Article: Song of the South

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>>how would you feel watching this film if you were an african american child? Do you think it would be uncomfortable?<<

Who made you their spokesperson/censor?

Rather than making huge, broad assumptions about how said children will react to and interpret the past, and a-priori deciding what they can and can't view, why don't you give them the opportunity to make their OWN interpretations of the film, should they choose to view it?
 
First off, let me say (since I haven't gone on record) that I don't think our society needs to be "protected" from Song of the South. This is probably much more about image and political correctness for Disney than it is about societal issues. That being said, off on a tangent we must gooooooooooooo.............
but showing a film set close to the times of the Civil War with a jovial black man that is not filled with hatred for white people and helps a white child is vile and disgusting.
I'm no historian, but I have seen enough, and talked to enough people who were quite fluent on the politics of the South at the time of the war, to have the impression that not all blacks at the time had a hatred for white people and some actually cared a good deal for the families they were owned by. Perhaps it was because they didn't know how oppressed they truely were, but I bet there were some who were happy with their situation. I'm not sure that all white slave owners abused their slaves. I have also seen accounts that as far as quality of life was concerned, in the short term many slaves were worse off after being freed. Of course their freedom would lead to greater things in their future, but at the time......................

I'm in no way advocating slavery, don't get that impression, but to imply that any portrayal of slaves that does not include hatred and discontent for their white owners and their families would be vile and disgusting is no more accurate than a film that shows Uncle Remus skipping amongst the flowers without a care in the world.
 

I never said I was a spokesperson for anyone - I'm not sure why that question upset you or why you won't answer the other questions that have been asked of you.

It would be fine to allow people to make their own interpretations of this film if this film accurately portrayed the subjects involved.
 
>>it is about marketing something which fuels negativity. <<

Yep, that's right. "Song Of The South" is literally hate speech.

It's o.k. for gansta rappers to "sing" about beating, raping and murdering "hoes" on MTV (does that produce any "negativity - naw), but Walt is roasting in hell for producing that bigoted, horrific version of African American folklore in 1946.
 
It would be fine to allow people to make their own interpretations of this film if this film accurately portrayed the subjects involved.
Just a side question.................but if every film that was ever released had to 'accurately portray the subjects involved', how many do you think would have ever made it to print? A pretty small library's worth don't 'cha think ;).
 
This is an interesting point, and I am not a historian either. I was always brought up to believe this, and told things very similar. However, I know a little bit (again, not a historian) that people are really re-thinking this view, which gained a lot of momentum during the 1920s. 1930's and 1940's (the generation or two after the war developed an apologitic view of it). Have you heard of the slave narratives? During the wpa projects of the 1930s, interviewers traveled the south interviewing those former slaves who were still living. The interviews are catalogued in the library of congress, and my understanding is that the interviews don't really support that point of view.

However, I would agree with you that not all slaves hated their masters, not all masters were cruel, and certainly large numbers of slaves stayed on as sharecroppers of their former plantations after the war. Were there many situations like in SOTS were the black folks happily deferred to serve the white folks for no apparent reward, as if it was just their lot in life, the norm?

Again, though, this isn't aboug banning, censoring, whatever. It isn't the government not releasing this film. It isn't the liberal conspiracy not releasing the film. It isn't me or Melissa or AV not releasing the film. It is about a company deciding what is in their best interest to release.
 
>>Just of couple of articles about GWTW controversy. <<

Interesting, but all of them focus simply on a single book and exhibit that discuss the sociology of the film. None of the links you provided show ANY efforts by any groups to boycott, ban or prevent the sale and distribution of Gone With The Wind.

Again, no one here has provided ANY proof of organized GROUP efforts to "ban" either this or Song Of The South.
 
>>Again, though, this isn't aboug banning, censoring, whatever.<<

I beg to differ.

Disney removed this film from distribution because of DIRECT pressure from outside groups, particularly the NAACP. Eisner et. al. didn't simply wake up one morning and think "gee, Song Of The South may bother somebody, so let's bury it." No, they REACTED to DIRECT OUTSIDE PRESSURE BY SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS.
 
Originally posted by mikeymars
>>it is about marketing something which fuels negativity. <<

Yep, that's right. "Song Of The South" is literally hate speech.

It's o.k. for gansta rappers to "sing" about beating, raping and murdering "hoes" on MTV (does that produce any "negativity - naw), but Walt is roasting in hell for producing that bigoted, horrific version of African American folklore in 1946.

Mike. Will you please seriously think about why you keep coming up with straw men arguments and answering questions with questions instead of just coming down to it and answering the question that you've been asked at least three times on this thread:

Do you think there are racist stereotypes in this film or not?

When I said that there were "outdated stereotypes" in it, you said that I was writing in leftest code. When I suggested that the film be accompanied by documentaries discussing media stereotypes in the 1940s and of the history such as the civil rights movement between the 1940s and now you called such material "liberal propaganda."

So do you think that there are outdated stereotypes in it or not?

Please just answer yes or no without saying that something else has more stereotypes or that X number of people want to see the film (FWIW, I am one of the people who signed that petition and voted for it at disney.com), and just answer the question.
 
"I'm no historian, but I have seen enough, and talked to enough people who were quite fluent on the politics of the South at the time of the war, to have the impression that not all blacks at the time had a hatred for white people and some actually cared a good deal for the families they were owned by. Perhaps it was because they didn't know how oppressed they truely were, but I bet there were some who were happy with their situation. I'm not sure that all white slave owners abused their slaves. I have also seen accounts that as far as quality of life was concerned, in the short term many slaves were worse off after being frred. Of course their freedom would lead to greater things in their future, but at the time......................"

Well that makes it okay then :rolleyes:

I'd like to see someone present that explanation to a group of african american children. You shouldn't be offended by a tar baby - after all, not all slaves had it so bad!

Look I'm not really much of a PC person, but I do believe that without the proper context and explanations, SOTS can be extrememly hurtful to certain children or people.
 
Originally posted by mikeymars
>>Again, though, this isn't aboug banning, censoring, whatever.<<

I beg to differ.

Disney removed this film from distribution because of DIRECT pressure from outside groups, particularly the NAACP. Eisner et. al. didn't simply wake up one morning and think "gee, Song Of The South may bother somebody, so let's bury it." No, they REACTED to DIRECT OUTSIDE PRESSURE BY SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS.

I beg to differ with your urban legend.

From http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/sots.htm
The NAACP acknowledged "the remarkable artistic merit" of the film when it was first released, but decried "the impression it gives of an idyllic master-slave relationship". Disney re-released the film in 1956, but then kept it out of circulation all throughout the turbulent civil rights era of the 1960s. In 1970 Disney announced in Variety that Song of the South had been "permanently" retired, but the studio eventually changed its mind and re-released the film in 1972, 1981, and again in 1986 for a fortieth anniversary celebration. Although the film has only been released to the home video market in various European and Asian countries, Disney's reluctance to market it in the USA is not a reaction to an alleged threat by the NAACP to boycott Disney products. The NAACP fielded objections to Song of the South when it premiered, but it has no current position on the movie.


(although it is kind of funny since you asked Melissa a few posts ago why she thinks she can represent African-American children, and here you dismiss the NAACP as a special interest group.).
 
This is exactly the position the child porn industry thrives on.

There are indeed legal limits to free speech - a common example used is you can't yell fire in a crowded theatre. Child porn is not legal - for various reasons that I choose not to go into here. So it doesn't deserve defense.

And indeed there was a fair amount of "free speech" that I defended that I personally didn't think should have been defended - but as soon as we stop defending all of it - we will lose all of it.

I agree with one thing though - Song of the South isn't being held in the vault because Disney thinks it's release will cause "the South to Rise Again!". It's because they just don't want the aggravation.

Actually it's just another sign of lack of creativity at Disney - why not release it on DVD with all kinds of special features that explain things? Commentaries, documentaries - any number of things spring to mind.
 
Originally posted by mikeymars

Again, no one here has provided ANY proof of organized GROUP efforts to "ban" either this or Song Of The South.

So what was your point again? Oh yeah

Originally posted by mikeymars
Disney removed this film from distribution because of DIRECT pressure from outside groups, particularly the NAACP. Eisner et. al. didn't simply wake up one morning and think "gee, Song Of The South may bother somebody, so let's bury it." No, they REACTED to DIRECT OUTSIDE PRESSURE BY SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS.

PS, I know this is just one of your straw men and everything, but again, I don't remember anyone sying that there was an effort to "ban" GWTW, I remember them saying there was controversy over it (this was after it was said that there was no controversy about this film).
 
"DIRECT OUTSIDE PRESSURE BY SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS"

Funny, isn't that exactly what you are promoting by all the references to all those thousands of people signing this petition or that one? Aren't you now just another special interest group forcing Disney to do something?

I deal with political correctness, ratings issues and censorship in all its various forms almost every working day of my life.

I find there is very little that separates those demanding action based solely on emotional reactions - one way or another. One group’s hated lie is another group's sacred truth, yet both demand the other give way to their version of reality.

With freedom comes responsibility. We must accept that our actions impact and influence others. I believe what I chose to believe, I must also respect the beliefs of others. But my freedom does not allow me to prevent from expressing their beliefs or - to compel them to express any belief if they choose not to.

The decision about releasing Song of the South is, rightly or wrongly, in the hands of Disney management. To demand that they put out the movie through pressure tactics and fear and threats is just as wrong as those who are forcing the movie into the shadows by pressure tactics and fear and threats.

There is nothing preventing you from reading Uncle Remus to your children. Considering a lot of those works are now in the public domain, there’s nothing preventing you from going out and making your own movie about them. So – go enjoy the ultimate freedom.

Think for yourself.
 
"to "ban" GWTW, I remember them saying there was controversy over it (this was after it was said that there was no controversy about this film)."


Wasn't a lot of the contraverasy over Rhett Bulter stating "Frankly Scarlet, I don't give a damn".
 
And indeed there was a fair amount of "free speech" that I defended that I personally didn't think should have been defended - but as soon as we stop defending all of it - we will lose all of it.

I understand your point. My comment was to bring us back in line a bit here. Casual Observer was correct in that assumption.

I don't believe we will ever lose the right to freedom in this country - otherwise we certainly wouldn't be afforded the luxury of sounding off so eloquently on these forums.

You have it right. The company is probably avoiding the aggravation it will cause to release this film. Hence my opening remarks at the beginning of this exceptionally invigorating thread.

Mikeymars: what else can I say except:

It's o.k. for gansta rappers to "sing" about beating, raping and murdering "hoes" on MTV (does that produce any "negativity - naw), but Walt is roasting in hell for producing that bigoted, horrific version of African American folklore in 1946.

This one really speaks to me! You're right - another example of what's eroding the moral sanctity of our country. SOTS is no where near as offensive as what is being happily displayed as entertainment today. But if it's too problematic for the company to distribute then it's just not going to happen. Sorry.
 
Well that makes it okay then
Sheesh, Melissa. IMHO, you are the last one who should use words like 'proper context' with posts like this one :rolleyes:. First, use that little context thingie and look at my post again. The context was to dispute the idea that an accurate portrayal of slaves during that time would be to have them all hating and reviling the white man. Heck, many did and they all probably should have, but I'm not sure that was the case. So, put on your context glasses and read again ;). Oh, and secondly you might want to pay attention to the part right after what you decided to quote (out of context) where I point out that that didn't make slavery right and that I don't support it :rolleyes:.
The interviews are catalogued in the library of congress, and my understanding is that the interviews don't really support that point of view.
I get your point d-r, and I agree with you. The anecdotal evidence will show that a far greater percentage of slaves were very displeased with being slaves. I suppose my only point (that some apparently missed) was that anything presented only in the extreme is not exactly an accurate depiction. To present all blacks as having a severe hatred for all whites during the time of the Civil War is probably not the best way to portray history, just like Uncle Remus doesn’t fairly present the average black slave in that day either (although it probably wouldn’t have been that hard to find a grandfatherly slave at the time who was kind to the children of his master, quite a testament to not holding the sins of the father against the son).

I suppose this is slightly OT, but my brother (a Yank) and a few others I have met (including some Rebs) are big into Civil War re-enacting. Folks don’t go into that lightly. Most have studied the Civil War period in great detail. It is very interesting some of the things you learn when you get them talking, and let me tell you – they like to talk :crazy:. It does make you see both sides in some different ways. This may be fodder for the debate board, but while I believe the Union cause was by far the correct one, there may have been some principles the Confederacy upheld that might have been superior.

I hear what you are saying about what is in the archives. However, as you say, you had heard whispers of contrary opinions as well. You know what they say about smoke………..so perhaps there is some truth on both sides. Again, I agree that the vast majority of slaves didn’t want to be slaves, who would? One thing that is interesting is that I don’t think that that black regiments were that common during the war. Yes, the Union army did try to keep them from fighting during a good part of the war. I’m sure many southern blacks were weary of taking up arms for fear the North could lose the war and what the repercussions would be if they fought. However, I think (again, not being a historian I could be wrong) that the majority of slaves that did take up arms were from more northern areas. I have even heard Confederate propaganda that says some southern slaves supported the Confederate cause :eek:, although I don’t know how true that is. You would think that if all slaves during the time were so displeased and harbored such hatred they would have jumped at the chance to take up arms. Of course it was a complicated time. I have to say, it is a fascinating piece of our history.

In the end, I believe you are right. The release or non release of this film has very little to do with the politics of slavery or the oppression of blacks during the Civil War period and beyond. Many times we let entertainment be just that, and don’t attach more significance. When it comes to anything that even remotely touches on the history of African Americans in this country we are unable to do that, for good reason. After all, in the big scheme of things it wasn’t that long ago that people were relegated to the back of the bus. Heck, some of the things I hear today that happen down south make me shudder.

I still think that Song of the South should be released, and when viewed in the proper context can be both appreciated for what it is, and used to teach people about the past. Not all teaching aids have to be an ‘accurate representation’, sometimes they can be used to say ‘this is not how it was, and perhaps shows a level of insensitivity as to what actually was happening’. I think we are an evolved enough nation to be able to survive the dangers of this film. However, so long as Disney is more concerned with demonstrations, protests, and negative publicity (which is fair for them to do), this movie will likely remain under wraps. I’ve never seen the film from start to finish and doubt I’d be the first in line to buy it, so it doesn’t matter one way or the other to me. However, Splash Mountain is my fave WDW ride, so perhaps I should reconsider…………
 
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