Believe in God, but not the church?

[Aidensmom]

The idea of taking responsibility and accountabilty for one's actions is becoming a rare commodity in today's society. People often living in sin will avoid going to places or talking with people that will hold them accountable or convict them of their sin.

It is the Holy Spirit's job to "convict" someone of thier sin.

I am a little curious by what some of the posters mean by holding someone "accountable." It sounds kind of like some people think that means that it is their responsibility to get someone to behave a certain way. I don't believe that is what it means.

I at the moment don't have a church, as of a week and a half ago. My church was new and struggling, and my pastor decided he was going to go back to join the ministry at an already established church. I am not going to just go to whatever church down the street so that I can say I went, I am going to find a church that I like. It may take me a little while. The truth is there are some churches that are spiritually dead or teach false teachings, and I am not going to attend one of those churches. I also don't feel comfortable in an extremely large church, because as an introverted person, I have a very difficult time getting to know anyone in that kind of circumstance. I really don't care if some people think that is an excuse, because I know that God understands.

Anyway, the point that I want to get to is even if I am not attending church service, it does not mean I am not accountable. I have close friendships with people from my previous church (including my pastor and his wife), from the church I attended before that, and even with people on some internet boards, including some of the ones on this thread, that will give me good Christ-like advice if a situation warrants it. To me, I have people I am accountable to, and are in turn accountable to me. But these people are not going to discipline me in any way, they will let me know what they believe is the Godly thing to do, and then let it be between me and God. We understand that we cannot control each other's behavior, and it is not our place to attempt to do so. I did go through a period some years ago where I backslid. Two of my good friends, who, incidentally, were my pastor and his wife, did indeed state their beliefs on the matter, but then they left my behavior in my hands, to be dealt with between me and God. They would have never asked me to leave the church, and they never stopped being my friends. They still accepted and loved me, despite the fact that they did not agree with all my actions. They let me know what they felt the Bible stated on the matter, it was then my choice in what I was going to do given that knowledge, and to me that is another Christian's part in accountability.

 

[colaz]

Wow...

Ummm first of all, I am a strong Christian and fairly regularly attend church.

Where I really try not to judge people for not going to church...it is hard for me to say this because I am not in some of your positions, but I can't imagine how someone can not go to a church? Personally, it is so much part of my Christian life. By Sunday my spirit feels so down, and sometimes I have to drag myself to church, but the service almost always speaks to me and lightens my spirits!

I really am not trying to judge any of you, but like someone else said on here I hope you keep searching! I've had some nasty church experiences myself, and some of my personal life experiences have...well, pushed me not just away from God but from all of humanity lol.

A lot of people here are talking about the ... 'people' that turn them away from the church. The thing is the people in a church that are more of the troublemakers (stubborn, critical...) are normally the minority but they are the loudest. Other Christians many times actually try to follow the Christian belief and try to 'turn the other cheek.' That is what I have found in some churches anyway.

Again I am really not trying to judge any of you...because I am even thinking of Jesus and some of the people that he got the angriest with were those that judged, but I encourage you to keep searching. I am also not saying that someone can not be a 'good' Christian (I hate that word lol) by not going to church...I just can't imagine church out of my life?

 

[TheDisneyBunch]

I believe in God. I am a Christian. Been saved, baptised and attended Church regularly. However, we do not go to church now. Heck I have not been to church in years. I am just not into the whole Church scene I guess b/c many people there just gossip, look down on others and are very pushy! Seem to think they are better than everyone else. That is just not for me.

..and before I go on..no I am not putting down anyone here or saying anything badly about anyone here so please do not blast me for how I feel about it.

I am a good person and will hopefully one day find a church we care to attend but so far nothing. Also with hubbies work hours we are up at night and sleep in the day so the timing would just not work for us. We would be half asleep..lol

My big thing is just being around people who are really pushy and want you to be this perfect person that they act like they themselves are. People who every word out of their mouth is about God and how you should not do this or should do that. I am bad for watching this movie, or liking that music..i should only listen to gospel, etc... I just can not tolerate that. I live my life the way I choose and I do not need people telling me I am bad for not going to church or I will go to hell for not going to church. I know so many people who really think they have done the worst thing in the world by missing a day of church. I have to ask them everytime..."what do you think you are going to hell now"?? I mean I am religous and know right from wrong and love the lord but those overly religous church crowds are just not my cup of tea. I can pray at home just as well as at church.

Just my 2 cents.....

 

[hokiefan33]

You know, I was really not going to post on this thread again until I got to this. You know what you have said in the past. And yes I am bringing it up once again, but it constantly amazes me that you claim to represent Christ and yet you have spewed such hateful words on this very board. How dare you sit around and criticize other people? How dare you judge? Do you think Jesus Christ would have said many of the things you have spewed on this board?

Well, MJ, if we're going to call an ace an ace and a spade a spade, how about some of the things you have said to me, though they may not be visible to all? The visibility of your words doesn't take away from the fact that some of the things you have said are not Christ-like either. But I guess yours are somehow OK, while mine are not, right?

 

[hokiefan33]

As a true born again Christian,

I just have to say, for the record, That HokieFan and 2funny do NOT represent the Love of Christ, and the love that we are called to have for every one of Christ's children.

Please, to anyone who may be reading this thread... do not come to the conclusion that these negative judgements of these 'men', in any way whatsoever, represent the love and saving grace of Christ!!! This is not what Christ is all about. This is not what 'Christians' are all about. We are expressly forbidden from acting this way!!! Judge not, lest ye be judged... All of our self-righteousnesses are as filthy rags.

These attitudes and beliefs are the very reason why so many people are being turned away from the church, and Christianity!!!

The assumption that, as Christians, we have the power and obligation to judge others, and the obligation to display these negative and judgmental attitudes. This is the 'deception' of the enemy. And, looking at the numbers of people, even Christians, who no longer feel comfortable attending church, due to this very reason, Well, sadly, the enemy is enjoying a lot of success.

And let me say, FOR THE RECORD, that loving your neighbor, however often you quote it, DOES NOT mean you can or should put up with things that are contrary to the teachings of Scripture, which many "Christians" on these boards do day in and day out, unfortunately. A lot of "Christians" are afraid to call sin "sin", but instead call it a "choice" or "between me and God." That is NOT Scriptural AT ALL, and I for one will not participate in it. Loving thy neighbor does not mean condoning their actions. And we are CLEARLY given not only the right but the obligation to "test the spirits" (1 John 4) and to judge those within the church (1 Corinthians 5), so however many "Christians" on here say that is untrue, the Bible CLEARLY backs it up, unequivocally. Just because I don't agree with people's actions, doesn't mean I don't love them. It is most certainly possible to do both.

 

[hokiefan33]

Along with Hebrews 3:12-13, here's another passage about judging. Paul is specific about accountability within the church & agrees with the words of Jesus for those outside the church.

1 Corinthians 5

Expel the Immoral Brother!

1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. 6Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.

9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

If one of my Christian brothers knows I'm engaging in sinful activities, he is required by scripture to attempt to correct me. I think that's the idea of church discipline hokiefan & 2funny2c are speaking of. Again, this only applies to believers.

Careful JimmieJ, now you too will be accused of being yet another moniker that "we" are posting under simply for support!

 

[Miss Jasmine]

Well, MJ, if we're going to call an ace an ace and a spade a spade, how about some of the things you have said to me, though they may not be visible to all? The visibility of your words doesn't take away from the fact that some of the things you have said are not Christ-like either. But I guess yours are somehow OK, while mine are not, right?

I am not claiming self-righteousness. Oh and there are people who do know what I have said to you. Feel free to post what I have said in PMs. I am sure most will agree. That doesn't make it right, but again, I am not sitting here judging the "sins" of others.

As for accountability... my mom was thrown out of a Presbyterian church because she was living with someone. I am sure there were people in that church that lied everyday, but somehow her sin was worse. However, she did not let it get to her. She went and found another church for us. Thankfully some churches still accept sinners.

 

[2funny2c]

Accussing people of having multiple screen names and accounts is just a way for them to try and marginalize a person's viewpoint because they don't have anything further to add to the discussion.

The funny thing is that these people that accuse others of this are OK with people joining in on their side of the discussion but don't like it if there are multiple people speaking against their position.

Since we all know that people cant share similiar opinions then it has to be the same person posting under different names.

If it makes them feel better about their position and it is further self justification, then have at it.

Just more of attack the poster and not discussing the content of the posts.

In the future, waving a white flag may be a more appropriate response for these people.

 

[hokiefan33]

I am not claiming self-righteousness. Oh and there are people who do know what I have said to you. Feel free to post what I have said in PMs. I am sure most will agree. That doesn't make it right, but again, I am not sitting here judging the "sins" of others.

As for accountability... my mom was thrown out of a Presbyterian church because she was living with someone. I am sure there were people in that church that lied everyday, but somehow her sin was worse. However, she did not let it get to her. She went and found another church for us. Thankfully some churches still accept sinners.

Gee, where exactly did I claim self-righteousness myself? I don't think I did, I think others (including yourself) inferred that I did from what I right. I have never said that I don't sin - I know I do. But that doesn't mean I can't call out things which clearly contradict Scripture.

As to what you said, and the fact that others know it, I could care less WHO knows it. As I've told you, as long as I'm held to a certain standard of what I can and cannot post, based upon complaints that have been made, I will make sure that others are also held to that same standard when posting about or to me, to keep the playing field fair. You seem really caught up, though, on making sure that you have a "corner" who also knows what is going on.

As another poster has said (who I am not, though if people want to link us together they are more than welcome to, b/c I find I agree with nearly everything they've written), most people who post on these boards, and specifically on this topic, don't understand the Biblical, contextual meanings of the word "judge" or "judgment" when they write about it, whether they think they do or not. But I suppose most never will, b/c they want to make those words mean whatever suits them best, without even trying to study and see what they ACTUALLY mean and were intended to mean.

As to the situation with your mom, I will only say that I applaud the church for taking a stance on something that is spelled out in the Bible, whether you agree with it or not.

 

[hokiefan33]

Accussing people of having multiple screen names and accounts is just a way for them to try and marginalize a person's viewpoint because they don't have anything further to add to the discussion.

The funny thing is that these people that accuse others of this are OK with people joining in on their side of the discussion but don't like it if there are multiple people speaking against their position.

Since we all know that people cant share similiar opinions then it has to be the same person posting under different names.

If it makes them feel better about their position and it is further self justification, then have at it.

Just more of attack the poster and not discussing the content of the posts.

In the future, waving a white flag may be a more appropriate response for these people.

Well said. Oh wait, maybe I'm quoting myself...

 

[Miss Jasmine]

Gee, where exactly did I claim self-righteousness myself? I don't think I did, I think others (including yourself) inferred that I did from what I right. I have never said that I don't sin - I know I do. But that doesn't mean I can't call out things which clearly contradict Scripture.

Just about every single one of your posts come off as self-righteous including this one. You don't need to claim it to be it.

As to what you said, and the fact that others know it, I could care less WHO knows it. As I've told you, as long as I'm held to a certain standard of what I can and cannot post, based upon complaints that have been made, I will make sure that others are also held to that same standard when posting about or to me, to keep the playing field fair. You seem really caught up, though, on making sure that you have a "corner" who also knows what is going on.

Sorry, I don't have a corner, I just have friends who share similar feelings and thoughts that I have shared things with.

As another poster has said (who I am not, though if people want to link us together they are more than welcome to, b/c I find I agree with nearly everything they've written), most people who post on these boards, and specifically on this topic, don't understand the Biblical, contextual meanings of the word "judge" or "judgment" when they write about it, whether they think they do or not. But I suppose most never will, b/c they want to make those words mean whatever suits them best, without even trying to study and see what they ACTUALLY mean and were intended to mean.

That is your and the other poster's interpretation. One day we will all find out what it REALLY means.

As to the situation with your mom, I will only say that I applaud the church for taking a stance on something that is spelled out in the Bible, whether you agree with it or not.

Well then I guess everyone who has had premaritial sex should be thrown out. Everyone who has lied should be thrown out. Everyone who has had a lustful thought should be thrown out. Hmmm church would be a VERY EMPTY place then, don't you think?

 

[hokiefan33]

Just about every single one of your posts come off as self-righteous including this one. You don't need to claim it to be it.

Thanks for proving my point. I didn't say it, you inferred it, which is exactly what I said you, and others, did. Appreciate it.

Sorry, I don't have a corner, I just have friends who share similar feelings and thoughts that I have shared things with.

Gee, so do I. But I guess since my friends share MY beliefs, but your friends share YOUR beliefs, yours are right, correct? Hmmm.....

That is your and the other poster's interpretation. One day we will all find out what it REALLY means.

You're right - it is our interpretation. Not because that's what we WANT it to mean, but b/c if you go back and TRULY study the words and context, that IS what it means. If Matthew meant "don't judge", and Paul meant "do judge", then Scripture would contradict itself, and one of the basic beliefs about the Bible is that it does NOT contradict itself. So, if that's the case, then those 2 Scriptures CANNOT be taken exactly the way most people on here (including yourself) think they are meant. Unless, of course, you do believe that it is OK for Scripture to contradict itself. Is that what you're saying???

Well then I guess everyone who has had premaritial sex should be thrown out. Everyone who has lied should be thrown out. Everyone who has had a lustful thought should be thrown out. Hmmm church would be a VERY EMPTY place then, don't you think?

No, I don't. When 1 John says that you Christians no longer sin, what do you think it means? That we truly commit no more sins? Impossible, according to Romans 3:23. When viewed in its context (I don't know why context is such a hard concept for most people on these boards to understand, but any good Bible scholar will tell you that context is one of the keys to interpreting and understanding the Bible), it means that the desire to sin, and sin habitually, will not be present. We will still sin, but we will be more aware of it, and we will repent of it and strive to change, and will not openly do something contrary to Scripture just b/c we want to or feel it is between "me and God." That is the difference. I have no idea re: the circumstances surrounding what you reference. However, I know that in my church, if a couple joined the church, and they were living together but not married, our pastor would counsel them to live separately until they were married. And if they refused to do so, they would be asked to leave, b/c at that point they are openly sinning against what the Bible says, and are unwilling to repent of it. They are habitually sinning day after day, even after being asked to stop, so they are choosing to sin, rather than live right. And again, according to 1 Corinthians 5, we are commanded to not let that happen!

 

[imsorry]

Hokie, you looked fabu on Wife Swap last night. When is the bypass scheduled?

 

[Mackey Mouse]

I am locking this thread now...it has run its course.