Best & Worst Pirates discussion

[Clare Voince]

Having an all male panel explain that altering the bridal auction scene was unnecessary in a year when the abuse of women has finally come into the open was horribly tone deaf. Very disappointed. #Metoo

 

[rteetz]

The change of the auction scene was announced prior to the #Metoo movement was brought to light. I don't believe by any means that the gentlemen on the show were trying to downgrade that by any means but instead they feel that the complaints about the scene were not that warranted. This change was long discussed here on the boards and honestly it showcases some of the history of pirates. I don't feel it shows what should happen today but what did happen in the past. I am under the belief we should learn from our history rather than cover it up.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Having an all male panel explain that altering the bridal auction scene was unnecessary in a year when the abuse of women has finally come into the open was horribly tone deaf. Very disappointed. #Metoo

I get where you are coming from but this is the panel they have for all of the Best and the Worst shows and this was a collection of topics and they shared their opinions

It wasn't like they chose to do a special show to cover this topic and actively only chose males to be on it.

 

[disneyland_is_magic]

Having an all male panel explain that altering the bridal auction scene was unnecessary in a year when the abuse of women has finally come into the open was horribly tone deaf. Very disappointed. #Metoo

As a girl, I thought it came off as dismissive, calling it "nit picking" and people looking for a reason to be outrage. There are people who are genuinely upset by that scene, even if I personally am not. TBH, it never bothered me. But I wanted to ask Pete as a serious question, if the violence of that scene was against the LGBT community, would you say you feel the same about leaving it in? And maybe he genuinely would.
Personally, I was initially completely against the change. BUT I think I was stunned to realize just about EVERY girl has a metoo story. After that, I was like, yeah it needs to change.
Thanks for speaking up Clare.

 

[Clare Voince]

The change of the auction scene was announced prior to the #Metoo movement was brought to light. I don't believe by any means that the gentlemen on the show were trying to downgrade that by any means but instead they feel that the complaints about the scene were not that warranted. This change was long discussed here on the boards and honestly it showcases some of the history of pirates. I don't feel it shows what should happen today but what did happen in the past. I am under the belief we should learn from our history rather than cover it up.

That's what history books are for. Having a scene in a theme park is not the way to thoughtfully record and preserve history.

The culture that accepts the treatment of women as sexual objects is a HUGE part of the problem, and keeping the scene perpetuates a culture that dehumanizes women. While Disney (with incredible foresight) made their decision before the media storm, the current cultural climate should have informed their discussion of it now. If anything, the #MeToo movement proves that Disney's concerns were very warranted. That Pete dismissed it as political correctness was very uncool. This is a human rights issue.

 

[rteetz]

That's what history books are for. Having a scene in a theme park is not the way to thoughtfully record and preserve history.

The culture that accepts the treatment of women as sexual objects is a HUGE part of the problem, and keeping the scene perpetuates a culture that dehumanizes women. While Disney (with incredible foresight) made their decision before the media storm, the current cultural climate should have informed their discussion of it now. If anything, the #MeToo movement proves that Disney's concerns were very warranted. That Pete dismissed it as political correctness was very uncool. This is a human rights issue.

I don't accept poor treatment of women in today's society but that scene does not represent today. Theme parks are historical and represent different parts in history. Look at Frontierland, or Liberty Square or even Main Street for example. I completely understand and respect your viewpoint but it does not match mine.

 

[disneyland_is_magic]

The problem for me started when it became apparent it was not a historical problem. I was initially for keeping it because I was like, "it's history, we shouldn't lie about history, we learn from it." I was also saying, "pirates are bad people, they also rob, plunder and murder, and no one thinks that's okay." Then others would discuss the rampant sex trade in other countries and I was like, "well crap everyone condemns that and it has nothing to do with a DL ride", so that didn't sway me either.

And then the metoo movement happened and I was stunned, it's not historical, it's real, it's present and it's happening to practically every women in OUR country, and I frankly don't think anything has been fixed yet. Then I was like, for that reason, we have to change it. If it was just historical and it was no longer happening, I would still be on board for keeping it. But I have little nieces in my life and I don't want it to still be okay when they get older, I can't lull back into the same norms.

That said, I was on the other side not long ago, so I still feel a lot of respect and understanding where others are coming from. I think the main thing is keep the dialogue going.

 

[Clare Voince]

I don't accept poor treatment of women in today's society but that scene does not represent today. Theme parks are historical and represent different parts in history. Look at Frontierland, or Liberty Square or even Main Street for example. I completely understand and respect your viewpoint but it does not match mine.

It seems like you've made up your mind, but I'm going to try one last time to make you understand.

I have been going to WDW since I was 5. Even though I loved the ride, I would always feel bad when we got to that scene. Ironically, not because the women were being sold, although as a adult I find that objectionable. Even as a young girl, I looked more like the overweight woman in blue than the redhead. I got to watch a scene with men who didn't want her. She wasn't worth anything to them because she wasn't beautiful. And I was like her. I wanted to be the redhead so that I would be wanted as much as she was. That's what's so sick about that scene for me. I wanted to be the one they wanted to abuse, because otherwise I was worthless. This is not a static history lesson. It teaches girls how to feel about themselves. It teaches boys that it's ok to judge women based on their appearance and their sexual use.

Anyway, the segment on Best & Worst should have acknowledged that some people had a legitimate beef, even if they didn't agree with it, instead of being so dismissive.

 

[rteetz]

It seems like you've made up your mind, but I'm going to try one last time to make you understand.

I have been going to WDW since I was 5. Even though I loved the ride, I would always feel bad when we got to that scene. Ironically, not because the women were being sold, although as a adult I find that objectionable. Even as a young girl, I looked more like the overweight woman in blue than the redhead. I got to watch a scene with men who didn't want her. She wasn't worth anything to them because she wasn't beautiful. And I was like her. I wanted to be the redhead so that I would be wanted as much as she was. That's what's so sick about that scene for me. I wanted to be the one they wanted to abuse, because otherwise I was worthless. This is not a static history lesson. It teaches girls how to feel about themselves. It teaches boys that it's ok to judge women based on their appearance and their sexual use.

Anyway, the segment on Best & Worst should have acknowledged that some people had a legitimate beef, even if they didn't agree with it, instead of being so dismissive.

I do understand your point. I just don't fully agree with the change. I agree that women in no way should be treated like we have seen in the news and such.

I honestly have never heard anyone complain about the scene. I am not discrediting your story by any means either. I have gone to Disney since I was 8 months old and never felt the scene taught me as a young boy it was okay to judge women based on those things.

I feel the best and worst also had never heard of such complaints which is why they had the discussion they did. I could be wrong about that though. I think we would have seen discussions online on the boards or elsewhere if the scene was such an issue. We didn't though. Just my take.

 

[disneysteve]

I have been going to WDW since I was 5. Even though I loved the ride, I would always feel bad when we got to that scene. Ironically, not because the women were being sold, although as a adult I find that objectionable. Even as a young girl, I looked more like the overweight woman in blue than the redhead. I got to watch a scene with men who didn't want her. She wasn't worth anything to them because she wasn't beautiful. And I was like her. I wanted to be the redhead so that I would be wanted as much as she was. That's what's so sick about that scene for me. I wanted to be the one they wanted to abuse, because otherwise I was worthless. This is not a static history lesson. It teaches girls how to feel about themselves. It teaches boys that it's ok to judge women based on their appearance and their sexual use.

I am not a fan of them changing the attraction for tradition reasons but I have to say this is the most compelling statement about it that I've seen to date. It does send multiple negative messages, even if done in a pseudo-historical context.

Even though we're talking about a theme park attraction, this is actually a very complex issue. If human trafficking was purely a historical practice, the redhead scene would be less troublesome. The problem is that isn't the case. Human trafficking is still very much active and alive, even in the US, and certainly in many other countries. And obviously sexual abuse is a major problem. And Clare Voince raises a second issue with the scene that I haven't heard mentioned previously but it's a very good one: the fact that the pirates only want the pretty girl. Especially as the father of a young adult daughter, I clearly the problem with the message there.

I've been going to WDW since 1978. To me, at least on the surface, I just don't want to see the ride changed. I didn't want to see them add Jack Sparrow. I didn't want to see them change the scene where the men chased the women. And I don't want to see them change the redhead scene. I wanted the ride to remain as it was designed to be seen. I'd love to know what Marc Davis or Walt himself would have to say about all of this. I suspect they'd say they never intended to offend anyone or make anyone uncomfortable. I understand that this ride was designed at a much different time in society and would never be designed that way if it was being done from scratch today. So I guess that speaks to justifying the change.

Sorry for the long post. I'm just thinking "out loud". Thank you for your post, Clare.

 

[SorcererHeidi]

Ironically, not because the women were being sold, although as a adult I find that objectionable. Even as a young girl, I looked more like the overweight woman in blue than the redhead. I got to watch a scene with men who didn't want her. She wasn't worth anything to them because she wasn't beautiful. And I was like her. I wanted to be the redhead so that I would be wanted as much as she was. That's what's so sick about that scene for me. I wanted to be the one they wanted to abuse, because otherwise I was worthless. This is not a static history lesson. It teaches girls how to feel about themselves. It teaches boys that it's ok to judge women based on their appearance and their sexual use.

I do briefly have to chime in and say - being a "big girl" my whole life, I have posted here before that the particular scene in question has always resonated and cut me to the very core, every single time I rode the attraction. Sometimes I chose not to ride, and not have to deal with the feelings I knew it would bring forth. I always hurt alone, and silent, not sharing those feelings with anyone, lest I be thought "overly sensitive", but I hurt - remembering (and still feeling, sometimes) the bullying, not being included, being overlooked, dismissed, the one left to watch pocketbooks and coats while everyone else gets asked to dance, the one picked last for anything physical, the one overlooked when being asked on a date. I think that's why I find the online world so comfortable - the only "me" somebody sees/can judge me on is my words, or whatever pictures I choose to share (I don't, for a reason).

Sorry to be so melancholy, but I would not have felt right not responding and sharing my deeply personal experience with body shaming, and this is part of what I consider to be my "safe space". I do have to also add that nothing I've said/feel has anything to do with the show, The Team, their discussion, etc. These are my feelings, based on my experiences, and I totally own that. It just so happened this discussion morphed into that area, so I felt compelled to comment.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.

 

[BigAlsGal]

I am female and I will mourn the loss of the pirate scene.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Having an all male panel explain that altering the bridal auction scene was unnecessary in a year when the abuse of women has finally come into the open was horribly tone deaf. Very disappointed. #Metoo

Metoo is much newer than the pirates scene being announced. They don't have a correlation to each other at least in the sense that we are talking about with metoo. Frankly metoo shouldn't be used for anything and everything thing as it will dilute the original meaning.

Also what does an all male panel have to do with it? Surely you're not suggesting that because of my gender I need to be on one side or the other? And as I'm female I guess I'm supposed to be in full support of removing the scene .

If you're suggesting that because they happen to be men so they shouldn't be allowed to have a discussion on it even if you don't agree with them count me as thinking that's counterproductive.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

As a girl, I thought it came off as dismissive, calling it "nit picking" and people looking for a reason to be outrage. There are people who are genuinely upset by that scene, even if I personally am not. TBH, it never bothered me. But I wanted to ask Pete as a serious question, if the violence of that scene was against the LGBT community, would you say you feel the same about leaving it in? And maybe he genuinely would.
Personally, I was initially completely against the change. BUT I think I was stunned to realize just about EVERY girl has a metoo story. After that, I was like, yeah it needs to change.
Thanks for speaking up Clare.

I also saw someone mention, which got me thinking more than my initial take, "what if it was people of color being auctioned off, which Pirates also did. Would we be ok with the scene? If not then why is this ok?"

Personally I don't think the scene *needed* to change as I can separate robot pirates from real life but I also have sceen/read accounts from people that did have an issue with it (no idea what percentage of park goers but > 0%) and I also don't think it *needed* to not change and doesn't destroy the integrity of the ride or anything - I expect to still enjoy the ride with the new scene

I do get the point I think Pete and the panel were trying to make of Disney shouldn't change something because someone complains (I know in the past there was a story of a family who wrote a letter saying they needed to remove the natives from the John male Cruise as another example) - but I think everything should be evaluated separately and certainly see some positive aspects of this change that likely outweigh any negative ones (which includes the history of the attraction and the fact it is the last one Walt personally had a hand in designing - this scene in question specifically is one he saw and approved/liked - so it is almost like a historic place)

 

[disneyland_is_magic]

I am looking forward to seeing the change and hopeful it improves the experience. I have heard positive feedback on DLP.
I am working on having more faith in Disney, because honestly a lot of changes I initially lost my mind over proved very positive. Off the top of my head, the Max Pass is one, DL fans came completely unglued, and it's getting RAVE reviews. GOTG at DCA is another example. I went into D23 with a lot of apprehension, but I thought all the announcements showed Disney was innovating and still completely in touch with their fans. As a DL fan, our fear of losing our beloved PTN, also proved unfounded.
I am optimistic Pirates will be better.

 

[samsteele]

I think the main thing is keep the dialogue going.

This I can always agree with. Good people can agree to disagree. Provided we do so respectfully.

Like many women, I can personally identify with the #MeToo movement. Sexual discrimination is pervasive in all work settings including professional office settings. I have experienced significant, immediate & harsh retaliation by male superiors when I refused their advances in the work place. It is sobering and can be catastrophic for careers. I have had to resign from at least one promising placement. It had an impact on my ability to find another job as male interviewers read into why I didn't stay longer at a previous position and stick it out. I have also had male friends who have had career ending & demeaning experiences when female superiors exerted their own ownership over them. It's a horrifying experience to be in regardless of gender. Work place degradation is about power and ownership. It objectifies good colleagues and demeans them into a piece of meat. I've been there. There is no excuse.

My disagreement with the change to the Pirates experience is nuanced. I enjoyed the ride as a child and never saw the negative. Pirates were bad by definition. It was part of the Pirate experience. As an adult career woman, I watched the Red Head and saw a strong, defiant woman at the auction giving a kiss my something retort, looking everyone including the Pirates and the guests in the eye and being the best, strongest survivor in the bunch. The Red Head personified strength. To change her now, and give her guns/sword and a Pirate Hat in the the wake of political awakening, is sad. She was strong without the weapons and costume. She was/is strong because of who she was inside as a woman.

Many of us will never agree about this change. I am heartened that we can at least exchange insights & personal experiences without personal attacks.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I am looking forward to seeing the change and hopeful it improves the experience. I have heard positive feedback on DLP.
I am working on having more faith in Disney, because honestly a lot of changes I initially lost my mind over proved very positive. Off the top of my head, the Max Pass is one, DL fans came completely unglued, and it's getting RAVE reviews. GOTG at DCA is another example. I went into D23 with a lot of apprehension, but I thought all the announcements showed Disney was innovating and still completely in touch with their fans. As a DL fan, our fear of losing our beloved PTN, also proved unfounded.
I am optimistic Pirates will be better.

I'd also add Happily ever After replacing Wishes to your list of things I was worried about changing but think they did a good job with

 

[OKW Lover]

Being a guy I've (obviously) never experienced the adverse treatment of women that many of the posters here have been through. All I've got to say is that I abhor it. I've never found a woman that didn't deserve as much respect as a guy is usually given by default. Of course there are plenty of guys that don't deserve the respect, just as there are women that don't either.

 

[SorcererHeidi]

Being a guy I've (obviously) never experienced the adverse treatment of women that many of the posters here have been through. All I've got to say is that I abhor it. I've never found a woman that didn't deserve as much respect as a guy is usually given by default. Of course there are plenty of guys that don't deserve the respect, just as there are women that don't either.

Nicely put, @OKW Lover , and agree.

BTW - LOVE your new "tag line sticker" (or whatever they're called - the "Every Disney Park thingie"). Color me jelly!

 

[OKW Lover]

LOVE your new "tag line sticker"

Thanks! I'm pretty proud of that too!. I have the t-shirt as well.