Benefits not the same if purchase a resale...is this true?

[Brian Noble]

Yep, this has been well and truly debunked.

We're now in the navel-gazing speculation phase of the discussion.

 

[Dean]

I disagree. A resale purchase can benefit DVC because many people (would love to know the statistic!) who buy in also add on points later. Add ons direct thru DVC can be more attractive than resale for getting the right UY and pricing is a wash btw DVC and resale on small add ons.

Maybe, but they've lost the sale on the first purchase. The question ultimately is how many additional points would DVC sell retail if they had a different set up and how many would simply not buy in. Having a viable resale market does help with a FEW sales, but not nearly as much or as often as some here would like to believe. There likely is an optimal balance between retail and resale but I doubt it's where we're currently at if overall DVC sales (and sales efficiency) are the the end point.

I think that's a great point. There are other, VERY tangible, benefits that Disney could offer to direct sales buyers that would cost them almost nothing. Fast passes, priority room assignment, priority access to dining reservations...a whole HOST of them....which would work better. They'd have a more tangible benefit for MOST users and they woudln't create a negative customer experience for those buying resale.

And they would have far less operational effects on the existing administration of the program.

I also agree with Jim on this. If they were going to change the benefits, THESE would seem like the least likely ones to change.

Here's a more realistic list.

Future resale buyer

• Can exchange with RCI & BVTC at the RCI going rate.
• No DCL, CC, ABD or DC exchange options.
• No AP pass discounts.
• Pays $25 per event to bank, borrow or transfer points
• Pays for ME, Internet, etc.

Current owners and future retails buyers pick up those additional options and lose the additional fees.

IF there is a tiered VIP system with say 3 levels, it might look something like this.

Level 1 - Standard

• Reservations at 11/7 months
• X amount of points for the various options, lets use 100 as a representation
• No Pass discounts
• Banking, borrowing and transfer fees

Level II all of the above except no fees, pass discounts and the ability to make reservations at their home resort a week earlier and up to 2 weeks at a time. The "exchange" would be say 90 points.

Level III - the same except a larger AP discount, fast passes, another week priority on reservations and the exchange at say 80 points.

Obviously one can come up with an infinite number of different possibilities. Just be certain that to get to a points where some have additional benefits, some others are going to be at the bottom and will lose benefits. This is a given other than for limited sales incentives.

I know some are going to argue that a priority can't be given to one group over another for reservations and I can see that argument but I personally believe they could do it if they wanted and still be within the legal options in the POS and other papers. It would be an easier case to make for the 7 month window than the 11 month though.

 

[dbs1228]

oh bummer it did not make 400 post by today!

 

[javamom]

Yep, this has been well and truly debunked.

We're now in the navel-gazing speculation phase of the discussion.

I just spit coffee all over my monitor! Thanks for the laugh!

 

[BeccaG]

We're now in the navel-gazing speculation phase of the discussion.

That made me laugh!!!

 

[rlcerabone]

i hope this is not true. Maybe its hipe. I almost sold my mebership 3 years because of a financial situation, but iam glad i did not. No other hotels compare to DW.

 

[schwenksvillemouse]

I've been thinking about this somemore. I do believe the OP when she stated what she was told. I subscribe to the where there's smoke there's fire on this. I think the guide let something out that he should not have. If anyone thinks for a minute DVC wouldn't turn the screws on resales they are fooling themselves. Just look what Marriott did. They are really revamping their whole timeshare program by moving to a points based system. They are pushing members to change their deeded weeks to points. If you bought resale after 6/20/10 you can't enroll in the points system, and they also have not even started a points resale program yet.

I could be wrong, and I hope I'm not, but I'm concerned.

 

[DisDaydreamer]

I've got ten bucks says it will !

Hmmm... I just took a number of bills out of my wallet and they didn't say anything at all... Was it just one $10 bill talking to you or a group of smaller bills? I didn't have a $10 bill, so I am not sure if that's the difference. Frankly, I don't like talking money. Gives me the creeps. Makes me feel like I'm hallucinating or something.

 

[princessbride6205]

Maybe, but they've lost the sale on the first purchase. The question ultimately is how many additional points would DVC sell retail if they had a different set up and how many would simply not buy in. Having a viable resale market does help with a FEW sales, but not nearly as much or as often as some here would like to believe. There likely is an optimal balance between retail and resale but I doubt it's where we're currently at if overall DVC sales (and sales efficiency) are the the end point.

Here's a more realistic list.

Future resale buyer

• Can exchange with RCI & BVTC at the RCI going rate.
• No DCL, CC, ABD or DC exchange options.
• No AP pass discounts.
• Pays $25 per event to bank, borrow or transfer points
• Pays for ME, Internet, etc.

Current owners and future retails buyers pick up those additional options and lose the additional fees.

IF there is a tiered VIP system with say 3 levels, it might look something like this.

Level 1 - Standard

• Reservations at 11/7 months
• X amount of points for the various options, lets use 100 as a representation
• No Pass discounts
• Banking, borrowing and transfer fees

Level II all of the above except no fees, pass discounts and the ability to make reservations at their home resort a week earlier and up to 2 weeks at a time. The "exchange" would be say 90 points.

Level III - the same except a larger AP discount, fast passes, another week priority on reservations and the exchange at say 80 points.

Obviously one can come up with an infinite number of different possibilities. Just be certain that to get to a points where some have additional benefits, some others are going to be at the bottom and will lose benefits. This is a given other than for limited sales incentives.

I hope no one at DVC sees your list! I would be completely horrified by the tier system - at least in the way you have suggested could happen. I love that we are full members despite only owning 90 points. A fee to bank and borrow points and losing the AP discount would be the worst things for the way we vacation.

On the topic of DVC trying to get more business by discouraging resale...
If DVC is indeed feeling pressure due to resales, I have to say that DVC brought this on themselves to some degree. Raising direct prices and ROFR'ing less have widened the gap with resale prices. The dollar amount that points direct through Disney has gone up the past year or so completely does not reflect resale prices or the overall economy. All of their webcasts this year have been a joke as far as discounts, they have mainly just had the existing incentives. Maybe none of that would have made a difference, at the end of the day, they just want to make more money and their views of how to do that differ from mine.

 

[Dean]

I hope no one at DVC sees your list! I would be completely horrified by the tier system - at least in the way you have suggested could happen. I love that we are full members despite only owning 90 points. A fee to bank and borrow points and losing the AP discount would be the worst things for the way we vacation.

On the topic of DVC trying to get more business by discouraging resale...
If DVC is indeed feeling pressure due to resales, I have to say that DVC brought this on themselves to some degree. Raising direct prices and ROFR'ing less have widened the gap with resale prices. The dollar amount that points direct through Disney has gone up the past year or so completely does not reflect resale prices or the overall economy. All of their webcasts this year have been a joke as far as discounts, they have mainly just had the existing incentives. Maybe none of that would have made a difference, at the end of the day, they just want to make more money and their views of how to do that differ from mine.

This is widely known info in the timeshare world with several other companies having such VIP systems. If my posting the info gave them ideas, they're not doing their jobs very well. I doubt we'll see this at DVC but you never know. I think the most we might see is a differentiation between resale and retail with then current owners grandfathered in. The only people likely to be stuck if that happens would be
those looking to buy resale, those in the middle of a resale and those looking to sell as this would erode resale value. From time to time people post about potential add ons they'd like to see for retail buyers that would in effect create a tiered system. My main point was that IF this happened it wouldn't be free, that current owners and/or resale buyers would have to move a step or more down to create a separation rather than just adding on for those retail buyers.

 

[gkrykewy]

On the topic of DVC trying to get more business by discouraging resale...
If DVC is indeed feeling pressure due to resales, I have to say that DVC brought this on themselves to some degree. Raising direct prices and ROFR'ing less have widened the gap with resale prices. The dollar amount that points direct through Disney has gone up the past year or so completely does not reflect resale prices or the overall economy. All of their webcasts this year have been a joke as far as discounts, they have mainly just had the existing incentives. Maybe none of that would have made a difference, at the end of the day, they just want to make more money and their views of how to do that differ from mine.

I agree with this. The $120pp direct cost is simply mindblowing and inexplicable.

 

[Lil' Grumpy]

ok, someone from the store hinted @ they have a good relationship
with dvc? i think regular members should be advised if it is official
or friendship [ working together or having guides that are working
2 jobs kind of stuff?] . if it is in offical capacity then members
should be made aware by the dvc organization.

as for naming guides that are misleading & not being able to post
their names... i don't understand why neither. though our problems
were not directly related to a misleading guide, it was during my
processing & interacting with member services, things happened
that set off alarms that there are dvc workers taking advantage
of owners.

i think they are setting things up for the future & based on getting
the most out of dvc owners.

 

[JimMIA]

ok, someone from the store hinted @ they have a good relationship
with dvc? i think regular members should be advised if it is official
or friendship [ working together or having guides that are working
2 jobs kind of stuff?] . if it is in offical capacity then members
should be made aware by the dvc organization.

I don't know what you're getting at, but TTS has had a very good professional relationship with DVC for many years. They are the dominant player in the DVC resale marketplace and have been for a long time. They interact daily with DVC on ROFR, estoppel, and all the other details of DVC contracts. At least some of TTS's licensed associates are former DVC guides, and I suspect most of them are also DVC owners. I'm sure there is nothing unusual or improper about any of the realtionships on either side.

as for naming guides that are misleading & not being able to post
their names... i don't understand why neither.

That's been explained several times, including in this thread. Even if you don't "understand" it, the prohibition against naming Disney employees is longstanding DIS policy and I doubt it's going to change. If you have questions, a PM to one of the moderators would probably be a better route to take. They've already explained it here, and they're not going to waste their time repeating the reasons over and over.

 

[jarestel]

Frankly, I don't like talking money.

The only thing money ever said to me was buh-bye! But I didn't like it either.

 

[parlay]

@ the OP. I hope you are planning to call DVC to complain about the deceptive practice of these particular salespeople.

 

[smjj]

While reading this thread a little here a little there I remembered a conversation I had while sitting in a hot tub at SSR about 5 years ago. I explained to others in the tub that we bought from the TSS two contracts and we were very happy with all matters concerning these purchases. One gentleman was completely unaware you could buy resale from other than Disney and the other guy(from Baltimore so there already was some tension) stated that was not right and Disney should crack down on this practice and stop it. He was convienced if Disney did not sell it, it was not a true DVC membership with all the priviledges. I tried my best but to no avail. We ended up talking about how we(Indy stole their Colts) and I reminded him how they got their team from Cleveland. Anyway there are a lot of mis-conseptions out there about how re-sales work and that is too bad because spending this much money, people need to have all the facts...smjj

 

[marie1981]

I am far from beeing a legal expert but, weather we buy it direct or resale, we are, in both case, buying a portion of a property and all the legal stuff is the same for both, no ?

So, I think it is normal that Disney offers incentive to people who wants to buy direct, but once the sale is done, I do not see how the priviledges could different.

I do not see it as a great incentive if guides are telling possible buyers that, if they ever want to sell, nobody will buy it because nobody will ever buy thru resale because of new discriminating laws .

 

[Brian Noble]

Not necessarily. The "portion of the property" is the same, but the way you use it can very well be different---that's governed by the condo association documents, and in most cases (including DVC's) those are written in such a way that more or less allows the developer to change them at will. As an extreme (and facetious) example, you could imagine the association rules changing such that resale buyers could only use their points at their home resort.

I do not see it as a great incentive if guides are telling possible buyers that, if they ever want to sell, nobody will buy it because nobody will ever buy thru resale because of new discriminating laws

You would think so. But, nearly every other timeshare developer has some mechanism to devalue resales; apparently, they believe such devaluation helps rather than hurts.

 

[hakepb]

I am far from beeing a legal expert but, weather we buy it direct or resale, we are, in both case, buying a portion of a property and all the legal stuff is the same for both, no ?

So, I think it is normal that Disney offers incentive to people who wants to buy direct, but once the sale is done, I do not see how the priviledges could different.

I do not see it as a great incentive if guides are telling possible buyers that, if they ever want to sell, nobody will buy it because nobody will ever buy thru resale because of new discriminating laws .

I'd imagine a good sales person would never bring up any form of doubt. They would be spending their time talking about why DVC is the best decision you could ever make.

 

[Dean]

I am far from beeing a legal expert but, weather we buy it direct or resale, we are, in both case, buying a portion of a property and all the legal stuff is the same for both, no ?

So, I think it is normal that Disney offers incentive to people who wants to buy direct, but once the sale is done, I do not see how the priviledges could different.

I do not see it as a great incentive if guides are telling possible buyers that, if they ever want to sell, nobody will buy it because nobody will ever buy thru resale because of new discriminating laws .

There are essentially 3 components (home resort, internal exchanges such as other DVC resorts and ancillary options like DCL, DC). The onlly one with any real legal protection is the home resort. There are some legal frameworks for how certain things must be done/managed for the club portion and essentially no legal controls on the other options. From a home resort usage standpoint there are fair protections but it really doesn't go any further, IMO. Even then they have 100% say so with essentially no protections over reservations.