Bar Stool Economics

[Purseval]

Everything I've read so far pretty much sums up the attitude of Americans right now. They seem to believe that the rich got that way either through outright dishonesty or somehow stacking the deck against the little guys. Because of this belief they are somehow "entitled" to the money that the rich have. They also use extreme examples of robber barons to justify their attitudes, even though the typical American millionaire got that way through many years of hard work, savings and frugal living (for a good read on this look in your library for a book called The Millionaire next Door). Pretty sad state of affairs and it's destined to collapse with calamitous results.

 

[PeterPan09]

I thought you were discussing the joke-which is what it is. It's an exaggeration that bears little resemblance to real life. It feeds into the myth that everyone in America (except the noble Republicans who do all the work and live in God's country) is just waiting for government to come along and give them houses, cars and Disney vacations for free.

Everything I've read so far pretty much sums up the attitude of Americans right now. They seem to believe that the rich got that way either through outright dishonesty or somehow stacking the deck against the little guys. Because of this belief they are somehow "entitled" to the money that the rich have. They also use extreme examples of robber barons to justify their attitudes, even though the typical American millionaire got that way through many years of hard work, savings and frugal living (for a good read on this look in your library for a book called The Millionaire next Door). Pretty sad state of affairs and it's destined to collapse with calamitous results.

Seems that we have conflicting myths here.....

 

[Contemporary_Man]

A person whose hand I'd like to shake. Same with Warren Buffet. People who understand that you can make a whole lot of money and still be a decent human being.

The majority of wealthy people are decent human beings. Money does automatically make someone a horrible person. Yes there are some bad apples, but there are bad apples across all socio-economic groups.

 

[MiniGirl]

I thought you were discussing the joke-which is what it is. It's an exaggeration that bears little resemblance to real life. It feeds into the myth that everyone in America (except the noble Republicans who do all the work and live in God's country) is just waiting for government to come along and give them houses, cars and Disney vacations for free.

I do not read the essay that way at all. I never read anywhere that those who pay nothing are expecting the government to come along and give them anything. What I see is them getting upset when the 10th guy gets what they perceive as a bigger piece of the price cut, and we see that ALL the time. And did he get a bigger price break? If you look at dollars paid, then yes. If you look at percentages, then no. If we want to look strictly at dollars paid, fine. Is it fair that he paid $59/week (or $49/ after the price cut), when others paid nothing or much less? You can't use percentages when it benefits the first 4 (or 5 guys) and then switch to actual dollars paid when it comes to the reduction in price because it doesn't benefit those first guys as much. It has to be one or the other.

Also, FTR, I am a registered Republican mainly because I like to be able to vote in the primaries, but I often cross party lines or vote 3rd party (which I did on this past election) because neither major party really fits my beliefs. My dh is a union member and we are pro-labor. I hate that the upper management congratulated themselves on getting pay cuts by giving themselves bonuses equalling the pay cut, so believe me. I am not trying to condone what some CEOs are doing. However, not all do those sorts of things, and regardless of all that, they still pay the lion's share of the taxes in this country.

 

[JMD]

I'm saying that they have been able to achieve and receive much from this society, and there's no reason why they should not be expected to contribute to society in direct proportion to what they have received. As my income has risen, so has my tax debt. That's what a progressive tax system means. I've never thought of refusing an increase in salary because it would mean I'd pay more taxes. Would you? If someone offered me CEO level pay today, I'd take it and pay the higher taxes without a word of complaint, knowing that I'd still have plenty left over to have a wonderful lifestyle.

What exactly do they recieve from Society? What they have acheived is more likely a direct result of their own hardwork and ingenuity, and not something they should be forced to pay back.

 

[PeterPan09]

The majority of wealthy people are decent human beings. Money does automatically make someone a horrible person. Yes there are some bad apples, but there are bad apples across all socio-economic groups.

Sure, but why doesn't that argument work on the low end? Why aren't the majority of poor people considered "decent human beings"? Why are they considered lazy, as people who won't make the effort necessary to get a job, as people who are waiting for the government to hand them everything for free?

I've been hearing that sentiment for years at my Republican dominated office, and at internet boards I've been part of. It's just as prevailing an attitude as the converse-that all rich people are selfish and greedy. Shoot, everyone saw that crazy CNBC guy talk about how he didn't want to pay for someone else's mortgage, implying that everyone in trouble got that way because they lied about their income or used their house as an ATM. Sure there are folks that did that, but there's also some decent honest folks that got caught up in this mess.

 

[ford family]

One of the great strengths of the USA was always its peoples "can do" attitude. Seeing a person who is driving a fine car the anecdotal response was always "I can work hard and get that too"
Elsewhere in the world, especially socialist Europe, the response would be "I want that, I'll take his".
The politics of envy has taken root in the USA over the last few years and I find it terribly sad and disappointing. If we can't view the USA as a meritocratic society any more but, instead, one where entitlement replaces personal responsibility then the process of "trickle up poverty" has truly begun.

ford family

 

[PeterPan09]

What exactly do they recieve from Society? What they have acheived is more likely a direct result of their own hardwork and ingenuity, and not something they should be forced to pay back.

There are many, many rich people who know darn well that they got where they are by a COMBINATION of their own hard work and good fortune.

 

[cindy_belle]

Most wealthy people have worked HARD and/or taken many risks for whatever rewards they have reaped.

I know plenty of very wealthy people and every single one of them has EARNED their high salary, it was not just "given" to them. They have earned their salary by working long, hard hours, taking personal economic risks, providing a service that is superior or innovative or by climbing the corporate ladder by doing the best job possible. Each and every one of these people deserve the success and financial rewards they have reaped.

Very few of these people are CEO's of major corporations. Many people seem to be focusing on a very small group of people when this tax increase will affect so many more than them.

It seems unfair to disrespect them for being successful just because you are not AS successful. Think about your choices in life and not others.

 

[MiniGirl]

Sure, but why doesn't that argument work on the low end? Why aren't the majority of poor people considered "decent human beings"? Why are they considered lazy, as people who won't make the effort necessary to get a job, as people who are waiting for the government to hand them everything for free?

I've been hearing that sentiment for years at my Republican dominated office, and at internet boards I've been part of. It's just as prevailing an attitude as the converse-that all rich people are selfish and greedy. Shoot, everyone saw that crazy CNBC guy talk about how he didn't want to pay for someone else's mortgage, implying that everyone in trouble got that way because they lied about their income or used their house as an ATM. Sure there are folks that did that, but there's also some decent honest folks that got caught up in this mess.

It does. Personally I like to think the majority of people out there are "decent human beings" regardless of how much money they make (or don't make). I don't try to lump anyone in with a certain group until they give me reason to do so. There are many hardworking people who just can't seem to catch a break, and for them, I'm glad we have the services we do. However, it is a fact that there are those out there who are working the system. I know because I have met a few who brag about how they do it. I have never heard anyone say they didn't think we should pay any taxes at all -- although I am sure those people are out there. I think the vast majority of people are more than happy to pay a fair share. Many people though think if someone has more left over after taxes, then they aren't paying their "fair share," and that is where it gets sticky. We have more left over after taxes because we just don't buy a lot of things we don't need. Money burns a hole in my bff's pocket though, so she never has enough it seems. However, according to her, she NEEDS all those things.

Well, it's been fun. It is time to start our schooling, so I will be offline. Have a great day everyone.

 

[JMD]

There are many, many rich people who know darn well that they got where they are by a COMBINATION of their own hard work and good fortune.

Of course. But what did they get from "society" that they should be forced to pay back?

 

[cindy_belle]

There are many, many rich people who know darn well that they got where they are by a COMBINATION of their own hard work and good fortune.

Yes but without their HARD WORK, the good fortune would not matter. Few, if any, people are wealthy due to luck alone. The hard work puts them into a position where luck can play a small role but luck alone won't replace the hard work. What other people consider as luck is usually someone else's shrewd judgement.

The only time that luck matters is if you are born into wealth or won it through buying a lottery ticket.

 

[PeterPan09]

One of the great strengths of the USA was always its peoples "can do" attitude. Seeing a person who is driving a fine car the anecdotal response was always "I can work hard and get that too"
Elsewhere in the world, especially socialist Europe, the response would be "I want that, I'll take his".
The politics of envy has taken root in the USA over the last few years and I find it terribly sad and disappointing. If we can't view the USA as a meritocratic society any more but, instead, one where entitlement replaces personal responsibility then the process of "trickle up poverty" has truly begun.

ford family

I think that meritocracy attitude ended when people realized that they were working harder and harder and harder-and their income was actually getting smaller over that time. The availability of easy credit over the past few years hid the fact that the real income of working Americans was shrinking. As long as they had the VISA card, they didn't see that their 2% raise wasn't covering the 5% increase in their real cost of living. Now, people are beginning to understand that instead of making more each year for their work, they're actually getting less.

The gap between CEO pay and average employee pay has never been larger, and that clearly has an effect on how the average employee feels. With that big of a gap, it's not a shock that the employee feels no matter how hard he works, he'll never reach those heights.

http://www.aflcio.org/corporatewatch/paywatch/pay/

 

[PeterPan09]

Of course. But what did they get from "society" that they should be forced to pay back?

When you pay your electric bill to receive power, are you paying them back? No, you're paying for a service that you receive. You may not like the price you pay, but you'd certainly like it a lot less if the lights went off.

I don't know a single person who can claim that they have never received anything from the government. We all receive services that we pay for through our taxes and we all directly or indirectly benefit from what we pay for. We may not like the price we pay, and we may not agree with every choice our government makes, but that's why we have elections.

 

[Purseval]

The gap between CEO pay and average employee pay has never been larger, and that clearly has an effect on how the average employee feels. With that big of a gap, it's not a shock that the employee feels no matter how hard he works, he'll never reach those heights.

And yet somehow people manage to rise up through the ranks and achieve exactly those heights the employees you cite feel can't be achieved. One would think, using your logic, that our newly elected POTUS would inspire these people by his example. Instead it appears that even he sees it as a chance for more handouts by increasing taxes on the wealthy to subsidize the poor choices made by mortgage defaulters. Why do you think that is?

 

[PeterPan09]

And yet somehow people manage to rise up through the ranks and achieve exactly those heights the employees you cite feel can't be achieved. One would think, using your logic, that our newly elected POTUS would inspire these people by his example. Instead it appears that even he sees it as a chance for more handouts by increasing taxes on the wealthy to subsidize the poor choices made by mortgage defaulters. Why do you think that is?

If you looked at the chart I posted, you would have seen that the large gap between workers and CEO salaries began to widen in 1990, peaked in 2000 and remains fairly large in 2006. Since our President is 47, it's likely he did most of his climbing prior to 2000.

I believe Obama understands the difference in opportunity now and opportunity even 20 years ago and is attempting to return us to a time where it was a realistic expectation that many people could achieve success climbing the ladder, instead of the few that can do it today.

I don't live in a black and white universe and I don't deal in absolutes. I never said that nobody can achieve great success today. I simply believe and I think there is enough evidence historically to suggest that fewer people can climb those heights than in previous generations.

 

[Galahad]

it's likely he did most of his climbing prior to 2000.

Actually, he did pretty much most of it after that.

I believe Obama understands the difference in opportunity now and opportunity even 20 years ago and is attempting to return us to a time where it was a realistic expectation that many people could achieve success climbing the ladder, instead of the few that can do it today.

I don't live in a black and white universe and I don't deal in absolutes. I never said that nobody can achieve great success today. I simply believe and I think there is enough evidence historically to suggest that fewer people can climb those heights than in previous generations.

Heights? Success is measured by being a CEO, or a Superbowl champ or a President? That there is a disparity is indisputable. That the disparity is preventing anybody from "rising" is illogical.

 

[PeterPan09]

Actually, he did pretty much most of it after that.



Heights? Success is measured by being a CEO, or a Superbowl champ or a President? That there is a disparity is indisputable. That the disparity is preventing anybody from "rising" is illogical.

You're inserting things into my comments that I never said...but I'm getting very used to that.

When I look at where my parents started out back in the late 1950's and where they were income wise when they retired, it's abundantly clear that the kind of percentage income growth that we saw in those days just doesn't exist anymore. And they did it without college degrees! And so did their siblings and friends!

Success to me is a job market that allows Americans to have a job that provides a home for their family, a good education for their children, health benefits so they're not one accident or illness away from bankruptcy-and enough left over every month for a dinner out or even a vacation now and then. I don't think everyone needs to be a CEO, but everyone should have the same opportunity to have those basics. I don't think that opportunity exists in the way it did in my parent's generation.

 

[moburg]

You're inserting things into my comments that I never said...but I'm getting very used to that.

When I look at where my parents started out back in the late 1950's and where they were income wise when they retired, it's abundantly clear that the kind of percentage income growth that we saw in those days just doesn't exist anymore. And they did it without college degrees! And so did their siblings and friends!

Success to me is a job market that allows Americans to have a job that provides a home for their family, a good education for their children, health benefits so they're not one accident or illness away from bankruptcy-and enough left over every month for a dinner out or even a vacation now and then. I don't think everyone needs to be a CEO, but everyone should have the same opportunity to have those basics. I don't think that opportunity exists in the way it did in my parent's generation.

And so how does the gap between CEO pay and employee pay keep people from that opportunity?

 

[JMD]

When you pay your electric bill to receive power, are you paying them back? No, you're paying for a service that you receive. You may not like the price you pay, but you'd certainly like it a lot less if the lights went off.

I don't know a single person who can claim that they have never received anything from the government. We all receive services that we pay for through our taxes and we all directly or indirectly benefit from what we pay for. We may not like the price we pay, and we may not agree with every choice our government makes, but that's why we have elections.

So you're comparing taxing the wealthy to paying your electric bill? Really?