my kids around to prove that I trust them and don't think the world is full of scary people? I agree, not everyone in the world is out to hurt children. But all those touchy-feely folks should understand that not everyone in the world wants to be handled.

Maybe I am the weird one. Maybe everyone else is perfectly happy hugging and touching strangers, and letting their kids do likewise. Fine, I'll be wrong. But no matter how wrong I am, I'm still entitled to not be touched, and my kids are entitled to not be touched.

I do understand your viewpoint, I just don't share it, and it isn't going to change my feelings in regarding to having strangers physically involved with my kids.

 

[lindakmonty]

Living in a world full of other people does not require allowing those people to handle you however they want. There is a difference between "having contact" with someone, and sitting in their lap or being picked up and held.

My older children attend school, they do go play outside, without my constant presence. My oldest is going to sleep-away camp. I don't cower in fear of every passing stranger or hid my children under shrouds. I just don't want people I don't know picking them up or poking at them!

I think there's a huge line between being friendly with a child you don't know and physically holding or hugging a child you don't know.

What I am trying to teach my children is they do have control over some things in their life, and one of those things is their own little body.

I guess I don't understand why I have to allow total strangers to carry my kids around to prove that I trust them and don't think the world is full of scary people? I agree, not everyone in the world is out to hurt children. But all those touchy-feely folks should understand that not everyone in the world wants to be handled.

Maybe I am the weird one. Maybe everyone else is perfectly happy hugging and touching strangers, and letting their kids do likewise. Fine, I'll be wrong. But no matter how wrong I am, I'm still entitled to not be touched, and my kids are entitled to not be touched.

I do understand your viewpoint, I just don't share it, and it isn't going to change my feelings in regarding to having strangers physically involved with my kids.

I'm with you. I'm not sure this guy had ill intentions or not, but you can never be too careful. After all they are YOUR kids! You are the one that has to be able to sleep at night and know you're protecting them the best you can. I was first "touched inappropriately" at age 5. I was at my kindergarden screening of all places. It was from a girl, in the bathroom! The moment I saw my mom I told her what happened and my stepdad exploded to say the least!! When I was 15 a friend of the family tried to do similar things... and then when I was 17 my own karate teacher said he would start giving me private lessons to increase my skills.... he raped me!!! Don't worry about being TOO careful with your daughter!!! I only have a son and I am probably over protective...but I have good reason!

 

[summerrluvv]

I only became alarmed when I saw them at the copier. I have worked in offices for 10-15 years, and honestly, I have never photocopied a child's hands for entertainment purposes.

That's one of DS's favorite things to do when he comes to my office, photocopy his hands and then color them.

I think you are overeacting and I think the man meant no harm. Perhaps the guy didn't know what you were there for, could be a messy divorce, etc. and thought he was being helpful by taking the kid to something fun in the next room while you take care of your business. Kids come into our law office all the time and my boss entertains them with coloring books, gives them candy, and would probably take them over to the copy room to copy their hands if he wasn't so cheap with the office supplies

 

[Skywalker]

I would never pick up or handle a child - not even my own child - just because I wanted to, no matter how innocent my intentions.

This is starting to sound really sad.

The more you type, the more I think you did overreact. You obviously have a strong aversion to people touching your kids (which is fine, of course), so this guy must have really set off your radar.

If you decide to speak to your lawyer about him, just be very careful what you say. You don't want to find yourself at the wrong end of some kind of defamation-type of lawsuit.

 

[va32h]

This is starting to sound really sad.

The more you type, the more I think you did overreact. You obviously have a strong aversion to people touching your kids (which is fine, of course), so this guy must have really set off your radar.

If you decide to speak to your lawyer about him, just be very careful what you say. You don't want to find yourself at the wrong end of some kind of defamation-type of lawsuit.

Respecting other people's privacy is sad? My children and I share plenty of affection. But share. I don't force them to hug me or kiss me if they don't want to. Most of the time, they want to. If they don't, they are entitled to have that feeling, and have it respected.

I honestly do not understand why that is a bizarre or sad thing.

I have talked with plenty of children and families at the store, at WDW, in the course of my work. I have never felt that I needed to hold or touch those children, or that I should be allowed to.

Imagine that you are at the grocery store and the clerk says "oh you are so cute" and starts tickling you. Are you okay with that? Wouldn't you ask them to stop? Why is okay for an adult to have that kind of limit, but a child is expected to accept any kind of physical contact from an adult who happens to like children.

 

[jgmklmhem]

I think what people are finding sad is not that you would keep a stranger from touching your child but that you ask permission yourself to do it. There is something to be said for a spontaneous hug from a parent, spouse, loved one. Do you always ask your SO for permission before touching them? If one of your children has physical touch as their love language (the way we personally feel the most love others are gifts, service, words, and quality time....very good book: 5 love languages of children) then you could be doing them a disservice by making it such a formal thing. Physical touch is obviously not high on your list or so it seems, but it could be one of your childs.

As for the initial situation I think what bothers me is that even though you didn't like what happened initially the paperwork took at least first priority over immediately hunting down your child. You say you didn't want to be rude...but if my child were to leave the room with a stranger, manners would be secondary and I would have immediately followed after them...the paperwork...even a signature could wait. They would not have gotten as far as him holding her up. So I guess in one way I am more protective and would have dropped everything to follow my child immediately....and on the other hand less so within the family.

 

[va32h]

Physical touch is obviously not high on your list or so it seems, but it could be one of your childs.

That is simply not true. My children receive plenty of affection from me...I don't know how to prove that to you, but I know it to be true. They freely give affection to me and the other people that they love. They don't hand out affection freely to strangers. Not because I forbid it or throw a fit about it, but because in our family, physical affection is for those people that you know and love, not anyone who wanders by.

No, I don't say each and every time "may I give you a hug, please", but they know that it is always okay to want privacy or personal space. They are not required to kiss or hug a visiting grandma or aunt. If my son says "I don't need you to tuck me in tonight", I don't insist on doing it anyway. They have choices.

As for the initial situation I think what bothers me is that even though you didn't like what happened initially the paperwork took at least first priority over immediately hunting down your child.

I already explained about this. It happened very quickly. Even as my brain processed what had happened, it was already done. Have you ever had that experience - you see your child about to fall down, you know they are going to fall, but you can't react quickly enough....you see a dish about to slide off the counter but you can't quite catch it. It just happened before I even knew it had happened. I reacted as quickly as I could. Yes, it bothers me too that I didn't step in sooner. Believe me, it bothers me far more than it could possibly bother you.

 

[pansmermaidzlagoon]

OP:

trust your instincts!!! If you felt it was wrong - it probably was.

I will not judge you for what has already happened, but never again let someone out of your sight with your child like that. Speak up and say "no, my child does not leave my sight with a stranger" - I don't care if he is a lawyer in a nice office or the friendly guy in the supermarket line. These people COUNT on you not to speak up - they count on you being "nice" (and their appearing nice/helpful) and not saying anything for fear of sounding rude, etc.

I have recommended it before - but I can't say enough about "Protecting the Gift" by Gavin DeBecker..it addresses these issues..including trusting your instincts and the way these people work.

You came here because your instincts told you something was wrong, you were probably dead on - but another important point is you do not need others to validate that for you!!!! (The book also talks about this and why you shouldn't second gues or try to explain away the feeling.)

I am sorry this happened to you and your child.

 

[beckmrk04]

va32h- I just wanted to add, I don't think anyone is saying you are wrong for feeling the way you do- it was your gut reaction, and you did what you needed to do. If you aren't comfortable with other people touching/holding your children, that is by ALL means your business.

The only thing that really kind of strikes me about this whole incident is that you really, really don't know that this guy had any bad intentions and it could be just awful/embarrassing/hurtful to even suggest he did just because he did something that you, personally,would never do.

Like I said before- it sounds like something my dh, or heck, even I would do. I'm not saying I would force a kid to interact with me- but it doesn't really sound like your daughter was being forced either, nor was she distressed about the situation.

There's careful (which I'm a huge advocate of) and then there's paranoid (and paranoid can even beok- keeps your kids safe- but it goes too far when you think everyone has bad intent).

I can totally understand how you were caught off gaurd when it happened. We're all human. BUT, I still seriously think speaking up about it would just be so damaging when maybe you just don't "get" his intentions because you interact with children in a very different manner.

 

[jgmklmhem]

That is simply not true. My children receive plenty of affection from me...I don't know how to prove that to you, but I know it to be true. They freely give affection to me and the other people that they love. They don't hand out affection freely to strangers. Not because I forbid it or throw a fit about it, but because in our family, physical affection is for those people that you know and love, not anyone who wanders by.

No, I don't say each and every time "may I give you a hug, please", but they know that it is always okay to want privacy or personal space. They are not required to kiss or hug a visiting grandma or aunt. If my son says "I don't need you to tuck me in tonight", I don't insist on doing it anyway. They have choices.



I already explained about this. It happened very quickly. Even as my brain processed what had happened, it was already done. Have you ever had that experience - you see your child about to fall down, you know they are going to fall, but you can't react quickly enough....you see a dish about to slide off the counter but you can't quite catch it. It just happened before I even knew it had happened. I reacted as quickly as I could. Yes, it bothers me too that I didn't step in sooner. Believe me, it bothers me far more than it could possibly bother you.

For the first part I apologize the way you made it sound in a previous post just made me think of it being way too formal.

As for the second point you yourself said you would have gone sooner to find your child but did not want to be rude. The way you describe it in the post I quote now seems different than the way you described it ealier where manners slowed your respone time not just circumstances of everything happening quickly. Can you see where I and others might be getting a mixed message? I am probaly a little over protective so the 5 minute lapse time you said ealier seems like an eternity to me.

 

[grlpwrd]

I would go with your gut instinct. You don't really know his intentions and I'm sorry, but I love the DIS, but not enough to override my gut instincts nor the safety of my child.

Some people are grasping... like what is up with that comment about physical touch? Inferences are made when we weren't even there!

You were there, not us.

Ditto on "Protecting the Gift" by Gavin DeBecker...

 

[ducklite]

Haven't any of you ever been in a situation where something happened, before you even realized it happened? I was looking at the papers I was signing, in my peripheral vision, I saw the guy approach, seconds later, they were gone.

Actually, no. When my son was that age we played a game called "Stick Like Glue" It was a perfect way to occupy him while I was a bit distracted by something in a public place.

He had to stick as much of his body up against mine as he could, and figure out ways to turn around or move say his leg while still keeping in contact with me. Kind of a vertical game of Twister.

He LOVED playing "Stick Like Glue" and it gave me the security of knowing he was right there with me while I could give my attention to something else.

You said "it happened in seconds," IMHO that was plenty of time for you to speak up. If you had been reading those papers in the park while your daughter was on the playground would you have taken that long to process a man grabbing her and walking off behind some trees with her? Why is it any different?

And for the record, I TOTALLY agree with you about allowing kids their own physical space. I don't touch or pick up someone's child without either permission from the child or the parent or both depending on circumstances.
I would never just walk off with a child either--even with my Goddaughter I'd tell my sister "I'm taking her to photocopy her hands, we'll be right around the corner." And a strangers child, no way would I touch them unless I was saving them from imminent danger--ie grabbing them by the collar just before they chased a ball into oncoming traffic--which I think we can all agree is absolutely appropriate even if the child is a stranger. I ask my neices and nephews for hugs, although generally I don't need to, it's more like I'm peeling them off of me--they play the "Stick Like Glue" game without being asked to LOL!

Anne

 

[Serena]

I think you have to trust your instincts.

But as for holding and cuddling. My girls didn't want anyone but me to touch them when they were little. The men around here scared them to death. They would come in and scoop them up and it didn't matter if the girls had seen them or not, it did't matter if they cried or screamed or not. They insisted they had the right to hold them, no matter what.

That didn't go over well with me. In fact, I got sort of insistant myself. I wouldn't them do it. It had to be my children's choice to be held or not, and I didn't accept anything less.

What they finally learned is if the child comes to them to be held, it's much sweeter.

Two bad they had to learn it twice.

 

[Anc96]

"it happened in seconds," IMHO that was plenty of time for you to speak up. If you had been reading those papers in the park while your daughter was on the playground would you have taken that long to process a man grabbing her and walking off behind some trees with her? Why is it any different?

Anne

I think it is bit different. There's probably a sense of security being in your lawyer's office, where you (hopefully) trust the person. I can understand how she noticed it, but didn't want to quite jump up and say "NO!" right away. I think she immediately regretted it though... But it's her laywer's associate right? Unfortunately pedophiles don't have only one profession (not saying he was.. but we do tend to trust people if they're more affluent and/or well educated)

Something happened that makes OP uneasy... I think she just wanted an opinion of whether or not she should say something. I don't think she expected so many people to come to the man's defense. I wouldn't have expected it either. Especially not in this day and age when children really need to be protected.
So many excuses of 'he could have just been..."
Yes.. he could have, but what if he wasn't?? Shouldn't we err on the side of caution in the child's favour? I don't think not one person said 'call the cops!'.. just that it should be mentioned exactly what happened.

Looking at this another way... if this is mentioned in a calm matter with no accusations, just that this man did something that made this particular mother uncomfortable, he would probably never do it again. It may avoid some truly paranoid sue-happy wacko in the future from declaring "PERVERT!" and then ruining the man's life.
Do do tell your lawyer.. if it was innocent, no harm done.

And for the record, I TOTALLY agree with you about allowing kids their own physical space. I don't touch or pick up someone's child without either permission from the child or the parent or both depending on circumstances.
I would never just walk off with a child either--even with my Goddaughter I'd tell my sister "I'm taking her to photocopy her hands, we'll be right around the corner." And a strangers child, no way would I touch them unless I was saving them from imminent danger--ie grabbing them by the collar just before they chased a ball into oncoming traffic--which I think we can all agree is absolutely appropriate even if the child is a stranger. I ask my neices and nephews for hugs, although generally I don't need to, it's more like I'm peeling them off of me--they play the "Stick Like Glue" game without being asked to LOL!

I agree also... I would NEVER touch a child without the parent's or the child's permission . I would never expect someone to touch my child either. And to take a child of someone you don't know out of the room without saying a word is just wrong!

 

[VSL]

I think the OP should trust her instinct and say something in a non-accusing manner about this guy. If he is innocent, then it could save him from a particularly nasty lawsuit or whatever in future, and if he did have other intentions then at least they are aware.

I don't think she expected so many people to come to the man's defense. I wouldn't have expected it either. Especially not in this day and age when children really need to be protected.

I think this is nonsense though. Really, I doubt that there are any more paedophiles today than there were 100+ years ago (we're just more aware of them).

Why, even in ancient Egypt there was paedophilia. Akhenaten married and had children with all three of his daughters.

 

[PaulaSB12]

I think the OP should trust her instinct and say something in a non-accusing manner about this guy. If he is innocent, then it could save him from a particularly nasty lawsuit or whatever in future, and if he did have other intentions then at least they are aware.


I think this is nonsense though. Really, I doubt that there are any more paedophiles today than there were 100+ years ago (we're just more aware of them).

Why, even in ancient Egypt there was paedophilia. Akhenaten married and had children with all three of his daughters.

The rules of Egypt didn't preclude the marriage of a brother and sister, father and daughter. They didn't have laws against what we consider incest. Their deities married close marriage and to maintain the power of the pharohs so did they. For example there was a rule in eypt that if a married man with no children had to leave half of his estate to his wife and half to his family, but if he didn't want to do that he could adopt his wife as his daughter and she would get the spouces half and the offsprings half. You can not call him a peadohile because he does not fit in to the modern world he can't he belongs in the ancient world where children where married as babies and started child bearing when they started menstrating. You have to remember that the chances of living as long as we do where fairly remote, and that makes a huge impact you c ant wait until you are 30 to have children when most often you will not see 30 at all. You can't put 2006 laws and morals on a world that died over 2000 years ago.