Aulani and "TRANSIENT ACCOMMODATIONS TAX"...

[3happydancers]

I am not knowledgeable in this area, so can someone please explain who a "Plan Manager" is.

Thanks.

 

[pilferk]

I am not knowledgeable in this area, so can someone please explain who a "Plan Manager" is.

Thanks.

The plan manager would be, basically, the administrator of the timeshare facility/plan. In this case, it would be the DVC Association aka Disney (though they do, really, represent the ownership). The same entity responsible for paying the bills, now, at all the other DVC resorts.

 

[tjkraz]

As others have indicated, the application of the tax was dictated by the state of Hawaii and DVC has to comply. Legally they cannot roll it up in member dues, nor can they otherwise charge the owner of the points.

It doesn't matter Aulani members have ownership in the building. The tax is worded in such a way as to apply to the room occupant.

A couple of years ago the state of Florida dabbled with the idea of charging an additional occupancy tax to timeshare owners. But earlier this year the state senate approved a measure which relieved timeshare owners of any further tax burdens. That could easily change in the future. And if FL dictates that some sort of occupancy tax should be added on top of the property taxes we already pay, DVC will be forced to charge FL DVC owners in whatever manner is mandated.

If a DVC Guide stated that owners are exempt from FL, SC and CA occupancy taxes, that information is accurate as of today. But HI is a different market and the Transient Accommodations Tax has been disclosed from the start.

 

[tjkraz]

Note that in all examples, the wording indicates that ULTIMATELY the plan manager is responsible/liable for the tax, NOT the individual using the accommodations. One would expect that the plan manager would collect the fees from the individual using the premises, but I don't see anything in the wording in Chuck's link that would say the "tenant" HAS to be the one paying.

I haven't read all of the document you reference and I'm certainly in no position to argue from a legal standpoint. But here is another document published by the Hawaii Department of Taxation:

http://www.state.hi.us/tax/taxfacts/tf98-04.pdf

While it does acknowledge the plan manager's responsibility to collect and remit the tax, there are also points indicating that owners do not have to pay the tax for days (in this case, points) they did not use and that a third party would be charged if the time was given away.

There are also some interesting comments in there about the responsibilities of a renter who sells the accommodation to a third party.

Even if there is some leeway to include the tax in member dues, banking and borrowing of points could be one reason why they have chosen not to do so. If I own 200 points and use 400 in 2011, Hawaii would seem to be entitled to the tax on 400 points. But if DVC is billing with dues, HI will only receive the tax on the 200 points for that year.

 

[CrazyDuck]

Can anyone provide a counterpoint? Am I missing something?

Here is the following Paragraph... I will add "()" to clarify the parties:

In 2001, A (Aulani Owner) rents the time share unit during the two weeks in August to Mr. Tourist (eg. BCV Owner) for a
consideration. In 2001, the time share unit is being furnished as a transient accommodation and
the plan manager (DVD) is liable for the transient accommodations tax for the two weeks under section
237D-2(d), HRS. A (Aulani Owner) is not liable for the transient accommodations tax.

So why should they "roll-up" the Transient Accommodation Tax into the Aulani Owners' Dues if they are not always liable for that tax? Do you like paying taxes that you don't owe? If so I'll gladly send you my $6,000 bil from Uncle Sam!

 

[Maistre Gracey]

So why should they "roll-up" the Transient Accommodation Tax into the Aulani Owners' Dues if they are not always liable for that tax? Do you like paying taxes that you don't owe? If so I'll gladly send you my $6,000 bil from Uncle Sam!

Not always being liable for the tax under the state law is not really relevant IMO.
No, I don't like paying taxes that I don't owe (heck, I don't like paying taxes I DO owe), but again- I pay property taxes at AKV and an Aulani owner can stay there because I traded out my time. That's the way it goes..

A timeshare, and all associated expenses, should be paid by the owner. If they wish to trade, it should be a free & clear week for another free & clear week.
If they own the week it seems to me they should pay the occupancy tax, and all fees and taxes on the resort they trade into should be paid by the owner of that resort.

I'm not a legal expert by any stretch, so I'm not going to get in the middle of the wording of the Hawaiian law.
That said, it seems logical from my point of view that taxes should be paid by the owner.

MG

 

[CrazyDuck]

I pay property taxes at AKV and an Aulani owner can stay there because I traded out my time.

And the Aulani Owners will pay property taxes for Aulani just as you do AKV... But the TAT is a tax to which there is no equivalent in the other DVC properties.

If paying at check out is such a problem, maybe you can petition DVD to collect the TAT upon making the reservation... Not unlike how they collect $95 to book RCI!

 

[Maistre Gracey]

And the Aulani Owners will pay property taxes for Aulani just as you do AKV... But the TAT is a tax to which there is no equivalent in the other DVC properties.

If paying at check out is such a problem, maybe you can petition DVD to collect the TAT upon making the reservation... Not unlike how they collect $95 to book RCI!

And as a PP mentioned, VGC has an occupancy tax rolled into the annual fees (I haven't looked to see it for myself), which IMO is as it should be.

Anyway, I'm sure the DVC folks looked at this and for whatever reason opted to go this route. So be it.
That said, I still don't think it *should* be that way..

MG

 

[DisWitt]

I happen to know one of the Disney lawyers. The guy is tops in the field (the reason why you don't hear about Disney lawsuits every day), paid a ton of $, and fights like a gila monster (look it up). If there was an easier way of taking care of TAT -- and rolling it into MF's would be far easier way than collecting it from every guest -- they would be doing that!

Apart from the blame game, the TAT is fully disclosed everywhere: the POS, the point chart, even the pre-sale info. If you're coming from another timeshare or resort and have a problem with the tax, it's our (Aulani owners') loss since we won't be able to trade with you and ultimately will be on our own untradable island (pun intended). Keep in mind that TAT has to be charged on EVERY timeshare, hotel, and B&B in the state of Hawaii. If you don't like it, vote with your feet and go elsewhere... but there doesn't seem to be a major shortage of tourists going to Hawaii. Nobody is forcing you to go to Hawaii and pay the TAT.

 

[adminjedi]

I happen to know one of the Disney lawyers. The guy is tops in the field (the reason why you don't hear about Disney lawsuits every day), paid a ton of $, and fights like a gila monster (look it up). If there was an easier way of taking care of TAT -- and rolling it into MF's would be far easier way than collecting it from every guest -- they would be doing that!

Apart from the blame game, the TAT is fully disclosed everywhere: the POS, the point chart, even the pre-sale info. If you're coming from another timeshare or resort and have a problem with the tax, it's our (Aulani owners') loss since we won't be able to trade with you and ultimately will be on our own untradable island (pun intended). Keep in mind that TAT has to be charged on EVERY timeshare, hotel, and B&B in the state of Hawaii. If you don't like it, vote with your feet and go elsewhere... but there doesn't seem to be a major shortage of tourists going to Hawaii. Nobody is forcing you to go to Hawaii and pay the TAT.

can I just say "amen" neighbor!

 

[Greysword]

I would like to make a couple of points and ask a question.

First, Florida does have these taxes for hotels, rental cars, and other tourist related services. However, owning DVC precludes the charging of these hotel fees. However, I wonder if there is a special property tax to make up for the loss of such fees by timeshare users paid by the owners.

Second, it seems that a hotel in Hawai'i would be allowed to pay these transient fees for a client if they choose to, and it is unlikely the State would initiate a complaint as long as the taxes were paid in a timely manner (they get their money regardless who pays).

Third is a question:

If the fees can be paid annually, it is possible for DVC to accrue the taxes on their books and collect the total in arrears in the next year by rolling the total into the annual dues without a loss. That said, do you think this is not being done due to the split nature of the resort (some rooms are traditional timeshares) more than it isn't feasable from an accounting standpoint?

I would guess the traditional timeshare people would refuse to pay the charges, like their contemporaries at othr timeshares, while if it was all DVC, the charges would be rolled into the following yera's annual dues.

Thoughts?

 

[sweetdana]

I can understand both sides..

AND ...
With the point charts the way they are and fees due anyway. Seems if Hawaii was my goal.. I think I'd rent my points at WDW and pay cash some other hotel in HA as an alternative. .. Assuming a per point total value at 10$ a point.. there is no way I wouldn't find cheaper at the Ritz, or the Marriot, both which I love. I would have a chance at an upgrade, and mouse keeping.

 

[CrazyDuck]

I can understand both sides..

AND ...
With the point charts the way they are and fees due anyway. Seems if Hawaii was my goal.. I think I'd rent my points at WDW and pay cash some other hotel in HA as an alternative. .. Assuming a per point total value at 10$ a point.. there is no way I wouldn't find cheaper at the Ritz, or the Marriot, both which I love. I would have a chance at an upgrade, and mouse keeping.

The cheapest you can stay at Aulani is for 18 points, The most expensive (ocean view studio/christmas) is 31 points... At $10/point that would net you $310... You are going to get a room at the Ritz or Marriott for under $180-$310/night? Good luck with that!

 

[TagsMissy]

I happen to know one of the Disney lawyers. The guy is tops in the field (the reason why you don't hear about Disney lawsuits every day), paid a ton of $, and fights like a gila monster (look it up). If there was an easier way of taking care of TAT -- and rolling it into MF's would be far easier way than collecting it from every guest -- they would be doing that!

Apart from the blame game, the TAT is fully disclosed everywhere: the POS, the point chart, even the pre-sale info. If you're coming from another timeshare or resort and have a problem with the tax, it's our (Aulani owners') loss since we won't be able to trade with you and ultimately will be on our own untradable island (pun intended). Keep in mind that TAT has to be charged on EVERY timeshare, hotel, and B&B in the state of Hawaii. If you don't like it, vote with your feet and go elsewhere... but there doesn't seem to be a major shortage of tourists going to Hawaii. Nobody is forcing you to go to Hawaii and pay the TAT.

 

[Chuck S]

I would like to make a couple of points and ask a question.

First, Florida does have these taxes for hotels, rental cars, and other tourist related services. However, owning DVC precludes the charging of these hotel fees. However, I wonder if there is a special property tax to make up for the loss of such fees by timeshare users paid by the owners.

Second, it seems that a hotel in Hawai'i would be allowed to pay these transient fees for a client if they choose to, and it is unlikely the State would initiate a complaint as long as the taxes were paid in a timely manner (they get their money regardless who pays).

Third is a question:

If the fees can be paid annually, it is possible for DVC to accrue the taxes on their books and collect the total in arrears in the next year by rolling the total into the annual dues without a loss. That said, do you think this is not being done due to the split nature of the resort (some rooms are traditional timeshares) more than it isn't feasable from an accounting standpoint?

I would guess the traditional timeshare people would refuse to pay the charges, like their contemporaries at othr timeshares, while if it was all DVC, the charges would be rolled into the following yera's annual dues.

Thoughts?

I'm sure a hotel, if it chose to pay the tax, could do so from their own profit, and roll the cost into a higher cost per night for cash guests. And if the tax were to increase, the room rate could increase. DVC doesn't exactly have that luxury.

If the tax rate increased and the tax was included in dues, dues would increase. But, remember that legally, the DVC dues have to reflect actual resort operating expenses. And under Hawaii law, the tax is tied to the actual, physical use of the resort. If an Aulani owner never uses their points there, they are not physically using the resort, and no taxes would be due from the owner to the state. But owners that trade in, either from other DVCs or through RCI are physically using the resort, that is why the tax is charged to the room user. I doubt it would be legal to roll those fees into the annual dues for Aulani. The Aulani owners could probably challenge it in court if they did.

 

[sweetdana]

https://www.marriott.com/reservation/rateListMenu.mi

Just went to web site. I know nothing about this hotel or about HA.. and it is only 249$ a night for an ocean view room with a balcony.. (with a AAA discount, (or possibly a special) or a marri. rewards card, this will end up either saving 10-20% or get you a few free nights with a few nights.

So .. yes, you can get a room under 300$ a night there. This was with 2 mins and a web browser.. Maybe 4 hours worth of looking might find better, maybe not.. If HA was my goal, I would possibly look at not using points.

 

[CrazyDuck]

https://www.marriott.com/reservation/rateListMenu.mi

Just went to web site. I know nothing about this hotel or about HA.. and it is only 249$ a night for an ocean view room with a balcony.. (with a AAA discount, (or possibly a special) or a marri. rewards card, this will end up either saving 10-20% or get you a few free nights with a few nights.

So .. yes, you can get a room under 300$ a night there. This was with 2 mins and a web browser.. Maybe 4 hours worth of looking might find better, maybe not.. If HA was my goal, I would possibly look at not using points.

Yea I don't know what hotel you were looking at, but if you want to compare Apples to Apples try pricing something at the "JW Marriott Ihilani Ko Olina Resort & Spa" since it is right next door to Aulani. I can get a better rate at All Star Movies but it is not the same as AKV! So lets compare a couple different seasons:

Adventrue Season (Studio) 2nd week in Jan:
Aulani - Standard View 18pts ($180) / Ocean View 25pts ($250)
Ihilani - Standard View $286 / Ocean View $328
(This is with the Marriott Rewards Discount)

Premiere Season (Studio) Last week in Dec:
Aulani - Standard View 24pts ($240) / Ocean View 31pts ($310)
Ihilani - Standard View $369 / Ocean View $419
(No Marriott Rewards Price Available but if it were it would probably be $20-$40 off)

Oh and you mentiones the Ritz. There is only 1... in Maui... Start at $350 and go up from there! You can find "Value" resorts in hawaii (All-Star'esque) for under $200, but you wont be happy there! Even if you can get $10/point you will not find a better deal than Aulani's point schedule... or an RCI trade for that matter!

ETA... BTW the abbreviation for Hawaii is HI not HA.

 

[jmatias]

Thanks for the comparison CrazyDuck!

And I would still say that comparing Aulani with Ihilani is still like comparing an apple to an orange.

Sure Ihilani is a JW and a beautiful hotel. But nothing on Oahu ( and maybe all the other island resorts ) will compare to the amenities of Aulani, especially the pool/lazy river amenities. And I'm sure the theme-ing of Aulani will blow us away.

Can't wait to stay at Aulani!

Aloha,
Jen

Yea I don't know what hotel you were looking at, but if you want to compare Apples to Apples try pricing something at the "JW Marriott Ihilani Ko Olina Resort & Spa" since it is right next door to Aulani. I can get a better rate at All Star Movies but it is not the same as AKV! So lets compare a couple different seasons:

Adventrue Season (Studio) 2nd week in Jan:
Aulani - Standard View 18pts ($180) / Ocean View 25pts ($250)
Ihilani - Standard View $286 / Ocean View $328
(This is with the Marriott Rewards Discount)

Premiere Season (Studio) Last week in Dec:
Aulani - Standard View 24pts ($240) / Ocean View 31pts ($310)
Ihilani - Standard View $369 / Ocean View $419
(No Marriott Rewards Price Available but if it were it would probably be $20-$40 off)

Oh and you mentiones the Ritz. There is only 1... in Maui... Start at $350 and go up from there! You can find "Value" resorts in hawaii (All-Star'esque) for under $200, but you wont be happy there! Even if you can get $10/point you will not find a better deal than Aulani's point schedule... or an RCI trade for that matter!

ETA... BTW the abbreviation for Hawaii is HI not HA.

 

[tjkraz]

In most ways it's no different than comparing WDW or DL accommodations to those nearby. You can get a comparable hotel room a block away from Disneyland for half of what Disney charges. And you can get an Orlando hotel rooms for a fraction of Disney prices even if you have to pay for your own airport transportation rather than DME, and haul your own packages home from the park gift shops.

No, Aulani doesn't have an adjacent theme park. But it will have a plethora of "Disney" themed activities and features--some accessible only by resort guests.

Sure you can go to the trouble of renting points, paying taxes on the rental income and booking a nearby hotel for less money. But do you really want to travel 3000-4000 miles only to be an outsider looking in? Just to save a couple hundred dollars?

If you want the immersive experience, you pay the premium for Aulani.

 

[JimC]

Not always being liable for the tax under the state law is not really relevant IMO.
No, I don't like paying taxes that I don't owe (heck, I don't like paying taxes I DO owe), but again- I pay property taxes at AKV and an Aulani owner can stay there because I traded out my time. That's the way it goes..

A timeshare, and all associated expenses, should be paid by the owner. If they wish to trade, it should be a free & clear week for another free & clear week.
If they own the week it seems to me they should pay the occupancy tax, and all fees and taxes on the resort they trade into should be paid by the owner of that resort.

I'm not a legal expert by any stretch, so I'm not going to get in the middle of the wording of the Hawaiian law.
That said, it seems logical from my point of view that taxes should be paid by the owner.

MG

MG. I believe the difference is that property taxes are assessed to owners of property subject to the tax. The Hawaii transient tax is levied against occupants of timeshares, much like a sales/hotel tax is levied against the user of a hotel room. Sales and hotel taxes are not applicable to timeshares. The transient tax is a special purpose tax aimed at recapturing the hotel taxes lost on timeshares.