At what point are adults responsible for themselves?

I work in a downtown ER and I see it all. Unfortunately, this stuff happens all the time. However, this guy really rubbed me the wrong way.

I took care of Mr X. He came in via EMS and his complaint was chest pain. His risk factors were high blood pressure, high cholesterol, diabetes AND he smoked a pack a day even though he'd had cardiac stents and a coronary bipass already. His insurance is Medicare and Medicaid.

Upon going over Mr Xs medications with him, he proceeded to tell me that he hadn't taken any of his home medications for a few days..:confused: When I asked him why, he replied that he wouldn't get his "check" until the first of the month. ( Just BTW, Mr X is younger than my Dad who still works full time ) He said he couldn't afford his medications. I then asked Mr X "Don't you have Medicaid/Medicare? He got angry and said I do, but the medicine still costs money you know.. Yeah, like $4.00 for a 30 day supply. ( And yes, I do know how expensive meds can cost, but his meds were ALL available in cheap generics that would cost less than $10.00 per day.) But, he can't afford them. But he CAN afford a pack of cigarettes a day.

I told the doctor about the med situation. He made me hold Mr X until the caseworker could fill all of his medications for free. :rolleyes1

Now, my question is. At what point does this adult male make the decision that I'd rather buy cigarettes than medication and we say, OK. Good luck? Why are we as taxpayers responsible to make sure he gets BOTH? I see it over and over and over again. And, like my opinion or not, if you CHOSE not to buy your meds and buy cigarettes instead, that is your problem. It really chaffed me to give him those free meds because he could afford them. He just wanted his smokes more.

Well, Mr X got his free meds and then told me he wanted me to call a cab and send him home on the hospitals buck too. Instead, I took him to the waiting room and sat him in a chair near the phone. I told him he could call anyone he wanted and I'm sure somebody would give him a ride but he wasn't getting a cab.

I'm sure I'll see him again within the month.
BTW, I hope you meant less than $10.00 per month because if you meant less than $10.00 per day (by your own estimate which could be wrong), that's a minimum of $275.00 to $300 extra per month. To someone on SS or food stamps, $300 per month is a lot of money.
 
Several people have asked, or alluded to, when does it end? Can a medical provider or facility refuse care to patients who go against medical advice?

Again, this issue has been kicked around in the medical community for a very long time. There are valid arguments on both sides. However, IME, it's been pretty rare to see anyone refused care because of "non-compliance".

Compliance in and of itself is thought to be a paternalistic term, and since patients are autonomous in their own health care decisions, they really can't be told what to do - to summarize, in a nutshell, much of what these arguments have been based on.

I can't speak for a medical practice, but in a hospital, in order for a patient to be denied care there would have to be a long history of ongoing non-compliance (yes, the term is still used) with resulting harm to self and ongoing health crises and subsequent hospitalizations, and an ethics board and legal departments would need to be involved as well as care teams from all health disciplines. In other words, it's a big and lengthy process. At least IME. And we're not talking because of simply smoking or eating salt. We're talking big, serious, multiple, ongoing issues.

At any rate, here's an article that I thought summed it up pretty well. People can disagree with it if they want to, but it is what it is. I think we can all trust that the great minds of medicine have wrestled with this issue forever (in other words, none of us here on the Dis are going to come up with a better solution tonight :laughing: ), and currently, this is their way of thinking.

Can Physicians Refuse Treatment to Patients Who Smoke?

Timothy M. Pawlik, MD, MPH,
Ian N. Olver, MD, PhD,
Courtney D. Storm, JD, MBE and
Maria Alma Rodriguez, MD

Timothy M. Pawlik, MD, MPH, is associate professor of surgery and oncology at Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD

Ian N. Olver, MD, PhD, is chief executive officer of the Cancer Council of Australia, Sydney, Australia

Courtney D. Storm, JD, MBE, is associate counsel of ethics and compliance at the American Society of Clinical Oncology, Alexandria, VA

Maria Alma Rodriguez, MD, is vice president of medical affairs at the M. D. Anderson Cancer Center, Houston, TX

Introduction

According to the Hippocratic tradition, the guiding principle for physicians is “first do no harm,” or nonmaleficence, which is closely followed by the obligation to “do good,” or beneficence.1 In Western medicine, much of medical ethics has been dominated by respect for individual patient autonomy. In their interactions with patients, physicians often go to great lengths to provide detailed information about the risks and benefits of medical treatments so that patients can make independent medical decisions consistent with their personal values and beliefs.

Enabling patients is particularly challenging when patients engage in behaviors or activities that are harmful to their health. Physicians and others may form negative judgments about these patients or suggest that they deserve fewer health care resources when such resources are scarce. Some have argued that cancer-related treatment may be refused to active smokers because smoking is an autonomous risk-taking behavior that is anathema to a comprehensive curative therapeutic approach. However, irrespective of the “rightness” of smoking behavior, physicians have a duty to offer all patients appropriate anticancer therapy and supportive care and to help their patients become tobacco free.

Case Study

A man 56 years of age presents with a 6-month period of weight loss, lethargy, cough, and right costal margin pain. When giving his medical history, the patient discloses that he has smoked one pack of cigarettes per day for 40 years. The patient's medical history includes a myocardial infarct, severe chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, and peripheral vascular disease. The patient is diagnosed with non–small-cell lung cancer with synchronous hepatic metastases and is referred to a medical oncologist to discuss his treatment options. The oncologist outlines the likely benefits of chemotherapy but expresses a strong reluctance to treat the patient if he continues to smoke. In refusing to treat the patient, the oncologist voices an objection to treating patients who will not stop engaging in the very activity that most likely caused their disease. In addition, she cites possible treatment complications resulting from the comorbidities associated with long-term tobacco use.

Smoking and Refusal of Treatment

Although professional ethics permit physicians to refuse to deliver nonemergent treatment if it conflicts with their personal, religious, or moral beliefs, this type of conscientious objection is usually reserved for controversial circumstances, such as the decision to perform an abortion or to withhold or withdraw life-sustaining treatment. Physicians are discouraged from refusing treatment simply because they disagree with their patients' decisions or lifestyles.

The authors contend that active smoking is not an appropriate basis for refusal of therapeutic treatment. Rather, oncologists and other physicians who maintain relationships with patients who smoke are in a unique position to help these patients reduce their dependence on tobacco. As noted in ASCO's recently published policy statement on the role of oncologists in cancer prevention and risk assessment,6 oncologists can provide patients who smoke with information about nicotine addiction and the link between smoking and cancer. Oncologists can also direct patients to appropriate support networks that address smoking cessation and to clinical interventions and pharmacotherapeutic cessation treatments, where appropriate. Most importantly, oncologists can use their regular contact with patients to consistently reinforce the importance of smoking cessation and to make sure patients have access to smoking cessation treatments that meet their individual needs.

Helping patients stop smoking is more consistent with physicians' affirmative duty to act in the best interest of patients than refusal of treatment. Furthermore, refusal to treat patients who smoke could have the harmful effect of delaying time-sensitive treatment while patients connect with new physicians. In addition, refusal to treat patients who smoke could have a detrimental impact on communication between physicians and patients, who might not provide complete information about their medical histories if it could be used against them.

Accounting for Smoking-Related Comorbidities and Risks

It is known that smoking-related comorbidities can make cancer treatment less effective, increase a patient's risk of complications related to treatment, and increase a patient's risk of development of other primary cancers. It is appropriate for physicians to take the comorbidities of smoking into account when determining how best to treat patients who smoke. For example, a patient who smokes and has chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and cardiovascular disease may not be an appropriate candidate for surgery or for certain chemotherapeutic regimens with known cardiac and pulmonary risks. Even if initial treatment is successful, continued smoking could make therapy less effective and increase risk of relapse. When a traditional risk-benefit analysis rules out standard treatments, the physician should continue to treat the patient in an appropriate manner, including by providing supportive care.

Smoking and Allocation of Health Care Resources

In light of the finite nature of health care resources, it has been argued that physicians should prioritize the treatment of nonsmoking patients over patients who smoke. However, this argument—that it is preferable to devote finite health care resources to treating patients who do not choose to engage in risk-taking and self-destructive behaviors—is difficult to sustain. Most patients engage in some behaviors that contribute to poor health. A physician who refuses care to smokers on this basis might, by logical extension, be compelled to refuse to treat patients who have other risky habits, such as consuming fatty foods, alcohol, or excessive sugar or failing to exercise. Ultimately, these judgments about risk-taking behaviors are not supported by morally or practically relevant distinctions. Although physicians are expected to be good stewards of scarce medical resources, allocation decisions should be made on the basis of the costs, benefits, effectiveness, and possible futility of treatments, not on assignment of blame.

One area to which it is inarguably important to devote health care resources is smoking cessation. Promoting a tobacco-free lifestyle is essential to preventing the need for costly cancer treatments. In addition, as the number of survivors of cancer continues to increase, it is important to stress that smoking cessation is critical to maintaining good health and lowering the risk of recurrences and secondary cancers. Although surveys show most oncologists discuss smoking cessation with their patients, physicians may not be aware that counseling patients about smoking cessation is reimbursable under Medicare.

Conclusion

In applying these arguments to the case study, it becomes clear that the oncologist cannot ethically refuse to treat the patient because he smokes. Rather, the oncologist should provide the patient with appropriate treatment that accounts for the patient's smoking-related comorbidities and includes an appropriate complement of supportive care. Furthermore, the oncologist should take advantage of every opportunity to discuss with the patient the importance of smoking cessation and help the patient access appropriate smoking-cessation resources.
 
Yeah, I caught that too and, frankly, it offended me tremendously. I'd hate to think of my 75 y/o father or mother (or any relative for that matter) being parked by the pay phone and told to "figure out how you're getting home" because they said or did something that offended the person who was being paid to take care of him/her. I'm surprised more people didn't call the OP on that particular bit of vengeance.

Don't know about you, but I don't pay $5.00 or $6.00 for a pack of cigarettes. No one I know does that. We roll our own which brings the price down to less than a dollar a pack. Much less than the cost of prescription medicines, even if they are "only" $4 each. For all we know the man in the OP may have been a RYO person.

No, what I got out of the OP's vent was that she doesn't approve of people who smoke and will use whatever little power she has to make their lives uncomfortable for them whenever she can. And then she'll vent about it to strangers.

To which I say "Fine". I think it's a win-win situation for everyone involved that she and I won't be experiencing each other in real life. Because if she'd done that to one of my loved ones (just about all of whom smoke) you'd better believe we'd be suing the hospital for neglect faster than you can say Call Lee Free.

You would lose your law suit, if you found a lawyer who would take the case.
 
At any rate, here's an article that I thought summed it up pretty well. People can disagree with it if they want to, but it is what it is. I think we can all trust that the great minds of medicine have wrestled with this issue forever (in other words, none of us here on the Dis are going to come up with a better solution tonight :laughing: ), and currently, this is their way of thinking.
:flower3: Thank you, Pea-n-Me! GREAT article! :flower3:
 

You would lose your law suit, if you found a lawyer who would take the case.
Suing a hospital in Michigan - easy. And we'd likely settle out of court so, yes, we'd likely find a lawyer more than willing to take the case.

No matter how you slice it, however, the costs to the hospital defending themselves in our bringing of a the lawsuit as a direct result of their employee's negligence (or perceived negligence) based on that employee's published (on an internet bulletin board) desire to 'teach that smoker a lesson' would likely result in that employee's losing his or her job.

Nice try, Art. :)
 
Suing a hospital in Michigan - easy. And we'd likely settle out of court so, yes, we'd likely find a lawyer more than willing to take the case.

No matter how you slice it, however, the costs to the hospital defending themselves in our bringing of a the lawsuit as a direct result of their employee's negligence (or perceived negligence) based on that employee's published (on an internet bulletin board) desire to 'teach that smoker a lesson' would likely result in that employee's losing his or her job.

Nice try, Art. :)

He was treated and sent on his way, there was no negligence.
 
I would imagine that if the man was forced to choose that he'd simply pick the cigarettes and be on his way. I pay taxes like everyone else and I still feel compassion for people strongly addicted to these things. I think that it's understandable to feel frustrated with people like this but I don't agree that cutting him off from all medical care is the answer either.

Someone mentioned hypnotism. I think that's a great idea but how expensive is that?
 
Someone mentioned hypnotism. I think that's a great idea but how expensive is that?

DH & I both quit smoking with hypnosis. It was the easiest thing in the world. We walked in badly addicted to nicotine... and walked out smoke free. It's been almost seven years and I've never touched another cigarette and I never will. I highly recommend hypnosis as an EASY way to quit smoking. It cost us $80 each, and we had individual sessions with the hypnotist. He guaranteed he could make you stop smoking or he'd give you half your money back. I do not recommend group sessions as I don't think they work as well. We had tried to stop smoking many times in the past, but hypnosis is the only thing that ever worked for us. :thumbsup2
 
Throw this into the mix:

Last year my workplace raised everyone's insurance premiums to smoker level -- it was a significant jump -- and those of us who wanted our rates lowered to non-smoker level had to sign something saying 1) we are not smokers. 2) we agree to submit to a cheek-swipe test at anytime to verify that we are not smokers. IF we are tested and fail the cheek-swipe test, we must pay back the difference in the insurance premiums PLUS a fine, and we risk losing our insurance altogether.

There's talk of doing BMI measure ments too.

Life insurance has been doing this for years.

This is what's happening to working taxpayers -- it's not just my employer who's doing these things. I'm not saying that I love the policy, but I do see the sense in it: People who are likely to draw more heavily on the insurance plan are being required to pay more.

It sounds this man (and others like him) is paying less AND no one is bothering him about whether or not he smokes. Why does he have MORE benefits than the people who are paying his way?

Personally, I think we have gone too far in the direction of entitlement, and we need to get back to some personal responsibility for our own choices -- whether that means smoking, overeating, or whatever. You can call it being judgemental all day long, but when you're asking other people to foot the bill, it looks an awful lot like common sense to me.
 
Throw this into the mix:

Last year my workplace raised everyone's insurance premiums to smoker level -- it was a significant jump -- and those of us who wanted our rates lowered to non-smoker level had to sign something saying 1) we are not smokers. 2) we agree to submit to a cheek-swipe test at anytime to verify that we are not smokers. IF we are tested and fail the cheek-swipe test, we must pay back the difference in the insurance premiums PLUS a fine, and we risk losing our insurance altogether.

There's talk of doing BMI measure ments too.

Life insurance has been doing this for years.

This is what's happening to working taxpayers -- it's not just my employer who's doing these things. I'm not saying that I love the policy, but I do see the sense in it: People who are likely to draw more heavily on the insurance plan are being required to pay more.

It sounds this man (and others like him) is paying less AND no one is bothering him about whether or not he smokes. Why does he have MORE benefits than the people who are paying his way?

Personally, I think we have gone too far in the direction of entitlement, and we need to get back to some personal responsibility for our own choices -- whether that means smoking, overeating, or whatever. You can call it being judgemental all day long, but when you're asking other people to foot the bill, it looks an awful lot like common sense to me.
And it will continue to look like common sense to you until they hit upon a lifestyle choice that you participate in such as birth control or even having children. I don't have kids so why should my premiums go up because you wanted to get pregnant? Why should my premiums go up because many kids are being born with allergies? Etc, etc, etc.

This is just an example. Not meant as a personal attack on anyone with kids.
 
And it will continue to look like common sense to you until they hit upon a lifestyle choice that you participate in such as birth control or even having children. I don't have kids so why should my premiums go up because you wanted to get pregnant? Why should my premiums go up because many kids are being born with allergies? Etc, etc, etc.

This is just an example. Not meant as a personal attack on anyone with kids.

:thumbsup2

We are seeing this now. I live near a town called Runnemeade. Runnemeade is a developed community (meaning it was built in the 70's) so most of it's residents are seniors or empty nesters. They are consistenly calling for revisals of the township tax code because they say they are tired of paying high property taxes for schools when they have no kids. Our school board consist of 3 regions.

So of course in a tit for tat move, my townships answer to that is that they want a break on the portion of the property taxes that funds the senior community center and the free vans that take seniors to the doctors.

:confused3
 
And it will continue to look like common sense to you until they hit upon a lifestyle choice that you participate in such as birth control or even having children. I don't have kids so why should my premiums go up.
I have a very close friend who deals with addiction - she has a zilllion credentials that certify her as an addiction specialist. And yet she smokes. She cannot handle this addiction even though she has COPD and has a lot of help at her disposal. I've seen her try to quit.

I believe there is a genetic component to addiction. My late father and all of his siblings were born in the 20s. My dad was even in WWII where the military was given free cigarettes with their rations. One of my uncles even grew tobacco. But NONE of them were smokers. My dad probably had a few dozen (less than 100) cigarettes in his life time. I truly believe that genetically they were just not prone to addiction. I have never smoked (I am very old - 64) nor have my siblings or any of the next generation.

Decades ago (literally probably 30 years) I had a friend who challenged our company's medical benefits. They provided for prenatal care, termination, and all sorts of neonatal care - but only if you were married! My friend is ultra conservative, and I would be willing to bet that she "waited" until after marriage - but she knew this was wrong on principle.
 
No it isn't. You want to make it different to justify obesity. The result is the same. A drain on the healthcare system.

Yes it is different. If people don't eat, they die eventually.
Smoking is not in any way a life-maintaining habit. eating is.

Now do I think someone should be using food stamps to buy a lot of crap food? No I don't. I think food stamps should only be able to be used to purchased good, nutritious food.

In theory OP, I agree with you. I am a nurse too, & see the same you described all the time. Someone who does not follow medical instructions and runs into trouble and here we go again....

However, in practice, it's a slippery slope. I always worry about the slippery slope in healthcare, because it is so easy to go down it....

The unfortunate fact of life is that there are essentially 2 types of people in the world....givers and takers. There are always going to be lazy people who don't want to work and think society should take care of them (and no I'm not talking about those who are dsiabled and can't work, so don't all jump on me) and society will take care of them. Think about it....even if we made a rule that if you didn't follow the MDs instructions, then you'd lose your Medicare/Medicaid, then what would happen when that person was having a heart attack? They'd have no insurance, they'd still come to the hospital and we'd still be caring for them because it's not like any hospital is going to look at someone having a heart attack and turnt hem away.
 
Throw this into the mix:

Last year my workplace raised everyone's insurance premiums to smoker level -- it was a significant jump -- and those of us who wanted our rates lowered to non-smoker level had to sign something saying 1) we are not smokers. 2) we agree to submit to a cheek-swipe test at anytime to verify that we are not smokers. IF we are tested and fail the cheek-swipe test, we must pay back the difference in the insurance premiums PLUS a fine, and we risk losing our insurance altogether.

There's talk of doing BMI measure ments too.

Life insurance has been doing this for years.

This is what's happening to working taxpayers -- it's not just my employer who's doing these things. I'm not saying that I love the policy, but I do see the sense in it: People who are likely to draw more heavily on the insurance plan are being required to pay more.

It sounds this man (and others like him) is paying less AND no one is bothering him about whether or not he smokes. Why does he have MORE benefits than the people who are paying his way?

Personally, I think we have gone too far in the direction of entitlement, and we need to get back to some personal responsibility for our own choices -- whether that means smoking, overeating, or whatever. You can call it being judgemental all day long, but when you're asking other people to foot the bill, it looks an awful lot like common sense to me.
BMI measurements? Wow, I bet that a lot of people won't like that.
 
I have 2 issues,
First, as many people have stated taxes are the price we pay for the ability to make the choices we do. Was it fair for me to fund a war in Iraq when I was vehemently opposed to it? that wasn't a neccessity. Not to get into that argument, my point is, if we are going to claim we love our "freedoms" as much as we say we do, then unfortunately it means paying for some really irresponsible people.
So if you feel you have a choice about what to fund (you don't want your taxes to go to people who you feel are making life style choices you oppose, I don't want my taxes to go to a illegal war enterprise) then every one should get that choice. Once again, very slippery slope.

Next,
Is there some standard that a poor person has to reach before we deem them "worthy" enough?
I hear this "cell phone" argument all the time against the poor. They can have a cell phone only if it has the features we deem as "poor approved" which apparently means no texting or no internet services.
So what are the rules, they have to have ripped torn clothing in order to qualify for food stamps.

I 100% agree that there are abuses in the system. I see it, in my volunteer work with the working poor and I know every one here on the dis knows some one who has a cadillac escalade and goes to wdw 4X's a year while on welfare. :rolleyes: but I challenge anyone to spend a month down at the local food bank or human resource department and see exactly who all these so called people living "la vida Loca off of my tax dollars" really are.

Been there done that. Have done the food bank thing, the homeless shelter feeding the poor etc. I feel badly for the people...many of them are quite sad and pitiful.

Being pitiful does not change the fact that there are some folks who avail themselves of the local soup kitchen and then walk in and take out thier iPhone and start talking.

I do not own an iPhone because it's not an expense I choose to incur right now. And yet this person who apparently cannot afford food chooses to get this expensive phone and then pay for it monthly. Do they need a cell phone? Ok, I'll give them that...do they need one of the most expensive cell phoneson the market? No. If I can live without it, certainly they can.
 
Suing a hospital in Michigan - easy. And we'd likely settle out of court so, yes, we'd likely find a lawyer more than willing to take the case.

No matter how you slice it, however, the costs to the hospital defending themselves in our bringing of a the lawsuit as a direct result of their employee's negligence (or perceived negligence) based on that employee's published (on an internet bulletin board) desire to 'teach that smoker a lesson' would likely result in that employee's losing his or her job.

Nice try, Art. :)

You would need to prove negligence and damages. What were the damages? He was treated and got the meds for free? :confused3
 
But where do you stop? Should you drop everyone who is overweight? Everyone who doesn't exercise? Everyone who doesn't eat their fruits and veggies? Anyone who's ever had an addiction? or mental illness?
You talk about an entitlement class - does that mean everyone is entitled to health care except those who smoke? Where would you draw the line???

I am NOT at all saying that the other things you listed are things that we should feel judgmental about or try to make that type of "line in the sand" about but I want to point something out that about what you said that really bothers me. Someone chooses to overeat at least initially even if it later becomes an addiction. Unless someone has a physical reason why they can't, they choose not to exercise. Someone chooses to not eat fruits and vegetables. Someone at least initially chooses something that later becomes an addiction. Not judging, I am in some of those categories myself, just want to point out that at least initially, at least on some primitive level, those are choices. We ALL make bad choices, we ALL do. BUT mental illness is categorically not the same. People do not choose to have a mental illness so it should not be used in the same reasoning. A person may choose not to comply with treatment, but many who do comply continue to suffer and it is not a matter or choice.
 


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