Benefits not the same if purchase a resale...is this true?

[Brian Noble]

A resale purchase can benefit DVC because many people (would love to know the statistic!) who buy in also add on points later. Add ons direct thru DVC can be more attractive than resale for getting the right UY and pricing is a wash btw DVC and resale on small add ons.

There are a lot of ifs there---if the resale buyer adds on, and if they add on through Disney rather than resale. The only thing that contributes to the bottom line is the sale *by Disney*. Sure, people exposed to DVC units are more likely to buy---but there are lots of ways to get that exposure.

A resale purchase benefits the Disney company as a whole because it means years of me committing to spend my money there - tickets, food, more visits because our room is prepaid, etc.

But, they *lose* the commitment of the original owner, so it doesn't help. As for additional spending by members---that's entirely speculation. It's just as valid to argue the opposite point; an infrequent visitor is more likely to "splurge" on their trip---more dining, more souvenirs, etc.---because they know they aren't coming back and this is the only chance to eat in the castle, buy that shirt, whatever. But, even if you are right, they still lose the original member, so they still don't win.

In any event, that room will still get used if the original owner doesn't sell---they will rent points, give a trip to family, exchange in World Passport, or take a cruise; all of these options get someone *else* (perhaps an infrequent visitor, or perhaps a frequent one) into the room. Even if the Member doesn't use the points at all, the room goes to breakage, and CRO can firesale it if they want---say, by upgrading someone from a Value room.

And, on the flip side, every resale purchaser is someone who won't buy those points directly from Disney. True, not everyone will have paid the additional expense of the spread, but some of them would.

There's just no way to argue that resale is beneficial to the Mouse. None whatsoever.

 

[Brian Noble]

Timeshare resales may as well be brand new off the shelf.

There's a fellow over on TUG, by the name of Alan Cole, who likes to point out that, indeed, there is no such thing as a "new" timeshare. All timeshares are used-used-used. By the time the "new" timeshare buyer stays in that unit, it's a virtual guarantee that someone else has *already* slept in that bed, sat on those cushions, and burned toast in that toaster.

 

[pilferk]

When you buy something from a yard sale, you really aren't getting the same product as a "new" item. With DVC contracts, used and new are identical.

I agree, mostly, with your assessment. One thing: Resales contracts could very well have borrowed/used points while, if I remember correctly, DVC direct contracts don't (they're "full"). It's a minor detail, with minimal effect over the life of the contract, but it bears pointing out. Granted, pricing of the resale should reflect it, and you go in with full disclosure (or you should).

I don't think Parks and Resorts agrees with the "cost them almost nothing" aspect, which is why we haven't received such benefits.

DVC marketing must compensate P&R for every one of the instant fastpass cards given out at sales presentations.

Are you SURE about that? That DVC pays for them? Any idea what the cost would be?

I'd be shocked if it cost them much, at all. But if you have concrete info to the contrary, I'd be interested to hear it.

Counting lockoffs separately, there are over 4000 DVC villa rooms at WDW now. Given the occupancy of those rooms, conservatively we're talking 20,000+ members/friends/family/renters on any given day. Spread over the parks--even with the assumption of some guests not going to the parks--and it's a pretty big population.

Consider the impact on attractions like Soarin, Toy Story Mania and Expedition Everest if you have 2000+ DVC members heading straight for the FastPass machines throughout the morning to redeem their instant FastPasses.

4000 rooms, across 4 parks, figure average occupancy of 3.5 (I'm completely guessing if you want to make another guess, I'm open to it). Assume 96% occupancy? That's about 3300 people per park (assuming they all go to the 4 main parks, and not the waterparks, offsite, or are taking a "pool day"). How many, do you think, would be direct vs resale? My guess would be around 85% direct? So that gets us to 2700 people per park are "direct" DVC members.

BUT you only get one of those "super fastpasses" per stay. The day you activate it is the only day you can use it. And the park you activate it in is the only park you can use it in. So now you have to factor in how many days the average stay is, etc. I'd bet you're looking at more like 700-1000 people per day, per park, actually using one of those super fastpasses.

And then you have to get to the machine, and get the passes you want. Which is pretty much what they do now: join the crowds to do the same thing. I actually think the operational impact, spread across the entire population of the park, would be minimal. I'd need an operational study to be sure, but I suspect it would be like worrying about large tour groups. In the span of thousands of people per day, per park, per attraction? I'd need more proof than assumption on this one.

With regard to dining reservations, consider how other guests would be impacted if those 20,000 DVC members were given a head start on booking popular restaurants like LeCellier, Chef Mickey's or Crystal Palace. During particularly busy days (holidays, days when special events are scheduled), members could take the bulk of the dining reservations before others were even permitted to book.

I'm actually suggesting something more like what Disney does now with the "arrival date +10" rules pertaining to onsite vs offsite guests. You wouldn't have to give DVC direct guests an advantage over the rest of the resort....only over those who bought via resale.

Edit: Another example would be to allow the direct members to book ADR's online but restricting that access to resale owners. Though that would increase CM usage on the phone lines, which would probably be counter to Disney's intent in setting up the online ADR system.

In other words, the theme park operations staff isn't going to allow DVC members to access any special perks which put other guests at a serious disadvantage. They would effectively be telling Passholders, FL residents and even people paying $600 per night for the Poly that they are second-class citizens. That philosophy would clearly show through longer standby times / later FastPass return times at the parks, and reduced ADR availability at the restaurants.

I don't think either of the perks suggested would put a guest at "serious disadvantage". I'd need concrete proof to the contrary. Otherwise, we'll have to agree to disagree on the impact.

 

[tjkraz]

Are you SURE about that? That DVC pays for them? Any idea what the cost would be?

Don't know an exact cost but to paraphrase my source: we pay for every one, they are tracked closely and they aren't cheap.

4000 rooms, across 4 parks, figure average occupancy of 3.5 (I'm completely guessing if you want to make another guess, I'm open to it). Assume 96% occupancy? That's about 3300 people per park (assuming they all go to the 4 main parks, and not the waterparks, offsite, or are taking a "pool day"). How many, do you think, would be direct vs resale? My guess would be around 85% direct? So that gets us to 2700 people per park are "direct" DVC members.

There are a little over 4200 rooms and 30% of them are dedicated 2B and 3B units which hold 9-12 guests.

I'd probably go higher than 3.5 average occupancy.

BUT you only get one of those "super fastpasses" per stay. The day you activate it is the only day you can use it. And the park you activate it in is the only park you can use it in. So now you have to factor in how many days the average stay is, etc. I'd bet you're looking at more like 700-1000 people per day, per park, actually using one of those super fastpasses.

One per STAY? So the guest who spends a couple nights at a DVC before a cruise gets one set of FastPasses...and the UK resident who flies over for 3 weeks also only gets one set.

Not sure that's much of a perk.

And then you have to get to the machine, and get the passes you want. Which is pretty much what they do now: join the crowds to do the same thing. I actually think the operational impact, spread across the entire population of the park, would be minimal. I'd need an operational study to be sure, but I suspect it would be like worrying about large tour groups. In the span of thousands of people per day, per park, per attraction? I'd need more proof than assumption on this one.

Proof?!?! That's a good one.

I'd say the only proof we have to work with is the fact that despite claims that it would be "easy to provide" and "cost almost nothing", Disney hasn't done it. There's your operational study.

Obviously the devil is in the details. If you're only giving out one FP per trip, the impact will be smaller and it will cost less to DVC. But then again it's not much of an incentive to buy direct either.

Even with a small number of FPs given out, it seems obvious to me that the vast majority would be used for just a small number of attractions. Specifically, almost everyone would save theirs for either Toy Story Mania or perhaps Soarin. So the attractions which have the longest wait times now would only get worse. People aren't going to use their highly-coveted DVC instant FastPass for Philharmagic, Living with the Land or Voyage of the Little Mermaid.

I don't think either of the perks suggested would put a guest at "serious disadvantage". I'd need concrete proof to the contrary. Otherwise, we'll have to agree to disagree on the impact.

Well, we can certainly quibble over the degree but it would undeniably send a message that 90% of the guests entering a park on a given day are not on even footing with the cherished DVC members.

Put the shoe on the other food. Would DVC members be understanding if Florida Residents got extra FastPass benefits? How about just Annual Passholders or concierge guests or D23 members?

 

[pilferk]

There are a little over 4200 rooms and 30% of them are dedicated 2B and 3B units which hold 9-12 guests.

I'd probably go higher than 3.5 average occupancy.

First, aren't most of the dedicated 2BR's 8? I thought only the new AKV and BLT's wer 9?

Second, studios hold between 1 and 4 guests. I'm guessing average is somewhere around 3.

2B are often used, in the older resorts, for 5 guests...because the 1B's occupancy lists as 4. My guess was average occupancy around 6.

Honestly, I don't know the answer. But I think 5 is likely too high, and 3 is too low. If you think 4 is more likely, we can go with that.

But here's my math:

4200 * .70 = 2940. 2940 * 3 = 8820
4200 * .30 = 1260 1260 * 6 = 7560
7560+8820 = 16380
16380 / 4200 = 3.9

So we're quibbling over, reasonably I think, about .4 guests per room.

Put the shoe on the other food. Would DVC members be understanding if Florida Residents got extra FastPass benefits? How about just Annual Passholders or concierge guests or D23 members?

What, you mean like free dining? I haven't seen a mass DVC revolt, yet.

Or discounted cash rooms for DVC members at DVC resorts? Haven't seen the regular guests complain yet....

Or lower AP costs for Florida Residents? Don't see the rest of the disney guests raising a ruckus.

Fact is: Disney DOES single out certain populations for promotions, benefits, etc...based on their own business needs/goals.

Again, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm obviously not going to take your say so (my "source"? really?). You (just like I am) are an anonymous poster on a Disney message board. You can't provide concrete proof. So we're left with conjecture and opinion....and I'm not going to see validity in yours any more than you're going to see any in mine.

 

[tjkraz]

What, you mean like free dining? I haven't seen a mass DVC revolt, yet.

Or discounted cash rooms for DVC members at DVC resorts? Haven't seen the regular guests complain yet....

Or lower AP costs for Florida Residents? Don't see the rest of the disney guests raising a ruckus.

Fact is: Disney DOES single out certain populations for promotions, benefits, etc...based on their own business needs/goals.

Price breaks, yes. But I cannot think of any other precedents when it comes to attraction access. That's a slippery slope.

I'm not saying Disney won't ever go down that road...but they haven't thus far which suggests there are others who don't see it as a slam-dunk fantastic idea.

Again, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm obviously not going to take your say so (my "source"? really?). You (just like I am) are an anonymous poster on a Disney message board. You can't provide concrete proof. So we're left with conjecture and opinion....and I'm not going to see validity in yours any more than you're going to see any in mine.

I didn't realize that sources needed to be filed in triplicate.

And I'm a little less anonymous than most people. But feel free to believe what you want to believe.

 

[Brian Noble]

Don't know an exact cost but to paraphrase my source: we pay for every one, they are tracked closely and they aren't cheap.

I'm would not be surprised by this at all. Nothing that any one business unit does for another is "free". Even though it is all one company, the business units are all tracked independently, and each has P/L evaluated separately.

What, you mean like free dining? I haven't seen a mass DVC revolt, yet.

Really? There are threads EVERY SINGLE YEAR about how "unfair" free dining is. They go on for pages and pages and pages---longer than this one, so far.

Or discounted cash rooms for DVC members at DVC resorts? Haven't seen the regular guests complain yet....

Remember the year all those Value guests got upgraded? Plenty of complaints by Members about the unwashed masses in "their" resorts.

And, more closely to the topic at hand, I recall a pretty big brouhaha when the differential FASTPASS patents were the topic du jour.

In summary: when the stakes are small, that's when people get nasty.

 

[pilferk]

I'd say the only proof we have to work with is the fact that despite claims that it would be "easy to provide" and "cost almost nothing", Disney hasn't done it. There's your operational study.

One last thing, then I'm done.

Not having done it isn't proof of anything...except they haven't done it. You can't assign reason or assume motivation based on no action.

They could "not have done it" because they don't need to (or haven't needed to). They see no business benefit to doing it. There's LOTS of potential motivations NOT to do it. That doesn't mean it couldn't be done. That doesn't mean there would be more than minimal cost to do it.

Remember, this is whole tangent is supposition: IF they needed to do something THEN there are other choices other than the one discussed previously. Not "They should do this to increase direct sales". Not "They should have done this".

They obviously don't feel that resales negatively effect them enough to take any sort of action. THAT'S what we know.

 

[pilferk]

Price breaks, yes. But I cannot think of any other precedents when it comes to attraction access. That's a slippery slope.

I'm not saying Disney won't ever go down that road...but they haven't thus far which suggests there are others who don't see it as a slam-dunk fantastic idea.

Handing out FP in "Year of a Million Dreams".

Handing out FP to people who take the DVC tour.

Allowing guests to get front of the line access on a "Keys to the Kingdom" tour.

Allowing guests to experience attractions after hours.

Smaller scale, same principal.

I didn't realize that sources needed to be filed in triplicate.

And I'm a little less anonymous than most people. But feel free to believe what you want to believe.

The thing is: "source" gives no frame of reference. Any one, on any board, could make the same claim. It's not personal, but....I'm not going to take anything anyone says on these boards as gospel without something more compelling than their word.

If you don't have actual proof (or actual verifiable numbers)....just as I wouldn't expect you to take it at face value if I said something similar.

And trust me, you're just as anonymous as any poster attached to a screen name on any board. You have more history. History doesn't mean I'm going to take what you say as gospel if you can't provide more than "my source" as backup.

I have a source that says the world will end in 2012. The guys a crackpot who hangs out on the corner near my office.

And now...really...done.

 

[pilferk]

Really? There are threads EVERY SINGLE YEAR about how "unfair" free dining is. They go on for pages and pages and pages---longer than this one, so far.

Have they sold their memberships because of it? Then they haven't revolted.

Remember the year all those Value guests got upgraded? Plenty of complaints by Members about the unwashed masses in "their" resorts.

I remember a few grumblings, and then a lot of members taking those who were grumbling to task. And a whole lot of "bruhaha" that ensued.

And, more closely to the topic at hand, I recall a pretty big brouhaha when the differential FASTPASS patents were the topic du jour.

In summary: when the stakes are small, that's when people get nasty.

I remember, again, some grumbling from "class-ism" because of the differences between deluxe, mod, and value. I don't recall anyone grumbling because of the benefit, itself.

You're never going to make EVERYONE happy. It's the size of the "complaint group" that you worry about. And as with any board, they tend to be very vocal...so I"m not sure if activity here on the Dis is representative of anything. We saw similar poo poos of SSR on the DIS. By all accounts, it's sold pretty well.

 

[Shleedogg]

Wow, news to me too. When we bought in last July we were discussing purchase through Disney vs resale WITH our guide. She said if we wanted to buy AKV or SSR, she couldn't compete with resale prices; much lower resale and the contracts are the same once you're in the system. We ended up buying BLT through Disney. I would ask to switch or at least speak with another guide.

 

[gkrykewy]

Again, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm obviously not going to take your say so (my "source"? really?). You (just like I am) are an anonymous poster on a Disney message board.

Well, he does run dvcnews.com, which is a credible web site. I think this is a bit much.

 

[pilferk]

Well, he does run dvcnews.com, which is a credible web site. I think this is a bit much.

So?

I feel the same way about "undisclosed source" news articles, even from reputable news sources. I read them with a grain of salt.

He has history. With the boards, and with the community. But if he can't source his information, or get something more concrete....not good enough for me. I would expect to be held to the same standard.

So we'll agree to disagree. I can live with that.

 

[smjj]

Haven't read all the post but this almost sounds like a DVC sales reps. dream to scare people on the fence to buy from Disney and not a re-sale contract??. Is this being cynicial or what...smjj

 

[JimMIA]

Counting lockoffs separately, there are over 4000 DVC villa rooms at WDW now. Given the occupancy of those rooms, conservatively we're talking 20,000+ members/friends/family/renters on any given day. Spread over the parks--even with the assumption of some guests not going to the parks--and it's a pretty big population.

Tim, I think we are talking about two different things here. I'm the one who mentioned fastpasses, but I mentioned it in the context that they could give them ONLY to NEW, DIRECT purchasers as a low-cost vehicle to provide differientiation for direct.

Your assumption is that EVERYone would get them...even renters! If DVC did that, you'd be right -- it would be a huge expense.

But worse than the expense, it would do absolutely zero to enhance the value of buying direct...which was the ONLY objective in the first place!

DVC could give free fastpasses that would work 5 years from their issue date to new, direct purchasers ONLY for very little money. Seriously...what does jumping the line cost Disney? The cost of a plastic card.

Give every family who buys a certain number of points direct 4 FPs -- huge benefit, huge incentive, virtually no cost, real reason to purchase direct.

ETA: If only direct purchasers from a certain date forward were awarded the FP's, it's pretty unlikely that there would be thousands of them in one specific park on one specific date. The operational effect on the park, wait times, etc, would be minimal.

 

[JimMIA]

I'm not saying I'd like to see DVC start giving FP's or some such incentive to new, direct buyers.

My point was that they have many other opportunities for truly worthwhile, low-cost incentives that make the idea of taking away DCL, ABD, and RCI ludicrous.

Personally, if a DVC timeshare salesman told me I'd lose those three options if I purchased resale, my response would be, "Yeah, so?"

I can cruise better and cheaper, I have other RCI options, and I create my own adventures!

 

[tjkraz]

One last thing, then I'm done.

Not having done it isn't proof of anything...except they haven't done it. You can't assign reason or assume motivation based on no action.

Just to clarify since my comments apparently missed the mark--I was simply trying to inject a bit of levity in the debate. Obviously Disney's inaction on this subject does not serve as a feasibility study. Yet it does not seem out of bounds to share opinions as to why use of such a valuable commodity has not expanded.

Instant FastPasses are not some pie-in-the-sky concept. They exist. They work. There have been countless suggestions over the years--in this thread and others--that they would make a great perk for DVC members. Some would even go so far as to suggest that we "deserve" such passes or are "entitled" to them since--in their words--DVC members are obviously the most dedicated of Disney guests and have paid thousands of dollars for ownership.

But I digress.

I have been informed that DVC marketing pays for every instant FastPass card distributed. That information was given to me by someone on DVC's payroll--it's not just an unsubstantiated factoid that I gleaned from someone on the Internet.

Believe me....don't believe me...disprove it if you can. This is not a front page expose in the Washington Post so I am not going to start naming names just to appease you.

That said, I tend to subscribe to Occam's Razor when weighing concepts like this.

Can Disney create instant FastPasses? Yes.

Would DVC members like instant FastPasses? Yes.

Would DVC direct sales improve if instant FastPasses were provided exclusively to direct buyers? Yes.

Would satisfaction improve if instant FastPasses were given as membership perk? Yes.

So given all of the above, why don't DVC members get free instant FastPasses?

The two most logical reasons in my mind are because DVC cannot justify the cost and/or because Parks & Resorts simply will not permit it. P&R's reasons could be varied but chief among their concerns is always the satisfaction of ALL guests.

Yes the passes have been made available during prior promotions--but those are instances where ALL park guests have had the ability to participate. Year of a Million Dreams: everyone could visit the park on their birthday if they so choose. KttK tours are available to everyone, as are DVC sales sessions.

Not everyone is a candidate for DVC ownership, nor can many afford it. And, as you point out, none of those examples is on the scope of passes for all DVC members.

Disagree with my conclusions if you wish. That is certainly your prerogative. But I do believe this is a DISCUSSION forum. Deductive reasoning may be inexact, but it's often all we have to work with. If you would like to point out flaws in my logic, feel free but I don't view my inability to produce a feasibility study as evidence that my conclusions are without merit.

 

[tjkraz]

Tim, I think we are talking about two different things here. I'm the one who mentioned fastpasses, but I mentioned it in the context that they could give them ONLY to NEW, DIRECT purchasers as a low-cost vehicle to provide differientiation for direct.

And that's fine, Jim. Clearly the discussion went off in a different direction and there are multiple ways DVC could structure such a benefit.

I agree that it would be an effective perk for either existing members or simply new buyers. So that brings us back to the issue of why it isn't happening. It's no mystery that instant FastPasses are popular among guests. If they truly have a low cost and are readily accessible, why hasn't DVC leveraged the option better?

Well, I've probably restated my thoughts on that subject enough at this point.

 

[toocherie]

ok--getting back on topic

has anyone else heard anything from their guide and/or Member Services concerning this alleged change in policy?

 

[JimMIA]

ok--getting back on topic

has anyone else heard anything from their guide and/or Member Services concerning this alleged change in policy?

Everybody who has reported back has said it's bogus. No change in policy.