Athiests fight public display of "giving" tree

[JoeThaNo1Stunna]

The fact that they call it a giving tree instead of a Christmas tree is a sack of heehaw but what these people are trying to accomplish is pathetic:

BELLEVUE - You can't miss the Christmas tree in Bellevue City Hall.

"It's decorated with gold balls and gold ribbon," described a city worker.

They don't actually call it a Christmas tree.

"We call it the giving tree because it's meant as a season of giving and that's what it's for," explained Patrice Cole, who just made a donation.

The tree is adorned with requests for gifts from needy families.

It generates nearly $25,000 dollars worth of donations.

So, you might be surprised that Sidney Stock would look at this tree and say, "I resent it."

Sidney and Jennifer Stock are atheists.

They asked the city council to remove the tree because it represents Christmas which is a Christian holiday.

Stock says city hall should "Act as a place where everybody feels welcome. It is impossible for everybody's religious belief to be displayed and non-religious belief to be displayed, so therefore, no religious beliefs be displayed."

The courts already sided with the city on this one.

Barbara Ramey, spokesperson for the city explained. "Courts have ruled that Christmas trees are actually a secular symbol so given that, we are within the court precedents set on this issue," says Ramey.

The Stocks complained after a city worker told them the tree makes him feel out of place, and if he says so, he fears for his job.

The couple's already gotten hate filled phone calls, but they speak out anyway, because they believe many people feel the way they do but stay silent.

"There are a lot of people who've come to this country, maybe have been here for years, who don't feel freedom to say anything," says Jennifer Stock. "So we feel we're saying it for those people. Not just for ourselves."

The city doesn't plan to take the tree down and expects it will go up again next year.

They can also expect to hear from the Stocks.

Sidney Stock points out that to bring about change, you have to stir the pot.

"I try and be aware of injustice and inequality when it effects anybody or everybody," he says. "Certainly this is something that has been a problem for as long as I can remember."

 

[POOH&PIGLET]

The courts already sided with the city on this one.

Thank god.

 

[septbride2002]

This one is stretching a bit. Especially since the pine tree or evergreen tree really was used in pagan religions as a sign of fertility and rebirth. Therefore techincally not the Christmas Tree is actually a pagan symbol and not a Christian symbol.

BUT ANYWAY - both sides have a point. If it is going to be a 'giving' tree then they should take off the traditional holiday ornaments and only have the request for the needy families on the tree. However I can see City Hall wanting to make it pleasing to the eye.

~Amanda

 

[chrissyk]

For goodness sakes', that's ridiculous. I'm not Christian by any stretch of the imagination, and I still like to see nice holiday decorations. I like decorated trees, Menorahs (sp?), etc. These athiests are going too far!

 

[septbride2002]

HISTORY CHANNEL

How it All Got Started
Long before the advent of Christianity, plants and trees that remained green all year had a special meaning for people in the winter. Just as people today decorate their homes during the festive season with pine, spruce, and fir trees, ancient peoples hung evergreen boughs over their doors and windows. In many countries it was believed that evergreens would keep away witches, ghosts, evil spirits, and illness.

In the Northern hemisphere, the shortest day and longest night of the year falls on December 21 or December 22 and is called the winter solstice. Many ancient people believed that the sun was a god and that winter came every year because the sun god had become sick and weak. They celebrated the solstice because it meant that at last the sun god would begin to get well. Evergreen boughs reminded them of all the green plants that would grow again when the sun god was strong and summer would return.

The ancient Egyptians worshipped a god called Ra, who had the head of a hawk and wore the sun as a blazing disk in his crown. At the solstice, when Ra began to recover from the illness, the Egyptians filled their homes with green palm rushes which symbolized for them the triumph of life over death.

Early Romans marked the solstice with a feast called the Saturnalia in honor of Saturn, the god of agriculture. The Romans knew that the solstice meant that soon farms and orchards would be green and fruitful. To mark the occasion, they decorated their homes and temples with evergreen boughs.


In Northern Europe the mysterious Druids, the priests of the ancient Celts, also decorated their temples with evergreen boughs as a symbol of everlasting life. The fierce Vikings in Scandinavia thought that evergreens were the special plant of the sun god, Balder.

Germany is credited with starting the Christmas tree tradition as we now know it in the 16th century when devout Christians brought decorated trees into their homes. Some built Christmas pyramids of wood and decorated them with evergreens and candles if wood was scarce. It is a widely held belief that Martin Luther, the 16th-century Protestant reformer, first added lighted candles to a tree. Walking toward his home one winter evening, composing a sermon, he was awed by the brilliance of stars twinkling amidst evergreens. To recapture the scene for his family, he erected a tree in the main room and wired its branches with lighted candles.

Most 19th-century Americans found Christmas trees an oddity. The first record of one being on display was in the 1830s by the German settlers of Pennsylvania, although trees had been a tradition in many German homes much earlier. The Pennsylvania German settlements had community trees as early as 1747. But, as late as the 1840s Christmas trees were seen as pagan symbols and not accepted by most Americans.

It is not surprising that, like many other festive Christmas customs, the tree was adopted so late in America. To the New England Puritans, Christmas was sacred. The pilgrims's second governor, William Bradford, wrote that he tried hard to stamp out "pagan mockery" of the observance, penalizing any frivolity. The influential Oliver Cromwell preached against "the heathen traditions" of Christmas carols, decorated trees, and any joyful expression that desecrated "that sacred event." In 1659, the General Court of Massachusetts enacted a law making any observance of December 25 (other than a church service) a penal offense; people were fined for hanging decorations. That stern solemnity continued until the 19th century, when the influx of German and Irish immigrants undermined the Puritan legacy.

In 1846, the popular royals, Queen Victoria and her German Prince, Albert, were sketched in the Illustrated London News standing with their children around a Christmas tree. Unlike the previous royal family, Victoria was very popular with her subjects, and what was done at court immediately became fashionable—not only in Britain, but with fashion-conscious East Coast American Society. The Christmas tree had arrived.

By the 1890s Christmas ornaments were arriving from Germany and Christmas tree popularity was on the rise around the U.S. It was noted that Europeans used small trees about four feet in height, while Americans liked their Christmas trees to reach from floor to ceiling.

The early 20th century saw Americans decorating their trees mainly with homemade ornaments, while the German-American sect continued to use apples, nuts, and marzipan cookies. Popcorn joined in after being dyed bright colors and interlaced with berries and nuts. Electricity brought about Christmas lights, making it possible for Christmas trees to glow for days on end. With this, Christmas trees began to appear in town squares across the country and having a Christmas tree in the home became an American tradition.

 

[4greatboys]

This kind of crap is getting out of hand. People need to get a grip.

 

[binny]

you know, extremists on both sides gives everyone a bad name!


This is one example of an extremist pushing the limits just because they can.

 

[tkyes]

The tree is helping people, no matter what religion you believe or don't believe in they surely can't be against helping people can they?

If I went into a building/store that was decorated for Hanukah, why would I be offended? Just because they didn't have Christmas stuff up? I guess I just don't get it.

 

[binny]

The tree is helping people, no matter what religion you believe or don't believe in they surely can't be against helping people can they?

If I went into a building/store that was decorated for Hanukah, why would I be offended? Just because they didn't have Christmas stuff up? I guess I just don't get it.

remember all those "why cant we all just get along" posts? THis is where this comes into play. If we could all just practice a little more tolerance this world would be a much better place.

 

[septbride2002]

Binny - you make a good point - but who is to be the tolerant one in this situation. The people who find the tree offensive or those that want the tree to stay?

~Amanda

 

[MB MinnieGirl]

This kind of crap is getting out of hand. People need to get a grip.

 

[septbride2002]

If it was a huge pentacle that had the names of needy families on it would you still agree?

~Amanda

 

[goofy4tink]

Okay....I find body piercings, other than ears (and one hole in each ear), to be offensive. Can I ask that people stop doing it?? THose tongue studs really make me nauseous. So, can we outlaw them? Yes, I know...a little drastic. But, lest we forget the principles this country was founded on. Most of the basic principles were Christian beliefs. No, I'm not saying that everyone should be Christian, but when we start being so 'over the top politically correct' we stand the chance of becoming very blah. Why in heaven's name can't you have a Christmas tree in a City Hall? If you want to ask that a Menorah be put up, fine with me. I can't imagine how any type of holiday decoration can insult someone so much. It's just a symbol for crying out loud!!!! You don't want to believe in God? Fine, I will defend your right to that belief to the death. Just don't ask those of a different persuasion than you to not show that belief!

When we take away the various holiday observances from school, we lose a terrific chance to educate our children. How else will they ever learn about differences? But, no...we don't want anyone to hear anything that might offend them. How can any type of education hurt anyone? It's ignorance that hurts us all in the long run.

So, our town has a huge Menorah on the common, along with a Christmas tree and many lights. If someone wants to build a pyramid and worship the sun god Ra, then I say go for it!!! Freedom of choice is what's it's all about in this country...not the curtailment of freedoms that may differ from yours.

 

[4greatboys]

Binny - you make a good point - but who is to be the tolerant one in this situation. The people who find the tree offensive or those that want the tree to stay?

~Amanda

The people offended by a tree--a tree need to get a life that not based on shutting away everything they dont like.

If it was a huge pentacle that had the names of needy families on it would you still agree?

~Amanda

You know it wouldnt bother me a bit. Its helping others. No one should really give a hang about it. I bet if their name was on that tree because they were under unforunate circumstances they'd be glad to have it there. Just because something is offensive to you (general you) doesnt mean it has to be removed. Im not Jewish but I can assure seeing Jewish things does not offend. Im not African American and Kwanza decorations dont bother me a bit. If its not for you then just gone on about your business.

What is more offensive is that these type of people expect us to remove everything from society that they find offensive.
Its just going way to far these days.

 

[septbride2002]

Okay....I find body piercings, other than ears (and one hole in each ear), to be offensive. Can I ask that people stop doing it?? THose tongue studs really make me nauseous. So, can we outlaw them? Yes, I know...a little drastic. But, lest we forget the principles this country was founded on. Most of the basic principles were Christian beliefs. No, I'm not saying that everyone should be Christian, but when we start being so 'over the top politically correct' we stand the chance of becoming very blah. Why in heaven's name can't you have a Christmas tree in a City Hall? If you want to ask that a Menorah be put up, fine with me. I can't imagine how any type of holiday decoration can insult someone so much. It's just a symbol for crying out loud!!!! You don't want to believe in God? Fine, I will defend your right to that belief to the death. Just don't ask those of a different persuasion than you to not show that belief!

No you cannot ask them to remove piercings because that is done on their person which is a private institution and can therefore express any belief, and practice on themselves no matter how barbaric it is. However the tree is in a government building. A government that is suppose to be seperate from religion. Now I agree with you - these people are taking it to far - especially since the Tree is not a Christian but rather a Pagan symbol that Christian religions adopted.

You know it wouldnt bother me a bit. Its helping others. No one should really give a hang about it. I bet if their name was on that tree because they were under unforunate circumstances they'd be glad to have it there. Just because something is offensive to you (general you) doesnt mean it has to be removed. Im not Jewish but I can assure seeing Jewish things does not offend. Im not African American and Kwanza decorations dont bother me a bit. If its not for you then just gone on about your business.

I'm glad to hear it wouldn't bother you. But what about your neighbor? Or your neighbor's sister. I think that it would offend a great deal of people and then would be taken down.

Do I believe this is pushing the bounds of political correctness - yes I do. However as I stated in my first point I can see both sides of the coin.

The people offended by a tree--a tree need to get a life that not based on shutting away everything they dont like.

Are we not then to respect people's feelings just because they don't fall in the majority?

~Amanda

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

It would be great if we celebrate holidays more ecumenically. I think it is great when faith groups open their doors to all during their celebrations.

It is funny that it is traditionally atheists and not the muslims or jewish or other faiths that typically speak out against anything Christmas.

It is a part of our culture, like it or not. It will always be. They aren't distributing bibles in front of the giving tree at City Hall--so they are NOT shoving religion down your throat. That, I agree, would be a problem if they did that!

 

[4greatboys]

septbride2002I understand the point that you are trying to make. My feelings on the whole thing is its okay to be occasionally offended by things. There is always someone, somewhere offended by something. What we need to teach our kids is tolerance and there doesnt seem to be much of that going around. People see a tree, or bible or whatever get offended and expect all of it to just be put away for their benefit. But what about the people that these "trees" bring hope and joy to? Dont they have just as much a right to see it and enjoy it?
I have seen offensive things before but I just went on my way. I didnt expect the world to stop and cater to me.

 

[Planogirl]

I have seen offensive things before but I just went on my way. I didnt expect the world to stop and cater to me.

Perfect!

Too many people want everything to be done THEIR way. Tolerance is in short supply nowadays.

Besides, the court ruled that a Christmas tree is a secular decoration. It's a cultural symbol and actually has little to do with Christ except that it was adopted as a decoration for the "feast" associated with Christ.

Much as eggs are associated with Easter now in fact. Why doesn't anyone ever want Easter eggs banned?

 

[septbride2002]

septbride2002I understand the point that you are trying to make. My feelings on the whole thing is its okay to be occasionally offended by things. There is always someone, somewhere offended by something. What we need to teach our kids is tolerance and there doesnt seem to be much of that going around. People see a tree, or bible or whatever get offended and expect all of it to just be put away for their benefit. But what about the people that these "trees" bring hope and joy to? Dont they have just as much a right to see it and enjoy it?
I have seen offensive things before but I just went on my way. I didnt expect the world to stop and cater to me.

Yes tolerance is key. But I think until the majority can show an open tolerance of the minority then we will not move beyond similiar subject matter. Thank you for the great discussion!

~Amanda

 

[raidermatt]

The majority show tolerance just fine, and this is a perfect example.

It only cheapens the cases when true injustices are being done.

And yes, until we get beyond cases like this, which are a huge waste of time and resources, progress will continue to be difficult.