At DLR now, a few thoughts UPDATED with additional thoughts p.2

[NVDisMom]

It is now at 925,000 and may hit 1 million before year end. See:

"New Al Lutz: AP Holders Nearing 1 Million, Captain EO to Return in Feb" http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2342227

One must wonder how many of these AP's are So Cal and how many are Regular and Premium? My family of four are part of this AP family. We hold regular APs and come every couple of months on average spending 2-5 days there each visit. We live 7 hours away, so we get a hotel room every time. We do not impact the parking situation at all, as our car doesn't move the entire trip. How many of the nearing amillion pass holders in a similar situation as us? I would think Nevada and Arizona residents would make up a sizable chunk.

I'm saddened to see so many complaints about DL relating to crowds. Crowds are WHY California Adventure is getting World of Color, Carsland, etc. AP holders tend to be loyalists who give honest opinions on what can be done to improve the parks. They may not spend as much per trip, but they probably spend more overall. DL knows APs are their bread and butter, for better or for worse. Would we prefer to see an empty park with severly cut entertainment offerings, hours and ride closures? Or a flourishing atmoshere that is begging for more?

The 1990's visitor flow models aren't accurate any longer. So figure out the new norm and work with it.

 

[DisneyMomma81]

Don't forget UT AP holders ~ we're on our 2nd year of APs! I've never even driven to Disneyland ~ well this past July I did (from San Diego to Anaheim) but the car never left HoJo's parking lot until we left to head back to San Diego.

 

[HydroGuy]

One must wonder how many of these AP's are So Cal and how many are Regular and Premium? My family of four are part of this AP family. We hold regular APs and come every couple of months on average spending 2-5 days there each visit. We live 7 hours away, so we get a hotel room every time. We do not impact the parking situation at all, as our car doesn't move the entire trip. How many of the nearing amillion pass holders in a similar situation as us? I would think Nevada and Arizona residents would make up a sizable chunk.

I'm saddened to see so many complaints about DL relating to crowds. Crowds are WHY California Adventure is getting World of Color, Carsland, etc. AP holders tend to be loyalists who give honest opinions on what can be done to improve the parks. They may not spend as much per trip, but they probably spend more overall. DL knows APs are their bread and butter, for better or for worse. Would we prefer to see an empty park with severly cut entertainment offerings, hours and ride closures? Or a flourishing atmoshere that is begging for more?

The 1990's visitor flow models aren't accurate any longer. So figure out the new norm and work with it.

My understanding is that 90-95% of the AP holders are of the cheaper, So Cal variety (of which as you know there are two types).

I think most of us around here understand the value of the AP holders. But until DLR changes things I will not visit any longer unless it is during a SoCal blackout period. In my mind it is not so much the AP holders making things crowded, but the ones who come for a few hours and have the mind set that they can devote disproportionate amounts of time to new things like Nemo Subs, TSM, POTC refurb, Fantasmic refurb, etc. This really drives up wait times for the latest and greatest beyond what you would see, for example, and the Florida parks. It is also the same mind set that has people camping out over night in the Esplanade. For sure this is a small percentage of AP holders, but that small percentage is very dedicated and can add up to many thousands of people!

I personally have no ethical problem with what the AP holders are doing. My problem is a practical one in that I cannot compete with them because their different priorities and flexibility. Further, if I lived closer to DLR you can bet I would be one of them.

 

[pixiewings71]

Don't forget the Nor Cal APers either......We get a hotel every time because we drive from 6 hrs away......we just spent 5 nights, we are going back in just over a week for another 6, then again for New Years......we do park sometimes but not every time. And we do have Premium APs so yes, we've spent a pretty penny going to DLR the past couple of years.

Alvernon, we saw plenty of those hoodies in DCA, over on the boardwalk in the tee shirt shop.

 

[Sleepless Knight]

First off, it's always nice to read a thoughtful critique of what Disneyland does not do well as opposed to "it's smaller than WDW, therefore it's lame." I've seen too many of the latter around the web.

Before touching on APs, I'm not bashing anyone who can and chooses to go the SoCal AP route. I'm just observing why those cheap passes could wreak havoc on the current business model.

As for the AP issue, I hope (or maybe I'm just deluding myself) that Disneyland has started to get a handle on the situation. I'm seeing a lot more SoCal blockout dates than I have in the past. DLR needs to find the proper balance. Returning crowds are nice, but if those local APs stop in for a few hours, spend very little, if any, money, and drive the tourists away, Disney may pay a very steep price in the future because they'll be left with heavy crowds and light spending once people are inside the parks.

 

[sonnyjane]

I personally have no ethical problem with what the AP holders are doing. My problem is a practical one in that I cannot compete with them because their different priorities and flexibility. Further, if I lived closer to DLR you can bet I would be one of them.

I'm glad you said this, because I really value your opinions on this board, and after this thread I was beginning to feel guilty for having an annual pass! I opted for the Premium for parking, discounts, and blackout day purposes, but if I hadn't needed a pass during a time that was blacked out on the SoCal passes, I would have definitely taken advantage of the option, as it was almost a third of the cost of a PAP.

I guess what I just want to say to everyone is that it's fine to be upset with DLR for how they handle the situation, or for providing the passes at too much of a discount, but please don't be upset with people like me take advantage of the passes. I love living close enough to the park to be able to go and visit for a day, and I hate to hear that it's "people like me" that are ruining the experience for the rest of you I don't mean to, honest!

 

[jlmarr]

Could it be that things are particularly bad this year because the incremental cost from the free birthday pass is so low that a lot of people are buying a SoCal pass that have never had an AP before? If that's the case then the problem will taper off (a bit) over the next year.

That being said, my Premium AP is expiring this Saturday and I'm not renewing for a while. We don't go as often because of the crowds.

 

[disney-super-mom]

I'm glad you said this, because I really value your opinions on this board, and after this thread I was beginning to feel guilty for having an annual pass! I opted for the Premium for parking, discounts, and blackout day purposes, but if I hadn't needed a pass during a time that was blacked out on the SoCal passes, I would have definitely taken advantage of the option, as it was almost a third of the cost of a PAP.

I guess what I just want to say to everyone is that it's fine to be upset with DLR for how they handle the situation, or for providing the passes at too much of a discount, but please don't be upset with people like me take advantage of the passes. I love living close enough to the park to be able to go and visit for a day, and I hate to hear that it's "people like me" that are ruining the experience for the rest of you I don't mean to, honest!

I think most agree that it's the current CoCal AP "system" creating the problem....not the actual people who have the SoCal APs. The people are just using the APs the way they were meant to be used. There's nothing wrong with that. I would do the same if I lived there. But, like HydroGuy said, the rest of us (the people who come once or twice a year) can't really compete with nor have the flexibility of the local AP holders.

 

[Kittyskyfish]

Could it be that things are particularly bad this year because the incremental cost from the free birthday pass is so low that a lot of people are buying a SoCal pass that have never had an AP before? If that's the case then the problem will taper off (a bit) over the next year.

That being said, my Premium AP is expiring this Saturday and I'm not renewing for a while. We don't go as often because of the crowds.

It may be based on the economy. Right now we're in the business cycle trough and for many (local) people, they're trying to save money and still have some fun. An AP is much less expensive than going out of town for vacation. And much less expensive in the long run than to go out to dinner and see movies every weekend. And DL is so gorgeous during the holidays, it'd be silly not to go often and enjoy the atmosphere! I would if I could!

Another thing on the AP issue: when DH and I lived in Tampa, we had APs to Busch Gardens. Just like the CA locals who go to DL for a few hours, we did the same thing at BG. Sometimes we would go there just for the fried chicken at the Crown Colony and catch a ride or two, then go home. Because we lived nearby, there wasn't a benefit to stay all day because we didn't have any travel time invested.

 

[nunzia]

One must wonder how many of these AP's are So Cal and how many are Regular and Premium? My family of four are part of this AP family. We hold regular APs and come every couple of months on average spending 2-5 days there each visit. We live 7 hours away, so we get a hotel room every time. We do not impact the parking situation at all, as our car doesn't move the entire trip. How many of the nearing amillion pass holders in a similar situation as us? I would think Nevada and Arizona residents would make up a sizable chunk.

I'm saddened to see so many complaints about DL relating to crowds. Crowds are WHY California Adventure is getting World of Color, Carsland, etc. AP holders tend to be loyalists who give honest opinions on what can be done to improve the parks. They may not spend as much per trip, but they probably spend more overall. DL knows APs are their bread and butter, for better or for worse. Would we prefer to see an empty park with severly cut entertainment offerings, hours and ride closures? Or a flourishing atmoshere that is begging for more?

The 1990's visitor flow models aren't accurate any longer. So figure out the new norm and work with it.

I'd really like to see the breakdown as well. I have an AP (Deluxe, not Premium), and I'm a NM visitor, so only come twice a year. On years when I only come once I won't get an AP.
I don't want to see an empty park, but I also don't want DLR to turn into a locals only place, with tourists being discouraged about unmanageable crowds. It seems there could be a happy medium. I really think the So CA APs are too cheap for the amount of days they can be used.
To the OP, I really don't think people are blaming tha AP holders, as we'd all do the same, but the system is clearly flawed. Bringing in people is a good thing, but can certainly be overdone.

 

[S. S. Columbia]

... If we're going during July 4th or Christmas for example, crowds are going to be crazy. ...

The AP blockout dates have changed some of the traditional crowd patterns.

This year, July 4th (and Thanksgiving) had manageable crowds.

 

[S. S. Columbia]

Thanks for taking the time to write this thread, although I have a minor comment...

... Enjoying the parade (6 out of 10 stars) in reserved seating was also great. ...

You said that you enjoyed the Christmas Fantasy Parade, but you only rated it a 6 (out of 10)?

FWIW, I think most people would give the Christmas Fantasy Parade a higher rating.

 

[DangerMouse]

Thanks for taking the time to write this thread, although I have a minor comment...


You said that you enjoyed the Christmas Fantasy Parade, but you only rated it a 6 (out of 10)?

FWIW, I think most people would give the Christmas Fantasy Parade a higher rating.

I would! My second favorite parade after DEP!

Sing with me now . . . "IT'S A CHRISTMAS FANTASY!!"

 

[alvernon90]

A couple of clarifications:

1. I am not a parade person, so I gave the Christmas parade a 6 based on a scale where the most fun thing in the world is a 10. Compared to other parades, it is probably much higher. As it was, I found it to be an amusing diversion, but I certainly wouldn't wait two hours on a curb to see it.

2. I hope I did not give anyone the impression that I think AP holders are somehow bad people or are "ruining" Disneyland. I myself have an AP, as do my family members. We got the Costco deluxe passes because, with the gift cards and the discounts, it was cheaper than getting regular passes. That's the point, and the problem from my perspective.

Locals taking advantage of the cheap APs are doing exactly what Disney is inviting them to do, and there is nothing wrong with that. But as a lot of people have pointed out -- and I don't think it can be seriously disputed -- it changes the vibe of the parks. You have a large number of visitors (half or more, if Al Lutz can be believed) who do not think of their time at the parks as quite as precious as out-of-town visitors do. They can come back any time, and they will.

In my observations, this has led to a number of inversions beyond the inversion of formerly busy days (Thanksgiving, Saturday) now being less busy because the cheap APs are blocked out. I also noticed that Magic Morning is more crowded than a regular morning, lines are longer for rides that are newer/recently refurbished than for the big E tickets, and it can be harder to get a churro than to get a table at a sit-down restaurant.

This is the way Disney wants it, and the people who are pleased to take advantage of it have my blessing. Go for it, if that is what you like. I'm only saying that for me, an infrequent visitor, I would rather go to WDW where almost everyone is an out-of-town guest and the experience is therefore more geared to the out-of-towners.

I had a lovely time at DLR. We got lucky and picked a great time to go. But the place is changing into a hangout for locals, and in the future I'd rather visit a vacation destination.

Thanks to everyone for the thoughtful comments. I am glad I did not accidentally start a food fight.

 

[disfan07]

and whats funny is that we know a couple of people from socal who went to DL on thanksgiving and teh day after and said it was not crowded at all

We've been 4 times since we got our PAPs last dec.
We went:
Dec 25th-27th- moderately crowded
June 26th-28th- moderately crowded
Oct. 24th-25th- 24th was very crowded but 25th was empty
August 11th-13th- empty

We're going again on dec26th-28th this year.

The only day we waited for more than 25 minutes for anythign was on october 24th. and except for that day, we have just not found it extremely crowded anytime we were there. Maybe we've been lucky.

 

[HydroGuy]

and whats funny is that we know a couple of people from socal who went to DL on thanksgiving and teh day after and said it was not crowded at all

We've been 4 times since we got our PAPs last dec.
We went:
Dec 25th-27th- moderately crowded
June 26th-28th- moderately crowded
Oct. 24th-25th- 24th was very crowded but 25th was empty
August 11th-13th- empty

We're going again on dec26th-28th this year.

The only day we waited for more than 25 minutes for anythign was on october 24th. and except for that day, we have just not found it extremely crowded anytime we were there. Maybe we've been lucky.

If you read Al Lutz he explains pretty well what is happening:

"New Al Lutz: AP Holders Nearing 1 Million, Captain EO to Return in Feb" http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?p=34547558

Also, at first glance but without checking dates it appears all of your moderate/low crowds were on days that SoCal APs were blocked out, and your very crowded days were when they were not blocked out. Which confirms what Al is saying and many others on this forum.

 

[HydroGuy]

2. I hope I did not give anyone the impression that I think AP holders are somehow bad people or are "ruining" Disneyland. I myself have an AP, as do my family members. We got the Costco deluxe passes because, with the gift cards and the discounts, it was cheaper than getting regular passes. That's the point, and the problem from my perspective.

Locals taking advantage of the cheap APs are doing exactly what Disney is inviting them to do, and there is nothing wrong with that. But as a lot of people have pointed out -- and I don't think it can be seriously disputed -- it changes the vibe of the parks. You have a large number of visitors (half or more, if Al Lutz can be believed) who do not think of their time at the parks as quite as precious as out-of-town visitors do. They can come back any time, and they will.

In my observations, this has led to a number of inversions beyond the inversion of formerly busy days (Thanksgiving, Saturday) now being less busy because the cheap APs are blocked out. I also noticed that Magic Morning is more crowded than a regular morning, lines are longer for rides that are newer/recently refurbished than for the big E tickets, and it can be harder to get a churro than to get a table at a sit-down restaurant.

This is the way Disney wants it, and the people who are pleased to take advantage of it have my blessing. Go for it, if that is what you like. I'm only saying that for me, an infrequent visitor, I would rather go to WDW where almost everyone is an out-of-town guest and the experience is therefore more geared to the out-of-towners.

I had a lovely time at DLR. We got lucky and picked a great time to go. But the place is changing into a hangout for locals, and in the future I'd rather visit a vacation destination.

Thanks to everyone for the thoughtful comments. I am glad I did not accidentally start a food fight.

It appears to me that the SoCal AP issues have really only been issues for the last three years or so. Before that it was there but not that noticeable. Now it seems to have taken over.

If someone like me without an AP plans to only visit DLR when the SoCal APs are blocked out, that seems to be exactly what Disney would want. Better crowd distribution throughout the months.

I think it is really strange though to see the days after Thanksgiving being less crowded than the days before. Totally contrary to historical experience.

 

[LavenderPeach]

I also noticed that Magic Morning is more crowded than a regular morning,

This seems strange to me since it doesn't seem like it goes along with the theory that local AP holders are crowding the parks. Since most locals probably just go for day trips they would either have APs or one day park hoppers and probably aren't staying on-site so I would assume MM is crowded with out-of-town vacationers. Maybe this was just a separate observation but the way it was worded made me think that OP was saying locals are crowding MM. Not trying to argue just wondered how this fit into the local vs. vacationer issue.

Also, OP, glad you had a fun time and thanks for posting your observations.

 

[alvernon90]

This seems strange to me since it doesn't seem like it goes along with the theory that local AP holders are crowding the parks. Since most locals probably just go for day trips they would either have APs or one day park hoppers and probably aren't staying on-site so I would assume MM is crowded with out-of-town vacationers.

Yeah, it seems weird to me too. All I know is that we went for MM on Tuesday and the lines to get in stretched all the way to the candy cane letters in front of DCA. The next day, Wednesday, the lines to get in at 9:30 (park officially opens at 10) were very short, and the lines on the rides were shorter in the morning.

I think this is probably explained by the fact that locals tend not to show up at the parks first thing in the morning (especially on weekdays) so the crowds build throughout the day, but all hotel guests and multi-day ticket holders try to take advantage of MM. Add to that the fact that only two lands are open during MM, so all of the people are cramming onto a few rides, and you have the counterintuitive situation we encountered.

Of course, it could also have been a freak occurrence. After all, I only compared one MM to two non-MM days in the slow season, merely an anecdote as opposed to real data.

 

[alvernon90]

If someone like me without an AP plans to only visit DLR when the SoCal APs are blocked out, that seems to be exactly what Disney would want. Better crowd distribution throughout the months.

This is all well and good, probably not a bad plan at all. It is just hard for us out-of-towners to take the plunge and go against 50 years of experience if we are planning our trips to avoid crowds. After all, not all blockout dates are going to be low crowd days -- I expect the week after Christmas to be crazy as usual.

I remember one time, years ago, standing in line at DL talking to a local and his son. He said the best time to come to DL is "a Wednesday in October" because the park is absolutely dead. Today that would be the worst possible advice to give. Who knew that "a Saturday in July" would become the best day to go to DL??