Autism lawsuits to continue on appeal

[Dis703]

My opinion maybe unpopular. The plaintiffs seem to be asking for more that what ADA requires. That is a given, no matter how it is worded. I read their complaints and I read responses that say things like, "with planning," or "utilizing FP+ and DAS one can go on the same ride a couple of times," etc. I come to where is personal responsibility?

I read the responses of the Moderators here and read how they are making the DAS work for them and their situations. Another example is my DD who is neurologically compromised. One of the problems with her challenge is that she has severe visual perceptual problems and visual integration issues. She can "see" but, she can't "see" if that makes sense. Therefore, we have to make sure we sit as close to front and center as possible and try to limit the amount of visual stuff between her and the main attraction. For example, at the movie theater, ballet, ball games, etc. we have to make sure our seats are such that she is no more than a certain number rows back. My DD has never seen Fantasmic! before. We are going to Disneyland at Christmastime. I am having to purchase a dining package at Disneyland just so my DD can "see" Fantasmic! It is taking personal responsibility. We will probably not eat most of what is on the menu, but, for her to enjoy something, that is what I have to do. We have to be willing to sit on the curb and play card games waiting for a parade just so my DD can "see" the parade. That is what we have to do, that is what it takes. The GAC/DAS doesn't help in this kind of situation. It helps her for the wait times. However, we are willing to pay for MaxPass so that we can accommodate her ourselves. She does a great job advocating for herself and along with that advocating for her needs, she has learned what she needs and how to best accommodate her needs. She has also learned, and I previously learned, what situations bothered her and to avoid them - especially when we couldn't accommodate her needs.

I think this goes along with life. For example, a co-worker was talking about Trick-or-Treating last night. His 5 year old son had issues with a particular "scary house." They learned to avoid houses with scary, "fake" zombie like people in front. They didn't expect the houses to take down their decorations because it upset their son.

Therefore, I don't understand asking/suing for excess accommodations. If your child requires more than the usual accommodations or can't reasonably be accommodated then maybe that isn't the right activity for them. Disney isn't a right.

I agree completely. I have a child on the spectrum and kids with ADHD, anxiety and all with severe food allergies. There have always been things that we just don't do because we know that we can't or at least shouldn't. In regards to food allergies we will never be having a birthday party at Chucky Cheese because it's simply not safe for my kids. Not only can they not provide my boys with safe food, the entire environment is unsafe because of the likelihood of cross contamination everywhere. Should I expect for them to go over the top and provide completely off menu food and clean the place top to bottom to remove food proteins from their restaurant to make it safe for my boys? When we go to Disney I research and plan extensively. We bring food, we order groceries and I have backups at the parks every day even when I'm planning on ordering food just in case. Disney is great with allergies in general but it's on me as a parent to make sure we go where they can best accommodate their needs rather than to go somewhere that they don't have what they need and demand they provide it anyhow.

Where does it end? I have horrible motion sickness. Even with pills I can't ride everything. Should I be able to? Should they have ride versions that are tamer so I get to ride everything? I never go to parks like Six Flags because the majority of rides I couldn't handle. There are plenty of activities we've avoided with my boys because of anxiety issues and risky behavior/difficulty with impulse control. Not every place or activity is going to be able to fit everyone's needs. I get the desire to want to do Disney, but it's a huge park with tens of thousands of daily guests to accommodate and what they are asking for is just unreasonable. There wouldn't be a way for them to provide what they are asking without it significantly effecting the way they operate their rides or hindering the experience of other guests. Even then as pointed out with ride break downs, weather closures, etc. it's still impossible to every guarantee a max 10-15 minute wait. And if they allowed that for rides and attractions would they need to start providing the same for buses, restaurant service, etc?

I feel for them and understand wanting to provide this experience for their children, but I think they are being more emotional than realistic about it.

 

[Bianca and Bernard]

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/bus...aVVNO4gB0rRJaa7XBsBKGllT47RSHk3dn6moQUE4rUXK0

After a five-year court battle, a federal lawsuit demanding that people with autism go the front of the line at Disney World rides is going to trial in February, a judge has ruled.

U.S. District Judge Anne Conway set a four-day, non-jury trial in Orlando to start Feb. 18, according to court documents filed last month.
The lawsuit involving a plaintiff identified only as “A.L.” was filed in 2014 after Disney changed its policy to ban people with disabilities from going to the front of the line. Reports had gone viral that some wealthy visitors abused the system by hiring guests with disabilities to accompany them to the front.

Now, Disney allows people with disabilities to reserve a ride in advance, like a FastPass, by using what’s called a Disability Access Service Card.
But advocates argue that under DAS Card, getting a return time is equivalent to a wait, and it becomes a struggle for those with severe autism who don’t understand the concept of time and are prone to meltdowns.

Disney says the new policy is fair. “Disney Parks have an unwavering commitment to providing an inclusive and accessible environment for all our guests,” the company said in a statement last year.

Autism is a developmental disability that affects people in different ways. The disease, which hits one out every 59 children, can affect people’s social skills or their ability or communicate. For A.L., he “was incapable of deviating from consistency, order and routine,” the lawsuit said.

A.L., an Orange County man who was 22 when the lawsuit was first filed, followed a strict routine at Magic Kingdom, traveling “in only one direction, stopping at only the same places, in the same order, every time.”

Last year, Tampa attorney Andy Dogali won a victory when a federal appeals court ruled the Disney lawsuits should be heard at trial.
Dogali said he does not expect to reach a settlement before the February trial after more than five years of legal fighting with Disney.
He currently represents 29 similar plaintiffs in Florida but only the case with A.L. has been set for trial.

Dogali also plans to go to trial March 31 in California in a similar legal fight over accommodations at Disney’s Anaheim parks, he said.

 

[seashoreCM]

So you actually DID get FOTL access but there were others there before you. You did not go through a regular line or get a return time, you went immediately to the loading area.

This is an example of a CM cutting corners, either willfully, or because he was unable to manage numerous persons with disabilities each with a different arrival time like a short order cook would manage the different scrambled eggs and sausages and ham on his grill. (CM's are not expected to have the timing skills of short order cooks which is why they have iPads that give out Disability Access System times.)

But ...

We waited 30-40 minutes at the Splash Mountain wheelchair entrance, which is the exit of the ride, because there were at least 10 families ahead of us in line. A CM explained that only so many with mobility issues could be on the ride at the same time.

A disabled guest should not have to wait out the standby wait time (or DAS wait time) plus wait additional minutes due to the peculiarities and idosyncrasies of loading disabled guests. There should be some formulas in the DAS return time computation to compensate for this..

 

[siren0119]

A disabled guest should not have to wait out the standby wait time (or DAS wait time) plus wait additional minutes due to the peculiarities and idosyncrasies of loading disabled guests. There should be some formulas in the DAS return time computation to compensate for this..

The guest in a wheelchair doesn't get DAS access though as a matter of course (this is obviously not including folks in mobility devices that have other, DAS Eligible disabilities). They proceed to the wheelchair entrance on rides that still need a separate mobility loading procedure, or wait in the regular standby line if the line is wheelchair compatible. The poster you quoted did not mention what the actual wait time of the ride was when they had their experience of extra wait time due to the number of wheelchair families - they also seemed to have been describing an experience PRE-DAS. DAS would not need to calculate any additional compensation of time for wheelchair guests due to the way the system works now.

 

[Boopuff]

I'm fascinated by this. I'm also wondering (if) Disney looses this lawsuit, what will happen as far as DAS goes. And will fraud run rampant once again. (having people ride the rides continually etc). What a nightmare! I don't think there's an easy answer.

 

[katherine52478]

I don’t think they’ll lose. In my opinion, Disney just has to provide a “reasonable accommodation” (language used for employees who have a disability). The DAS serves this purpose. To allow one type of “disability” (their words, I’m not saying Autism is a disability), would open this up to any type of disability and then you have issues with HIPAA because how would you prove your disability?

And most children and many adults also have meltdowns when waiting in line. My husband had one the other day when I was waiting at Guest Relations to ask about a lost hat.

 

[lanejudy]

then you have issues with HIPAA

Just to clarify...HIPAA has absolutely nothing to do with “proving” a disability at a theme park. A theme park is not a “covered entity” under Title II of HIPAA, and any given individual may share his/her private health information with anyone.

I do agree that “proving” a disability would be a challenge ripe for abuse.

 

[katherine52478]

Just to clarify...HIPAA has absolutely nothing to do with “proving” a disability at a theme park. A theme park is not a “covered entity” under Title II of HIPAA, and any given individual may share his/her private health information with anyone.

I do agree that “proving” a disability would be a challenge ripe for abuse.

Thanks for correcting me!

I more meant that if they made every person “prove” they were disabled, then what would be considered “proof”? I know with service animals, there are issues with asking why they are needed and if they are “certified”. I figured Disney might have the same issue with asking people.

 

[mamabunny]

Thanks for correcting me!

I more meant that if they made every person “prove” they were disabled, then what would be considered “proof”? I know with service animals, there are issues with asking why they are needed and if they are “certified”. I figured Disney might have the same issue with asking people.

Given that Disney does NOT currently accept doctor's notes (or any other form of "proof"), but instead focuses on *how* the DAS helps the Guest, I would presume that they will not voluntarily return to any system that requires an (easily spoofed) doctor's note or similar paperwork.

Disney has a solid history of trying to provide equal and accessible accommodations for all. I too will be quite surprised if they do not prevail here. The accommodation being requested - while understandable - may be considered a "want" and not a "need". (as in, mamabunny NEEDS a mobility device because she can't walk, but Jane Doe WANTS front of the line access at every ride because it's hard for her to wait.)

At WDW, *everyone* has to wait - and often under (relatively) the same circumstances; lines, heat, and time, all fairly consistent. I truly have sympathy for people who find waiting in line (without need of a mobility device) to be uncomfortable, but no one *likes* it. I have yet to hear anyone say "Oh goody! We get to *line up* for 45 minutes to ride for 5 minutes! Yay!"

And as has been discussed here in this forum before, we all have to wait in real life too. While you can - to some extent, given enough money, resources and/or sheer determination (or some combo of the three) reduce the amount of time you or your loved one(s) have to spend in lines out in the real world, you can't eliminate waiting entirely. In fact, if you went to the doctor's office to get the note that says you can't wait at WDW... I bet you would have to *wait* to see the doctor to get the note...

 

[DisneyOma]

Just to clarify...HIPAA has absolutely nothing to do with “proving” a disability at a theme park. A theme park is not a “covered entity” under Title II of HIPAA, and any given individual may share his/her private health information with anyone.

I do agree that “proving” a disability would be a challenge ripe for abuse.

I took the PP's post to mean that real proof would need to be shown to get the instant access. It's a service not offered to the general guest, so there's that need for legitimate proof. Of course then you get the egotistical doctor who will be glad to give everyone the note.

Given that Disney does NOT currently accept doctor's notes (or any other form of "proof"), but instead focuses on *how* the DAS helps the Guest, I would presume that they will not voluntarily return to any system that requires an (easily spoofed) doctor's note or similar paperwork.

Voluntarily, no. But if forced, I would hope that it would require more than an easily faked or easily given doctor's note. Record of a full eval, with the results, would serve, but what CM would be able to decipher that? Hmm, actually, I know a lot of teachers and school staff that would be able to, and they love Disney, as do I.

 

[mamabunny]

I took the PP's post to mean that real proof would need to be shown to get the instant access. It's a service not offered to the general guest, so there's that need for legitimate proof. Of course then you get the egotistical doctor who will be glad to give everyone the note.



Voluntarily, no. But if forced, I would hope that it would require more than an easily faked or easily given doctor's note. Record of a full eval, with the results, would serve, but what CM would be able to decipher that? Hmm, actually, I know a lot of teachers and school staff that would be able to, and they love Disney, as do I.

I still want to believe that Disney (along with it's Guests) won't be forced back down the path of (potentially) faked notes/records/diagnoses. The way it is handled now is (in my opinion) the most fair and reasonable way to sort out who needs/gets a DAS.

Regardless of intent, being required to "prove" that you need a DAS/FOL access opens Disney to the responsibility of being judge, jury and arbiter when deciding who qualifies, and what conditions would be considered eligible. As soon as word got out that anyone who is diagnosed with X, Y or Z got automatic FOL access, the number of people lined up clutching faintly suspicious medical paperwork would soar, and the DAS would be rendered effectively moot - and we would have the GAC scenario all over again.

 

[StitchesGr8Fan]

The issue that I think gets lost when people argue the DAS issue is that attractions aren’t an infinite resource. There is a finite amount of people that can experience an attraction in a day. So when a DAS holder and their traveling party experience an attraction, that means the same number of people can’t experience the attraction.

So when people say that people should be compassionate, letting a DAS holder and their party go to the front of the line because it is only adding a few minutes to their wait, they aren’t looking at the big picture:

It’s not just one DAS holder and their party, it’s hundreds, maybe even a couple thousand in a park every day. Giving that many people front of the line access (if they ever go that route again) means that the same number of non-DAS holding parties won’t get to experience that attraction. There is a real impact to operations that the people suing Disney either refuse to see or don’t care about because they think Disney owes them something.

 

[marcyleecorgan]

given how long this lawsuit has gone on, the "young man" in question has certainly proved his capacity to wait, given that he hasn't been given Front of the Line access for many years (or returned to DL as I understand)... i cannot possibly agree more with @mamabunny on this one... NONE of us want to wait in line, but Disney Parks continue to be more and more popular, so there's more and more people. so a visitor needs to take care of their own needs - if they absolutely cannot, then Disney is no longer the place it was for them, and they need to choose a different place.

I want to be able to change a LOT of policies in life that have changed over time - TSA for one! room security checks! the numerous policies regarding CC's and purchasing Gift cards! Being allowed to say, "Wow that was blown out of proportion" or "Let's just hand-bomb our luggage" at the airport without security descending down upon me... the fact that everyone and their dog has a cell phone and is recording everyone else so that we have no freedom of expression without Immediate and Instant Judgement from the entire internet-using world!

 

[OurBigTrip]

The issue that I think gets lost when people argue the DAS issue is that attractions aren’t an infinite resource. There is a finite amount of people that can experience an attraction in a day. So when a DAS holder and their traveling party experience an attraction, that means the same number of people can’t experience the attraction.

So when people say that people should be compassionate, letting a DAS holder and their party go to the front of the line because it is only adding a few minutes to their wait, they aren’t looking at the big picture:

It’s not just one DAS holder and their party, it’s hundreds, maybe even a couple thousand in a park every day. Giving that many people front of the line access (if they ever go that route again) means that the same number of non-DAS holding parties won’t get to experience that attraction. There is a real impact to operations that the people suing Disney either refuse to see or don’t care about because they think Disney owes them something.

Couldn't agree more.

Another issue is that the GAC wasn't discontinued only because of abuse, but because of overuse, and if Disney loses this case, the same could happen to the DAS. If Disney is forced to have another tier of accommodation, more along the lines of the GAC, many, if not most guests who now use the DAS with no problem at all will want that extra level of accommodation whether they really need it or not.

 

[Boopuff]

The one sticking point I have with the lawsuit the the people who think they're "entitled" to ride a ride over, and over getting off and right back on. Now how in hades is that fair to anyone? Seriously, be reasonable!

 

[SueM in MN]

Couldn't agree more.

Another issue is that the GAC wasn't discontinued only because of abuse, but because of overuse, and if Disney loses this case, the same could happen to the DAS. If Disney is forced to have another tier of accommodation, more along the lines of the GAC, many, if not most guests who now use the DAS with no problem at all will want that extra level of accommodation whether they really need it or not.

the biggest ’tipping point’ in Disney changing their system was overuse, which was very apparent when Disneyland’s Radiator Springs Racers opened. They could not give out the number of Fastpasses expected because so many ‘Fastpass slots’ were being used by people using GAC, the old Guest Assistance Card program.
GAC used a selection of stamps that allowed for various accommodations. One stamp was a green arrow, which meant ’expedite this person’s entry into attractions’. It was meant for guests on Wish trips, but since the stamp was available at Guest Relations, it was given out to other people (for the record, we used GAC for our daughter, but did NOT ever have that stamp).
Disney changed the whole system for accommodating children on Wish trips; they now have a special lanyard which is issued thru their authorized Wish granting organization (not all wish granting organizations are authorized)

I had read websites (many for parents of autistic children) where people were trading hints and suggesting telling Guest Relations you needed ‘the green arrow stamp’. They talked about how they rode over and over or were able to do all the headliners in a very short time without waiting on a busy day. So, that’s the overuse part.

Then, there was the abuse part - one pregnant woman‘s blog about where she talked about GAC as a ‘pregnancy perk’ and posted a picture of her GAC card with that stamp. The rest of her blog talked about her trips around the world and gym routine while she was pregnant.
I also saw blogs where parents gave the hint to get GAC, even though they posted their child was not disabled. One even posted that her doctor wrote her a note each year because ‘going to WDW with 3 children IS a disability. People with that many kids shouldn’t have to wait.’

 

[marcyleecorgan]

The one sticking point I have with the lawsuit the the people who think they're "entitled" to ride a ride over, and over getting off and right back on. Now how in hades is that fair to anyone? Seriously, be reasonable!

Yeah our local theme park has wristbands for their guests with disabilities: they get to board first and they get one repeat ride without unloading but after that, it's the regular line for them. If they wait in line again, they can use the wristband again AFTER their "regular" turn but there's no "front of the line" all the time. Also the park has 1 day a month where they open 2 hours early so these guests can have priority access for those hours.
Not sure how Disney could implement this type of plan, but considering our local park's goal is to keep wait times under 30 min for EVERYONE, I dont think it could be replicated at that scale. Also you can't get a wristband unless you register on a special list (these groups are usually participating with a school or group home). So you can't just demand what you from the staff running the lines: they radio Guest Services to come & speak with you. I have seen people be turned down for wristbands and I have seen people turned down for priority boarding when it is clear it's being overused: like a guest riding the same ride 4x. They are told to enjoy another ride for at least an hour and then come back.

 

[paisleys]

As a Floridian, I knew many people who abused the GAC--including family. My mother was laughing one day telling me how she and her friends rode Toy Story many times in a row--I asked how? I had young children and couldn't even get near it once. Ahh.. GAC. It was great when the switchover happened--she went off on them when they wouldn't give her party a DAS "Yes, my friend plays golf but still has a bad back!" I chaperoned a field trip where one of my (otherwise sweet) charges told me her parents would have the kids pretend they were (the ugly "R" word) to get the pass. Other people I know will go on and on about how their kids have 'issues' but these issues only seem to appear when it is convenient to get special perks like at WDW. It made me sick to think that profoundly disabled and wish kids were waiting behind these type of scammers.

 

[StarGirl11]

the biggest ’tipping point’ in Disney changing their system was overuse, which was very apparent when Disneyland’s Radiator Springs Racers opened. They could not give out the number of Fastpasses expected because so many ‘Fastpass slots’ were being used by people using GAC, the old Guest Assistance Card program.
GAC used a selection of stamps that allowed for various accommodations. One stamp was a green arrow, which meant ’expedite this person’s entry into attractions’. It was meant for guests on Wish trips, but since the stamp was available at Guest Relations, it was given out to other people (for the record, we used GAC for our daughter, but did NOT ever have that stamp).
Disney changed the whole system for accommodating children on Wish trips; they now have a special lanyard which is issued thru their authorized Wish granting organization (not all wish granting organizations are authorized)

I had read websites (many for parents of autistic children) where people were trading hints and suggesting telling Guest Relations you needed ‘the green arrow stamp’. They talked about how they rode over and over or were able to do all the headliners in a very short time without waiting on a busy day. So, that’s the overuse part.

Then, there was the abuse part - one pregnant woman‘s blog about where she talked about GAC as a ‘pregnancy perk’ and posted a picture of her GAC card with that stamp. The rest of her blog talked about her trips around the world and gym routine while she was pregnant.
I also saw blogs where parents gave the hint to get GAC, even though they posted their child was not disabled. One even posted that her doctor wrote her a note each year because ‘going to WDW with 3 children IS a disability. People with that many kids shouldn’t have to wait.’

I actually know a pair who were issued the green arrow. I never quite understood what about their disabilities (and yes they are both disabled) qualified them for the green arrow but I do remember them having it. Part of me wonders if its a matter of 'if your issue was severe enough' you got bumped up to the green arrow. But that's my speculation based on knowing they both had some issues that meant they needed to stay out of the general line. I don't want to go into details for their sake but at least with them it did feel like it was somewhat warranted. Especially after knowing them for as long as I have now (8 years come January).

At least with them, they weren't out to scam the system. They followed the rules, never brought up going for a second round usually unless there was a no wait for the disabled ride vehicles which did happen a couple of times. But for them, it was an unexpected perk of hitting a ride at the right time (usuall y TSM)and not something they actively sought out.

I can't say all people who got the green arrow that weren't wish trippers weren't out to gain the system. But there are some out there where the arrow was issued legitametly.

I do wonder where the line between the arrow and the other stamps was. Since it did exist, though god knows where you crossed from one territory into the other.

 

[SueM in MN]

I actually know a pair who were issued the green arrow. I never quite understood what about their disabilities (and yes they are both disabled) qualified them for the green arrow but I do remember them having it. Part of me wonders if its a matter of 'if your issue was severe enough' you got bumped up to the green arrow. But that's my speculation based on knowing they both had some issues that meant they needed to stay out of the general line. I don't want to go into details for their sake but at least with them it did feel like it was somewhat warranted. Especially after knowing them for as long as I have now (8 years come January).

At least with them, they weren't out to scam the system. They followed the rules, never brought up going for a second round usually unless there was a no wait for the disabled ride vehicles which did happen a couple of times. But for them, it was an unexpected perk of hitting a ride at the right time (usuall y TSM)and not something they actively sought out.

I can't say all people who got the green arrow that weren't wish trippers weren't out to gain the system. But there are some out there where the arrow was issued legitametly.

I do wonder where the line between the arrow and the other stamps was. Since it did exist, though god knows where you crossed from one territory into the other.

from what I know from CMs who worked in Guest Relations when the GAC (Guest Assistance Card) system was in place, the green arrow was really meant to only be used for kids on Wish trips.
But, because the stamp was at Guest Relations, it ended up getting used for more than that. Some was probably a CM trying to give some pixie dust to an individual family with high needs or on a special trip and some was probably the result of intimidation/demand by guests.
I don’t think the CMs who gave out that stamp realized the impact - instead of a one time pixie dust, returning guests brought their GAC card back and got it reissued with the same stamp. Many of those guests just thought that was what the program was supposed to be and used it responsibly. But, there were others who treated it like a Golden ticket they could use to go on high wait attractions over and over without waiting.

The internet also made a big difference; GAC went from something people found out about at the parks to many internet entries. Along with responsible websites, there were also places on the internet where people posted ‘scripts’ to get the green arrow stamp and just to intimidate CMs to get it. .
It went from rare, which had little impact on how attractions functioned, to common,